Responsibility for Abuse in the Troubled Teen Industry

[DannyB II]

Uneffingbelievable, M. You know damn well no one could complain because staff just called you a liar and said that is why you were in the program. And mental and emotional abuse? Hard to prove. Plus, we were not who we are today - able to sift through all the BS as easily.  We were trying to survive. And for many of us, that meant buying in. But if you dared to complain, your ass was grass for the rest of your tenure. I kept my lips zipped and stayed under the radar. Anyone who didn't was quashed hard and fast.  

I mean come on how hard is to believe, M? The whole of No Ko is brainwashed.

You are a parent. I don't say that because of your pro program sympathies. I say it because everything feels off about how you describe your experiences. Everything.

You say "we were trying to survive". How many kids did the program you were in actually kill? It sounds really dangerous the way you describe it, you sound lucky to be alive. I'm assuming the mortality rate was at least 50% then?

I didn't zip my lips or stay under the radar, I always said what I thought even if it made people angry, hey, sort of like fornits. But I was never "quashed hard and fast", and I was never abused mentally or emotionally or whatever people here call it. Just because I'm not willing to play the pity me, I'm a victim card like most posters here doesn't mean I didn't go to a program. It means that not everyone who goes to a supposedly abusive program (as described here) sees it that way. But if it makes people here feel better to assume I'm a program mother, knock yourself out. Denying reality seems to be integral to the fornits ideology, so I'm not surprised one bit.

To *my* mind, and I may very well be reading material into this that is not there, Samara is not just talking about physical survival, but emotional and psychological survival as well. And, yeah, a lot of kids did not make it as far as the latter is concerned.

One thing programs are particularly good at crippling, despite glowing marketing propaganda to the contrary, is even sub-ordinary development of kids' capacities for mercy and empathy. I would venture that you seem to have been especially hard hit in this general area.

Hey Ursus, why don't you do us all a favor and let the poster another is conversioning with, respond. Then we do not have to worry whether you are correctly rebutting or not.
To say it another way, mind your business and let Samara respond.

[RobertBruce]

Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.



...

Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.

[RobertBruce]

Oh, I've decided I'm going to email your sister Catharine next. You've got about 22 hours left to either back up your claim, or acknowlege you made it up.

Look, Bruce, if you dont keep these threats and attacks in the "Open free for all" thread, psy is going to call  you out.

Its funny how everytime I catch Bruce exaggerating or lying (and call him on it) he starts sending out emails to people or trying to Blackmail me into backing up his lies.

"Okay whooter thats it.  I am going to email your mother unless you start agreeing with me!!"  lol



...

I thought your mother was dead John? If she's still alive I'll start seeking out her email info immediatly in order to add to the list, just in case you decide you can't back up your claims, but are still too afraid to admit you lied.

Meanwhile I'll again remind you to stay on topic, we're talking about institutionalized abuse in this industry you make your living off of. I'm not sure why you want to keep bringing up the fact that you lied about your claims regarding me, and are too afraid to admit to. Why would you want to highlight your own cowardice John? Why don't you send me another PM and we can talk about it over there. There's no reason for you to muck up the forums with your issues.

 
Now then back to the topic,  do you still believe there is a legitimate reason for keeping kids from having access to a hotline?

[Whooter]

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754

Thank you for finding this.  No where does it say that I think a hotline is a bad idea.  There is no guarantee that kids will remain safe anywhere.  The hotline trainers could have issues and hire the wrong people like programs can.

So, as I see it 2 things need to occur:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.



...

[Samara]

Well, Max I guess your humility act has worn off and you are back to being your sanctimonious self insisting there is no program abuse and anyone who disagrees is a self pitying fool.

Look, I don't give a shit about what happened to me 20 years ago - it's over and done. (Other than the nightmares and residual affects.) I do give a shit that it still happens.

