Author Topic: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry  (Read 4445 times)

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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2010, 10:33:27 AM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
But I never abused anybody .


Can you prove you never abused anybody?

this conversation is pointless.


Why pointless? If we’ve learned anything it is that he term abuse is used highly subjectively in the case of the TTI because there is no clear definition of it in that context. Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs. At one time tobacco was sold as a safe product and marketed to children, but whoops aw shucks, sorry I accused all you dying cancer victims of lying. Maybe we do need a disclaimer on the box and enough informed consent to make a decision, and they should prove their product is safe.

Quote
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
[/b]

The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.

(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2010, 04:13:54 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Awake"
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.
I disagree. What's understood by the mental health field to be psychological abuse has not yet been fully accepted by the courts as actionable, save in inordinately extreme cases. Moreover, the emotional trauma entailed in merely having to present one's case adds yet another layer of damage many are unwilling or unable to put themselves through.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
Have you checked with the various other personages you have posting as DannyB II? Y'all haven't always been the best at keeping abreast of each other's posting and editing activities, at least it's appeared as such in the past...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2010, 06:38:41 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Awake"
Shadyacres put it best by saying that the law has not caught up with science in being able to establish what is or is not abuse in the case of programs.
The laws are just fine and science is as subjective as always. What we need is education and reasonable enforcement.
I disagree. What's understood by the mental health field to be psychological abuse has not yet been fully accepted by the courts as actionable, save in inordinately extreme cases. Moreover, the emotional trauma entailed in merely having to present one's case adds yet another layer of damage many are unwilling or unable to put themselves through.

Quote from: "DannyB II"
(whoever is erasing my posts here, at least have the @#$$% to email me, as to ?)
Have you checked with the various other personages you have posting as DannyB II? Y'all haven't always been the best at keeping abreast of each other's posting and editing activities, at least it's appeared as such in the past...

I don't know why you are disagreeing, I thought one of your biggest complaints was lack of enforcement of the regulations by "bought off" good ole boys. Ursus I sincerely doubt if the court system will intervene any time soon to tackle the psychological abuse issue. They have not done it in 60 years. It would mean lots of money, enormous amount of time with studies ect... I am not saying this should not be done, I don't believe it will. Intent would be the biggest hurdle.

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that everyone that was using my user name is no longer allowed. I did not like where we were going. So I ended it. For the past 2 weeks and from here out it will be only me. I would have hoped you would have noticed. Outside of the one caustic response I gave you for asking me for personal info, you have seen who I am and what I will be. Not a bad guy, like to post personal info for the benefit of others but will not stand for unwarranted attacks on the info I put out. Yes Ursus, unwarranted attacks can look like you asking me a question concerning my info. You know why.
So lets just not get personal.....:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2010, 02:58:15 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


I said no such thing and you know this, yet continue to push your outright lies.


Here's where you said the hotline was a bad idea.


Quote from: "TheWho"

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely.  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.



So, where's the link to me saying anything close to what you say I did?



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.


Hmmm, here's Whooter - yet again - altering posts to make them appear to say something that the original poster didn't intend.   Then again, as you said.....you don't care about your credibility (we need an "obvious" emoticon)

Quote from: "Whooter"

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31256&start=90#p380469

Look, I dont care about credibility, Samara, (I say what I say)


And you wonder why people think you're such an ass.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: ? is Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2010, 03:17:05 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


I said no such thing and you know this, yet continue to push your outright lies.


Here's where you said the hotline was a bad idea.


Quote from: "TheWho"

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible.  The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely.  The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2.  How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

See, Anne, you still never bothered to read the conversation.  I never said it was a bad idea because the guy on the hotline could talk dirty to them.  I was stating that just like the kid who needs to report abuse to the same person who abused him, the guy on the hotline could talk dirty to him, but highly unlikely...  If you read further I stated my ideas for how we could determine if a hotline would be a good idea.

If you want to take peoples words out of context then you should expect the same treatment back.  This is why people dont take you seriously or believe everything you say.

