Teenager found dead at center

[Whooter]

My point being not to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs but merely to place it into perspective and to caution not give the false impression that programs are unsafe.

Oh, but your point *IS* to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs.

I supplied facts and figures.  If you feel this minimizes the abuse which occurred within residential treatment centers then this is your personal take.  But it is not my intent.  I think it is important to look at and post as much information as is available so the reader can make an informed decision themselves.

The "impression" that PROGRAMS ARE UNSAFE is a true one!

I guess we can see it is a relative term.  To the kid who is abused at home by his parents and ends up in a program which doesnt abuse him then programs are defined as a safe haven for him.  To the kid who is abused in a program the programs can be defined as abusive.  So anyone could research and supply a news article to support their own position by siting individual examples.  But this is not any more accurate or effective then providing articles of Columbine High school to try to persuade someone that all Public schools are dangerous for a child to attend, (as I demonstrated in another thread).  For awhile I was posting an article each day which showed a different public school employee being arrested for child abuse.  I did this to demonstrate that I could easily just provide negative information about public schools to give the impression that child predators overrun the public school system.  But if you step back you can see that the school system is much safer than the individual articles that I posted.  This is the point I am making with the posts you have placed out there.  You are intentionally misleading the readers.

What I did was to step back and look at the larger picture which shows an overwhelming number of abuses occurring in this country outside of programs and I think it is important to look at all the data not just the few occurrences inside of programs.



...

[RobertBruce]

Once again Whooter you're wasting everyone's time and Ginger's bandwidth. This questions was settled years ago. When comparring the TBS side by side with Public Schools, no matter how you try and spin the numbers the Public Schools come out safer. Now you're attempting to do what you attempted several years ago. The obligation for a childs safety ends for the public schools the moment the child leaves to go home. Something that happens to a child at home, on the weekend, during summer vacation has nothing to do with public school safety. TBS however lock kids down 24 hours per day, and are therefore respondsible for their safety 24 hours a day.

[DannyB II]

My point being not to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs but merely to place it into perspective and to caution not give the false impression that programs are unsafe.

Oh, but your point *IS* to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs. The "impression" that PROGRAMS ARE UNSAFE is a true one!

Anytime you practice coercion as a form of behavior modification, not to mention put kids in control of other kids' progress or punishment, you're gonna have some "unintended consequences." And that is assuming the best of circumstances.[/b]

Ok, I have held back for a long time Ursus, reading your unsubstantiated, always outdated rubbish you throw up on these pages, your like looking at a "time warp of useless information" as to what is going on now, present time. Most of you here constantly regurgitate old info and try to correlate it to today. Never taking into consideration that the "new programs today", have learned from there outdated abusive ancestors. The programs that refuse to abandon the methodologies of the past are falling by the wayside, along with there abusive practices.

This whole concept that peer pressure is bad,  Bla Bla Bla!!!!!, well get over it. Peer pressure is through out the entire working and social environment. For any of you who work for a living, try getting away from peer pressure. Try to skirt around being coerced by either your boss or fellow workers. Though it maybe subtle when it comes from workers, it is not by the boss. Your families practice a certain degree of coercion and punish you for unfulfilled chores/responsibilities.

Kids dealing with other kids, unless you were a only child and lived in a bubble, kids have been running a good deal of your adolescent life. If you played sports, boys scouts, any school drama, music, theater, debate team, political science teams, you would know about peer pressure and coercion, it is a part of adolescent life.

Most of these kids were talking about today have checked out of society, their suffering depression, there not going to school, some are taking drugs, acting out in a hostile manner.
Placing them in a setting where they will face peer pressure and coercion from other kids in a structured setting that is over seen by qualified  staff is not a destructive measure.  
Many kids need to be able to deal with these pressures to make it in society. Then begin to learn social skills, learn to stay engaged even when they feel like wanting to run away, learn that there self esteem does not need to be attached to how many kids like you or how they look at you, begin to believe that through hard work and working with others relationships are forged. They ascertain that they need people in order to discover knew ideas, they begin to trust there fellow workers/students.