My problem with programs is that once you are in, you have no credibility. If you have no credibility, you have no access to authentic advocacy, and you sure as hell can't take genuine accountability for your life's direction.  Programs have too much power to manipulate not only your parents, but your own damn sense of self.  

If you want to believe in your Program Jesus, that's fine.  But you sure as hell don't have any right to tell anyone else that our naked scaly assed Emperor does in fact wear clothes.

And if you really were a program kid -and I am 100% certain you are not, Sweet Canadian - I understand why you think you needed Program Jesus.  Afterall, you basically described yourself as a liar, thief, master manipulator, and bullshit artist. But I can tell you that the vast majority of kids I knew were neither addicts nor Satan incarnate and did not need to be warehoused in some Stepford kid factory.

[Samara]

A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.

[Ursus]

Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.

Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.

Yup. I remember Whooter posting that.

Moreover, Whooter has, once again, misquoted me. He really does hate getting called out on bogus claims. Getting requests for links seems to really get under his skin. If past posting behavior will prove indicative to the present, I expect he will now misquote me, in short order, dozens of times.  

My post in that nest quoted above was originally posted in response to Whooter himself, requesting a link to his claim that Anne had "admitted ... here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that [she] had embellished many of the events that [she] claims occurred inside the program."

It would appear that Whooter's claims re. Anne are a complete and utter fabrication, btw, as no one seems to have heard of such a thing.

Are these the kind of games that Whooter likes to play? Putting words in other posters' mouths and deliberate misquoting, all to cast aspersion and deflect focus?

[Ursus]

A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.

The whole school would be rallied up against that kid, were that kid at Hyde. The condemnation would be palpable; you could cut it with a knife.

[Whooter]

Whooter thinks having an abuse hotline in programs is a bad idea because the hotline operator might talk dirty to the kids.

Link, please?

I dont believe she has a link, Ursus.  I remember the conversation well and she just made this up.  I dont know why she says things like this.

Yet another one of John Reuben's lies to add to the list:

Report this postReply with quoteAcademy at Swift River - Split from TTI
by TheWho » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Now, let's examine this, Who: Let's say, for argument's sake that a kid's very own counselor sexually abuses him/her. ASR's plan, as you verified with them like I did, is to have that child report the abuse directly to the person that perpetrated it.

This is downright scary and paves the road for child abuse. I would avoid this facility at all costs. It's dangerous!

Sure, DJ, of course it is possible. The guy on the abuse hot line could talk dirty to the kids also, but it is highly unlikely. The hot line never helped the kids who were raped by their teacher at public school, so, the way I see it, you need to do 2 things to convince us one is needed:

1. Determine if the law requires a “Hot Line” to be installed in the school.

2. How effective is this hot line in keeping kids safe.

http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21256&p=255763&hilit=+hotline#p255754



There we have Whooter John Reuben once again attempting to lie about his own past. Such a coward he's afraid to stand behind his own comments. What a sad little life you must lead John.

Yup. I remember Whooter posting that.

Moreover, Whooter has, once again, misquoted me. He really does hate getting called out on bogus claims. Getting requests for links seems to really get under his skin. If past posting behavior will prove indicative to the present, I expect he will now misquote me, in short order, dozens of times.  

My post in that nest quoted above was originally posted in response to Whooter himself, requesting a link to his claim that Anne had "admitted ... here on fornits, many times, that programs are helpful in most cases and that [she] had embellished many of the events that [she] claims occurred inside the program."

It would appear that Whooter's claims re. Anne are a complete and utter fabrication, btw, as no one seems to have heard of such a thing.

Are these the kind of games that Whooter likes to play? Putting words in other posters' mouths and deliberate misquoting, all to cast aspersion and deflect focus?

So now that you can see my words have been taken out of context by Anne Bonney I think it would have been the right call to ask her for the link.  

See, Ursus, it is the right thing to do to treat everyone equally and not instill the double standard.  If we let Anne just post anything she wants about people and make up quotes, then everyone would do it and the forum would lose all credibility.