I really dont know, to this day, if a hotline would be effective or not.  I think it is a good discussion, though.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2010, 03:21:16 PM »
If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

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Re: Whooter's trolling outta his cupola
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2010, 03:30:07 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Hmmm, here's Whooter - yet again - altering posts to make them appear to say something that the original poster didn't intend.
Yep. Here's the post where I asked for a link from... Whooter (not from you):


    Originally posted on 25 Sep 2010, post titled "Whooter's trolling outta his cupola":
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.
    Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
    Link, please?

    I do not recall Anne saying that "programs are helpful in most cases." Nor do I recall her "embellishing" any events from program.
    [/list]
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline Anne Bonney

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #82 on: September 27, 2010, 03:32:41 PM »
    Quote from: "Maximilian"
    If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

    So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

    Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    traight, St. Pete, early 80s
    AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

    The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

    Offline Maximilian

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #83 on: September 27, 2010, 03:35:02 PM »
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    Quote from: "Maximilian"
    If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

    So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

    Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.

    The way you extract your own version of what people say from something that doesn't even mention what you are talking about is very interesting. Read my post more carefully and you might understand them better.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline Anne Bonney

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #84 on: September 27, 2010, 03:39:12 PM »
    Quote from: "Maximilian"
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    Quote from: "Maximilian"
    If there was a hotline in the program I was at, I would have picked it up and claimed anything and everything in an attempt to get out. I imagine that is why they don't exist, because kids in programs will do anything to get out, including lying about being abused to the operator on the other end of the line. The police or whoever the hotline connected to would disconnect it a couple days after it was activated for this reason, after receiving hundreds of false alarms and prank calls from the kids, I guarantee it.

    So, because you would lie that means that all adults who were kids in a program that say they were abused are lying?

    Strange way to look at things, but it gives us an insight into your thought process.

    The way you extract your own version of what people say from something that doesn't even mention what you are talking about is very interesting. Read my post more carefully and you might understand them better.


    I read it again and came up with the same thing.  Can you elaborate to help me further understand your position?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    traight, St. Pete, early 80s
    AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

    The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

    Offline Whooter

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #85 on: September 27, 2010, 03:52:05 PM »
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

    I read it again and came up with the same thing.  Can you elaborate to help me further understand your position?

    In a program it was stated that the person to whom you need to report abuse to could be the abuser.  I stated that the person answering the abuse hotline phone could talk dirty to the kid, but was highly unlikely.  The hotline people could have training and hiring issues also and get the wrong people in.

    The discussion is how do we keep these kids safe.  There is no full proof way, they  need to hire the right people.

    I never stated the hotline was a bad idea.  I just don’t know if it would be effective or not and bad people can surface in any profession or job.



    ...
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline Anne Bonney

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #86 on: September 27, 2010, 03:57:19 PM »
    Why shouldn't the TTI be held to this standard of care?


    http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/ ... ights.aspx


    Patient Bill of Rights

    Mental Health Bill Of Rights Project

    A Joint Initiative of Mental Health Professional Organizations:
    Principles for the Provision of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Treatment Services

    A Bill of Rights
    Our commitment is to provide quality mental health and substance abuse services to all individuals without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, gender, age, sexual orientation, or disabilities.

    Right to Know

    Benefits
    Individuals have the right to be provided information from the purchasing entity (such as employer or union or public purchaser) and the insurance/third party payer describing the nature and extent of their mental health and substance abuse treatment benefits. This information should include details on procedures to obtain access to services, on utilization management procedures, and on appeal rights. The information should be presented clearly in writing with language that the individual can understand.

    Professional Expertise
    Individuals have the right to receive full information from the potential treating professional about that professional’s knowledge, skills, preparation, experience, and credentials. Individuals have the right to be informed about the options available for treatment interventions and the effectiveness of the recommended treatment.

    Contractual Limitations
    Individuals have the right to be informed by the treating professional of any arrangements, restrictions, and/or covenants established between third party payer and the treating professional that could interfere with or influence treatment recommendations. Individuals have the right to be informed of the nature of information that may be disclosed for the purposes of paying benefits.