WTNY said it well, he has no proof, he can not get inside and witness. What I have to ask myself, does anyone here have the credentials, schooling and practice to honor such a invitation. No company in there right mind would let just anybody wonder around their entity. You may ask, "well if they have nothing to hide", that is irresponsible and anyone with common sense knows this.
 
I suggest if you want into a certain program, go undercover, become a staff member. Find a way to get hired. It has been done before. Become a "whistle blower", take your case to the proper authorities.
Come on Ursus, DJ, Paul, None-Ya, Anne, Frodie, Buzz Kill, Che and the rest of you freedom fighters. Go get them, infiltrate. Put your ass where your mouth is.
I reckon that between all of you folks here, if you were to get hired on, could have at least 1/2 dozen programs shut down by this time next year. I say this because according to all you folks, every program out there is abusive.
So come on, get to work. I would surmise that in 3 maybe 4 years you folks should have all the major Corps. shut down and who knows how many independents.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

I suggest if you want into a certain program, go undercover, become a staff member. Find a way to get hired. It has been done before. Become a "whistle blower", take your case to the proper authorities.
Come on Ursus, DJ, Paul, None-Ya, Anne, Frodie, Buzz Kill, Che and the rest of you freedom fighters. Go get them, infiltrate. Put your ass where your mouth is.

I've been telling these faggots to do this for years! It's a lack of testicular fortitude, lack of willingness to put time into it (most of us have well, y'know, real jobs), general apathy, and the fact that a couple of them would probably psychologically snap, stop playing "infiltration", and start playing "FPS". BTW, at least two of the people in that list (DJ and Che) have worked in them, although they were just working and not infiltrating properly with hidden recording equipment and flash drives.

Hey chuckleheads, even fucking Danny told you to do it. Go do it.

(in b4 "no you go do it Pile")

[Ursus]

My point being not to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs but merely to place it into perspective and to caution not give the false impression that programs are unsafe.

Oh, but your point *IS* to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs. The "impression" that PROGRAMS ARE UNSAFE is a true one!

Anytime you practice coercion as a form of behavior modification, not to mention put kids in control of other kids' progress or punishment, you're gonna have some "unintended consequences." And that is assuming the best of circumstances.[/b]

Ok, I have held back for a long time Ursus, reading your unsubstantiated, always outdated rubbish you throw up on these pages, your like looking at a "time warp of useless information" as to what is going on now, present time. Most of you here constantly regurgitate old info and try to correlate it to today. Never taking into consideration that the "new programs today", have learned from there outdated abusive ancestors. The programs that refuse to abandon the methodologies of the past are falling by the wayside, along with there abusive practices.

This whole concept that peer pressure is bad,  Bla Bla Bla!!!!!, well get over it. Peer pressure is through out the entire working and social environment. For any of you who work for a living, try getting away from peer pressure. Try to skirt around being coerced by either your boss or fellow workers. Though it maybe subtle when it comes from workers, it is not by the boss. Your families practice a certain degree of coercion and punish you for unfulfilled chores/responsibilities.

Kids dealing with other kids, unless you were a only child and lived in a bubble, kids have been running a good deal of your adolescent life. If you played sports, boys scouts, any school drama, music, theater, debate team, political science teams, you would know about peer pressure and coercion, it is a part of adolescent life.

Most of these kids were talking about today have checked out of society, their suffering depression, there not going to school, some are taking drugs, acting out in a hostile manner.
Placing them in a setting where they will face peer pressure and coercion from other kids in a structured setting that is over seen by qualified  staff is not a destructive measure.  
Many kids need to be able to deal with these pressures to make it in society. Then begin to learn social skills, learn to stay engaged even when they feel like wanting to run away, learn that there self esteem does not need to be attached to how many kids like you or how they look at you, begin to believe that through hard work and working with others relationships are forged. They ascertain that they need people in order to discover knew ideas, they begin to trust there fellow workers/students.