My point (and a lesson to you):  If you ask people for links you should ask equally or stay out of the argument.



...

[Maximilian]

Well, Max I guess your humility act has worn off and you are back to being your sanctimonious self insisting their is no program abuse and anyone who disagrees is a self pitying fool.

Look, I don't give a shit about what happened to me 20 years ago - it's over and done. (Other than the nightmares and residual affects.) I do give a shit that it still happens.

My problem with programs is that once you are in, you have no credibility. If you have no credibility, you have no access to authentic advocacy, and you sure as hell can't take genuine accountability for your life's direction.  Programs have too much power to manipulate not only your parents, but your own damn sense of self.  

If you want to believe in your Program Jesus, that's fine.  But you sure as hell don't have any right to tell anyone else that our naked scaly assed Emperor does in fact wear clothes.

And if you really were a program kid -and I am 100% certain you are not, Sweet Canadian - I understand why you think you needed Program Jesus.  Afterall, you basically described yourself as a liar, thief, master manipulator, and bullshit artist. But I can tell you that the vast majority of kids I knew were neither addicts nor Satan incarnate and did not need to be warehoused in some Stepford kid factory.

Yeah, yeah. I've heard this all before. I'm a program parent in disguise. I never went to a program. I was brainwashed by the Program Jesus. I've heard many conspiracy theories attempting to dismiss the fact that not everybody who goes to programs feels the way the extremists here on fornits do. Believe whatever you want, I really could care less. There's about 10 people who post here regularly, sorry, but this slim sample does not accurately represent the diverse views on this industry from the people who went through it.

[Maximilian]

A hotline won't do Jack shit. The program will still lie about the kid.  Plus, an unattended hotline would be flooded with calls ranging from pranks to the serious. And emotional/mental/and psychological abuse does not have obvious scars. A kid would not be pulled out pending that type of he said-they said investigation. In the mean time, life would be hell for that kid.

The whole school would be rallied up against that kid, were that kid at Hyde. The condemnation would be palpable; you could cut it with a knife.

Then they would be sacrificed at the stake, and the other kids fed the blood of this infidel right? Ever been to high school? Like normal high school, or did you spend all those years in programs for special kids or something? Because tension between individuals and groups is nothing new, and it's certainly not abuse.

[Samara]

The people I know who have been at different programs are not isolated to 10 people on Fornits. They're not even isolated to people who went to programs decade ago. And, no sane reputable person would advocate abusive programs. They also wouldn't talk about survivors or victims the way you do, sicko.  

But at least your true nature is back out of the bag.  You must consider your self an extremist too, then, right? Hanging out here on Fornits the way you do.

[Maximilian]

The people I know who have been at different programs are not isolated to 10 people on Fornits. They're not even isolated to people who went to programs decade ago. And, no sane reputable person would advocate abusive programs. They also wouldn't talk about survivors or victims the way you do, sicko.  

But at least your true nature is back out of the bag.  You must consider your self an extremist too, then, right? Hanging out here on Fornits the way you do.

Sicko? Well now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I am a victim, and a survivor too. Why would you speak to me in such a way? Oh that's right, you are only considered part of the club here if you spout the same mythology and extremist one sided argument that all programs are abusive. It's sad that someone telling their own experience, contrary to the group think, is so objectionable to the cult like group of insular close minded people that post here.

[RobertBruce]

Sicko? Well now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I am a victim, and a survivor too. Why would you speak to me in such a way? Oh that's right, you are only considered part of the club here if you spout the same mythology and extremist one sided argument that all programs are abusive. It's sad that someone telling their own experience, contrary to the group think, is so objectionable to the cult like group of insular close minded people that post here.

A victim and survivor of what?

[Samara]

Maxi, as I've stated, its not your program perspective that bothers me, it's your cruelty and inability to allow other people their experiences.

I can see you are taking script flipping lessons from your idol.