    Appeals and Grievances
    Individuals have the right to receive information about the methods they can use to submit complaints or grievances regarding provision of care by the treating professional to that profession’s regulatory board and to the professional association. Individuals have the right to be provided information about the procedures they can use to appeal benefit utilization decisions to the third party payer systems, to the employer or purchasing entity, and to external regulatory entities.

    Confidentiality
    Individuals have the right to be guaranteed the protection of the confidentiality of their relationship with their mental health and substance abuse professional, except when laws or ethics dictate otherwise. Any disclosure to another party will be time limited and made with the full written, informed consent of the individuals. Individuals shall not be required to disclose confidential, privileged or other information other than: diagnosis, prognosis, type of treatment, time and length of treatment, and cost. Entities receiving information for the purposes of benefits determination, public agencies receiving information for health care planning, or any other organization with legitimate right to information will maintain clinical information in confidence with the same rigor and be subject to the same penalties for violation as is the direct provider of care.

    Information technology will be used for transmission, storage, or data management only with methodologies that remove individual identifying information and assure the protection of the individual’s privacy. Information should not be transferred, sold or otherwise utilized.

    Choice
    Individuals have the right to choose any duly licensed/certified professional for mental health and substance abuse services. Individuals have the right to receive full information regarding the education and training of professionals, treatment options (including risks and benefits), and cost implications to make an informed choice regarding the selection of care deemed appropriate by individual and professional.

    Determination of Treatment
    Recommendations regarding mental health and substance abuse treatment shall be made only by a duly licensed/certified professional in conjunction with the individual and his or her family as appropriate. Treatment decisions should not be made by third party payers. The individual has the right to make final decisions regarding treatment.

    Parity
    Individuals have the right to receive benefits for mental health and substance abuse treatment on the same basis as they do for any other illnesses, with the same provisions, co-payments, lifetime benefits, and catastrophic coverage in both insurance and self-funded/self-insured health plans.

    Discrimination
    Individuals who use mental health and substance abuse benefits shall not be penalized when seeking other health insurance or disability, life or any other insurance benefit.

    Benefit Usage
    The individual is entitled to the entire scope of the benefits within the benefit plan that will address his or her clinical needs.

    Benefit Design
    Whenever both federal and state law and/or regulations are applicable, the professional and all payers shall use whichever affords the individual the greatest level of protection and access.

    Treatment Review
    To assure that treatment review processes are fair and valid, individuals have the right to be guaranteed that any review of their mental health and substance abuse treatment shall involve a professional having the training, credentials and licensure required to provide the treatment in the jurisdiction in which it will be provided. The reviewer should have no financial interest in the decision and is subject to the section on confidentiality.

    Accountability
    Treating professionals may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence on the part of the professional. The treating professional has the obligation to advocate for and document necessity of care and to advise the individual of options if payment authorization is denied.

    Payers and other third parties may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence or by their clinically unjustified decisions.

    Participating Groups:
    American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
    American Counseling Association
    American Family Therapy Academy
    American Nurses Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychiatric Nurses Association
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Federation of Societies for Clinical Social Work

    Supporting Groups:
    Mental Health America
    National Depressive and Manic-Depressive Association
    American Group Psychotherapy Association
    American Psychoanalytic Association
    National Association of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Counselors
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    traight, St. Pete, early 80s
    AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

    The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

    Offline Whooter

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    Re: Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry
    « Reply #87 on: September 27, 2010, 04:15:53 PM »
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    Why shouldn't the TTI be held to this standard of care?


    http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/ ... ights.aspx


    Patient Bill of Rights

    Mental Health Bill Of Rights Project

    A Joint Initiative of Mental Health Professional Organizations:
    Principles for the Provision of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Treatment Services

    A Bill of Rights
    Our commitment is to provide quality mental health and substance abuse services to all individuals without regard to race, color, religion, national origin, gender, age, sexual orientation, or disabilities.

    Right to Know

    Benefits
    Individuals have the right to be provided information from the purchasing entity (such as employer or union or public purchaser) and the insurance/third party payer describing the nature and extent of their mental health and substance abuse treatment benefits. This information should include details on procedures to obtain access to services, on utilization management procedures, and on appeal rights. The information should be presented clearly in writing with language that the individual can understand.