WTNY said it well, he has no proof, he can not get inside and witness. What I have to ask myself, does anyone here have the credentials, schooling and practice to honor such a invitation. No company in there right mind would let just anybody wonder around their entity. You may ask, "well if they have nothing to hide", that is irresponsible and anyone with common sense knows this.
 
I suggest if you want into a certain program, go undercover, become a staff member. Find a way to get hired. It has been done before. Become a "whistle blower", take your case to the proper authorities.
Come on Ursus, DJ, Paul, None-Ya, Anne, Frodie, Buzz Kill, Che and the rest of you freedom fighters. Go get them, infiltrate. Put your ass where your mouth is.
I reckon that between all of you folks here, if you were to get hired on, could have at least 1/2 dozen programs shut down by this time next year. I say this because according to all you folks, every program out there is abusive.
So come on, get to work. I would surmise that in 3 maybe 4 years you folks should have all the major Corps. shut down and who knows how many independents.

Most of the "new programs today" use pretty much the exact same modalities that the old programs did, they're just a lil slicker in their application and certainly so ... as far as their marketing is concerned (oh, and let's not forget that there's always new lingo that can be layered in). Using the group to force conformity onto potentially errant individuals is nothing new, which I imagine you would know given how much a fan you are of TC modalities. And while one might think that personal suffering at the hands of abusers in that "therapeutic milieu" would make a person more sensitive to just how damaging that system can be, apparently not so, in your case.

Your simplistic interpretation of "peer pressure" and "coercion" would be laughable save that it appears you really believe it. It reminds of me of how GGI and PPC used to be described in the literature, giving corny examples of "the way it works," leaving out all evidence of just how easy it is to game that system ... if you are a pathologically-minded abusive manipulator of others, just the sort of person that is supposed to be most "helped" by such a system. Lol.

[DannyB II]

My point being not to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs but merely to place it into perspective and to caution not give the false impression that programs are unsafe.

Oh, but your point *IS* to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs. The "impression" that PROGRAMS ARE UNSAFE is a true one!

Anytime you practice coercion as a form of behavior modification, not to mention put kids in control of other kids' progress or punishment, you're gonna have some "unintended consequences." And that is assuming the best of circumstances.[/b]

Ok, I have held back for a long time Ursus, reading your unsubstantiated, always outdated rubbish you throw up on these pages, your like looking at a "time warp of useless information" as to what is going on now, present time. Most of you here constantly regurgitate old info and try to correlate it to today. Never taking into consideration that the "new programs today", have learned from there outdated abusive ancestors. The programs that refuse to abandon the methodologies of the past are falling by the wayside, along with there abusive practices.

This whole concept that peer pressure is bad,  Bla Bla Bla!!!!!, well get over it. Peer pressure is through out the entire working and social environment. For any of you who work for a living, try getting away from peer pressure. Try to skirt around being coerced by either your boss or fellow workers. Though it maybe subtle when it comes from workers, it is not by the boss. Your families practice a certain degree of coercion and punish you for unfulfilled chores/responsibilities.

Kids dealing with other kids, unless you were a only child and lived in a bubble, kids have been running a good deal of your adolescent life. If you played sports, boys scouts, any school drama, music, theater, debate team, political science teams, you would know about peer pressure and coercion, it is a part of adolescent life.

Most of these kids were talking about today have checked out of society, their suffering depression, there not going to school, some are taking drugs, acting out in a hostile manner.
Placing them in a setting where they will face peer pressure and coercion from other kids in a structured setting that is over seen by qualified  staff is not a destructive measure.  
Many kids need to be able to deal with these pressures to make it in society. Then begin to learn social skills, learn to stay engaged even when they feel like wanting to run away, learn that there self esteem does not need to be attached to how many kids like you or how they look at you, begin to believe that through hard work and working with others relationships are forged. They ascertain that they need people in order to discover knew ideas, they begin to trust there fellow workers/students.

WTNY said it well, he has no proof, he can not get inside and witness. What I have to ask myself, does anyone here have the credentials, schooling and practice to honor such a invitation. No company in there right mind would let just anybody wonder around their entity. You may ask, "well if they have nothing to hide", that is irresponsible and anyone with common sense knows this.
 
I suggest if you want into a certain program, go undercover, become a staff member. Find a way to get hired. It has been done before. Become a "whistle blower", take your case to the proper authorities.
Come on Ursus, DJ, Paul, None-Ya, Anne, Frodie, Buzz Kill, Che and the rest of you freedom fighters. Go get them, infiltrate. Put your ass where your mouth is.
I reckon that between all of you folks here, if you were to get hired on, could have at least 1/2 dozen programs shut down by this time next year. I say this because according to all you folks, every program out there is abusive.
So come on, get to work. I would surmise that in 3 maybe 4 years you folks should have all the major Corps. shut down and who knows how many independents.

 
Most of the "new programs today" use pretty much the exact same modalities that the old programs did, they're just a lil slicker in their application and certainly so ... as far as their marketing is concerned (oh, and let's not forget that there's always new lingo that can be layered in). Using the group to force conformity onto potentially errant individuals is nothing new, which I imagine you would know given how much a fan you are of TC modalities. And while one might think that personal suffering at the hands of abusers in that "therapeutic milieu" would make a person more sensitive to just how damaging that system can be, apparently not so, in your case.

Your full of crap. All this dramatic milieu does not make it true. Stop projecting your experience of 30 years ago on everyone else. Jeesh, ever heard of "latent tendencies", paranoia and pathologies, Ursus get some help.  

Your simplistic interpretation of "peer pressure" and "coercion" would be laughable save that it appears you really believe it. It reminds of me of how GGI and PPC used to be described in the literature, giving corny examples of "the way it works," leaving out all evidence of just how easy it is to game that system ... if you are a pathologically-minded abusive manipulator of others, just the sort of person that is supposed to be most "helped" by such a system. Lol.

Well if laughing help you then laugh, please have a good ole belly breaker on me. Because I am sick and tired of hearing your rubbish. Your old, your ideas are old and you are the problem with this industry. Ursus I would take you seriously, I really would if you could just get out of your own "experiences".

Yes, Ursus, I do believe in what I am saying because I know it first hand to be true. Where as in your case you don't. You have not one iota of proof of anything your saying concerning new programs today. Nothing I have read shows where you have gotten off your butt and gone out on done some real investigating. The only time you know anything is if someone comes on here an posts or if a incident happens at a program and it is written about or a investigative journalist provides a article. Otherwise you know nothing.
Oh, you want to dazzle the crowd with your so called "sources", well everyone has folks who either still work in the TC community, works for a Gov't agency, Social services, Court employees, PO's, Lawyers, Journalists, Regulators for the Licensing of such programs ect.......As I said everyone has sources but most of us also do the grunt work.
From what I've read here, that you have posted, shows that you don't have many sources, you are what we call a "reactionary poster" you make your living feeding off of other anonymous, information.
Something unconditional or in most cases conditional happens and you react, almost like " Ivan Pavlov's Theory",

"The theory of Pavlov",
The dogs he used showed a salivation response when they where offered food (unconditional stimulus). The food was offered a number of time with the sound of a buzzer (conditional stimulus). After this, the sound of the buzzer alone could produce the salivation response".

Are the horns blowing Ursus, are you salivating. Just because your salivating Ursus, does not mean your hungry. Just because the article says a child was hurt does not mean it was abuse.

[Ursus]

My point being not to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs but merely to place it into perspective and to caution not give the false impression that programs are unsafe.

Oh, but your point *IS* to minimize any abuse that occurs in programs. The "impression" that PROGRAMS ARE UNSAFE is a true one!

Anytime you practice coercion as a form of behavior modification, not to mention put kids in control of other kids' progress or punishment, you're gonna have some "unintended consequences." And that is assuming the best of circumstances.[/b]

Ok, I have held back for a long time Ursus, reading your unsubstantiated, always outdated rubbish you throw up on these pages, your like looking at a "time warp of useless information" as to what is going on now, present time. Most of you here constantly regurgitate old info and try to correlate it to today. Never taking into consideration that the "new programs today", have learned from there outdated abusive ancestors. The programs that refuse to abandon the methodologies of the past are falling by the wayside, along with there abusive practices.

This whole concept that peer pressure is bad,  Bla Bla Bla!!!!!, well get over it. Peer pressure is through out the entire working and social environment. For any of you who work for a living, try getting away from peer pressure. Try to skirt around being coerced by either your boss or fellow workers. Though it maybe subtle when it comes from workers, it is not by the boss. Your families practice a certain degree of coercion and punish you for unfulfilled chores/responsibilities.

Kids dealing with other kids, unless you were a only child and lived in a bubble, kids have been running a good deal of your adolescent life. If you played sports, boys scouts, any school drama, music, theater, debate team, political science teams, you would know about peer pressure and coercion, it is a part of adolescent life.

Most of these kids were talking about today have checked out of society, their suffering depression, there not going to school, some are taking drugs, acting out in a hostile manner.
Placing them in a setting where they will face peer pressure and coercion from other kids in a structured setting that is over seen by qualified  staff is not a destructive measure.  
Many kids need to be able to deal with these pressures to make it in society. Then begin to learn social skills, learn to stay engaged even when they feel like wanting to run away, learn that there self esteem does not need to be attached to how many kids like you or how they look at you, begin to believe that through hard work and working with others relationships are forged. They ascertain that they need people in order to discover knew ideas, they begin to trust there fellow workers/students.

WTNY said it well, he has no proof, he can not get inside and witness. What I have to ask myself, does anyone here have the credentials, schooling and practice to honor such a invitation. No company in there right mind would let just anybody wonder around their entity. You may ask, "well if they have nothing to hide", that is irresponsible and anyone with common sense knows this.
 
I suggest if you want into a certain program, go undercover, become a staff member. Find a way to get hired. It has been done before. Become a "whistle blower", take your case to the proper authorities.
Come on Ursus, DJ, Paul, None-Ya, Anne, Frodie, Buzz Kill, Che and the rest of you freedom fighters. Go get them, infiltrate. Put your ass where your mouth is.
I reckon that between all of you folks here, if you were to get hired on, could have at least 1/2 dozen programs shut down by this time next year. I say this because according to all you folks, every program out there is abusive.
So come on, get to work. I would surmise that in 3 maybe 4 years you folks should have all the major Corps. shut down and who knows how many independents.

Most of the "new programs today" use pretty much the exact same modalities that the old programs did, they're just a lil slicker in their application and certainly so ... as far as their marketing is concerned (oh, and let's not forget that there's always new lingo that can be layered in). Using the group to force conformity onto potentially errant individuals is nothing new, which I imagine you would know given how much a fan you are of TC modalities. And while one might think that personal suffering at the hands of abusers in that "therapeutic milieu" would make a person more sensitive to just how damaging that system can be, apparently not so, in your case.

Your full of crap. All this dramatic milieu does not make it true. Stop projecting your experience of 30 years ago on everyone else. Jeesh, ever heard of "latent tendencies", paranoia and pathologies, Ursus get some help.

Your simplistic interpretation of "peer pressure" and "coercion" would be laughable save that it appears you really believe it. It reminds of me of how GGI and PPC used to be described in the literature, giving corny examples of "the way it works," leaving out all evidence of just how easy it is to game that system ... if you are a pathologically-minded abusive manipulator of others, just the sort of person that is supposed to be most "helped" by such a system. Lol.

Well if laughing help you then laugh, please have a good ole belly breaker on me. Because I am sick and tired of hearing your rubbish. Your old, your ideas are old and you are the problem with this industry. Ursus I would take you seriously, I really would if you could just get out of your own "experiences".
 
Yes, Ursus, I do believe in what I am saying because I know it first hand to be true. Where as in your case you don't. You have not one iota of proof of anything your saying concerning new programs today. Nothing I have read shows where you have gotten off your butt and gone out on done some real investigating. The only time you know anything is if someone comes on here an posts or if a incident happens at a program and it is written about or a investigative journalist provides a article. Otherwise you know nothing.
Oh, you want to dazzle the crowd with your so called "sources", well everyone has folks who either still work in the TC community, works for a Gov't agency, Social services, Court employees, PO's, Lawyers, Journalists, Regulators for the Licensing of such programs ect.......As I said everyone has sources but most of us also do the grunt work.
From what I've read here, that you have posted, shows that you don't have many sources, you are what we call a "reactionary poster" you make your living feeding off of other anonymous, information.
Something unconditional or in most cases conditional happens and you react, almost like " Ivan Pavlov's Theory",

"The theory of Pavlov",
The dogs he used showed a salivation response when they where offered food (unconditional stimulus). The food was offered a number of time with the sound of a buzzer (conditional stimulus). After this, the sound of the buzzer alone could produce the salivation response".

Are the horns blowing Ursus, are you salivating. Just because your salivating Ursus, does not mean your hungry. Just because the article says a child was hurt does not mean it was abuse.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Keep wasting your time, Danny. Ya have not even a clue.

Speaking of Pavlovian reactionaries, however, I've noticed that you spend considerable time and effort on posting some rather wretched rants in response to several posters here, whether or not you even understand what folks are talking about. One could well ask: do you salivate at opportunities to indiscriminately trash others?

 :seg:

[DannyB II]

Ursus wrote:
Keep wasting your time, Danny. Ya have not even a clue.

Speaking of Pavlovian reactionaries, however, I've noticed that you spend considerable time and effort on posting some rather wretched rants in response to several posters here, whether or not you even understand what folks are talking about. One could well ask: do you salivate at opportunities to indiscriminately trash others?

Ursie, I love it when you call me stupid. Thank you. I've had your number, baby, since the year you got here.

[Ursus]

Ursus wrote:
Keep wasting your time, Danny. Ya have not even a clue.

Speaking of Pavlovian reactionaries, however, I've noticed that you spend considerable time and effort on posting some rather wretched rants in response to several posters here, whether or not you even understand what folks are talking about. One could well ask: do you salivate at opportunities to indiscriminately trash others?

Ursie, I love it when you call me stupid. Thank you. I've had your number, baby, since the year you got here.

Ah... but I didn't call you "stupid," Danny, nor was I thinking along those lines. There are many reasons for not being able to understand something ... that have nothing to do with native intelligence. You must have someone else's number in your Rolodex.  

[teresap989]

New hope website:

http://www.newhopetreatment.com/home.htm


Do you think the staff restrained him for complaining about chest pain?

This is a "so-called" psychiatric treatment center but..... read who they won't accept:

New Hope is generally able to admit and treat adolescents whose behaviors  are such that they do not require excessive restraint or seclusion for their assaultive or destructive behaviors. Although in some cases we do accept and treat youth with histories of documented physical aggression, we cannot serve extremely aggressive residents who are likely to put other residents or staff at risk or who regularly disrupt the treatment of others.

Adolescents who are actively psychotic or have an Axis II personality disorder, autism, or pervasive developmental disorders are generally not appropriate for our programs.

http://www.newhopetreatment.com/admissions/criteria.htm

Such a very amazing link!
Thanks you for the post.





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