    Professional Expertise
    Individuals have the right to receive full information from the potential treating professional about that professional’s knowledge, skills, preparation, experience, and credentials. Individuals have the right to be informed about the options available for treatment interventions and the effectiveness of the recommended treatment.

    Contractual Limitations
    Individuals have the right to be informed by the treating professional of any arrangements, restrictions, and/or covenants established between third party payer and the treating professional that could interfere with or influence treatment recommendations. Individuals have the right to be informed of the nature of information that may be disclosed for the purposes of paying benefits.

    Appeals and Grievances
    Individuals have the right to receive information about the methods they can use to submit complaints or grievances regarding provision of care by the treating professional to that profession’s regulatory board and to the professional association. Individuals have the right to be provided information about the procedures they can use to appeal benefit utilization decisions to the third party payer systems, to the employer or purchasing entity, and to external regulatory entities.

    Confidentiality
    Individuals have the right to be guaranteed the protection of the confidentiality of their relationship with their mental health and substance abuse professional, except when laws or ethics dictate otherwise. Any disclosure to another party will be time limited and made with the full written, informed consent of the individuals. Individuals shall not be required to disclose confidential, privileged or other information other than: diagnosis, prognosis, type of treatment, time and length of treatment, and cost. Entities receiving information for the purposes of benefits determination, public agencies receiving information for health care planning, or any other organization with legitimate right to information will maintain clinical information in confidence with the same rigor and be subject to the same penalties for violation as is the direct provider of care.

    Information technology will be used for transmission, storage, or data management only with methodologies that remove individual identifying information and assure the protection of the individual’s privacy. Information should not be transferred, sold or otherwise utilized.

    Choice
    Individuals have the right to choose any duly licensed/certified professional for mental health and substance abuse services. Individuals have the right to receive full information regarding the education and training of professionals, treatment options (including risks and benefits), and cost implications to make an informed choice regarding the selection of care deemed appropriate by individual and professional.

    Determination of Treatment
    Recommendations regarding mental health and substance abuse treatment shall be made only by a duly licensed/certified professional in conjunction with the individual and his or her family as appropriate. Treatment decisions should not be made by third party payers. The individual has the right to make final decisions regarding treatment.

    Parity
    Individuals have the right to receive benefits for mental health and substance abuse treatment on the same basis as they do for any other illnesses, with the same provisions, co-payments, lifetime benefits, and catastrophic coverage in both insurance and self-funded/self-insured health plans.

    Discrimination
    Individuals who use mental health and substance abuse benefits shall not be penalized when seeking other health insurance or disability, life or any other insurance benefit.

    Benefit Usage
    The individual is entitled to the entire scope of the benefits within the benefit plan that will address his or her clinical needs.

    Benefit Design
    Whenever both federal and state law and/or regulations are applicable, the professional and all payers shall use whichever affords the individual the greatest level of protection and access.

    Treatment Review
    To assure that treatment review processes are fair and valid, individuals have the right to be guaranteed that any review of their mental health and substance abuse treatment shall involve a professional having the training, credentials and licensure required to provide the treatment in the jurisdiction in which it will be provided. The reviewer should have no financial interest in the decision and is subject to the section on confidentiality.

    Accountability
    Treating professionals may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence on the part of the professional. The treating professional has the obligation to advocate for and document necessity of care and to advise the individual of options if payment authorization is denied.

    Payers and other third parties may be held accountable and liable to individuals for any injury caused by gross incompetence or negligence or by their clinically unjustified decisions.

    Participating Groups:
    American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
    American Counseling Association
    American Family Therapy Academy
    American Nurses Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychiatric Nurses Association
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Federation of Societies for Clinical Social Work

    Supporting Groups:
    Mental Health America
    National Depressive and Manic-Depressive Association
    American Group Psychotherapy Association
    American Psychoanalytic Association
    National Association of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Counselors

    I think they should be held to the same standards.  The people within the program should be held to standards which are suitable to their profession and training.  In the case where the person is a minor then the parents should be informed and participate in the decision making.



    ...
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »