Well, there are a lot of folks who would disagree with you Anne, they would say from listening to your story that you absolutely are responsible for ending up at Straight and if you had not acted out while there you would never had been treated so harshly.
Your decisions laid out your path.
I am not saying I am one of those folks but just showing you the other side as you do with AA.
Well, those 'folks' would be either just dead wrong and mistaken, or more likely - program parents as this illustrates exactly what we're talking about. I drank and smoked pot and not even that much. I've said before that I was the 'lightweight' of the group I was hanging around with and they weren't 'heavy' into drugs either. My school didn't have a problem with my behavior, nor did my mother - which is why she gave me more freedom after my parents divorced. My father didn't like the fact that he couldn't control every single aspect of my life anymore, so he found a way to do it.
George Vaillant, sat on the Board of Directors, he had his opinions but if you really had read up, you would know that he never stopped encouraging folks to come to AA. George wanted AA to become better. He never went against AA.
I never said he "went against" it. What I said was that the study he did proved that AA not only didn't "work", but it actually made binge drinking worse and raised the death rates of alcoholics.
AA will continue to put emphasis on anecdotal testimonies, they are of great value to us. Sorry you want more but as usual live doesn't always give us more.
I don't want more, I want them to tell the truth.
There is no proof, Anne your communicating with two folks associated with AA, right now. There is some proof.
Why is my association and experience with AA any less valid than yours?
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.htmlOne mans opinion. Good for him.
And that's what your view of it is....an opinion.
Jeesh, this is why millions are so happy AA does not get caught up in these exaggerated studies done by folks who have absolutely "nada" when it comes to experience.
Yeah, why get caught up in things like "studies" and "facts" when you've got Danny! Dern book lernin!!!!!
AA is not a corporation it is a bunch of independent groups that are anonymous. Anne, beating on AA is not going to change what you went through in Straight.
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I'm not beating on AA Danny. I have a different view of it than you do.
There will never be any studies because they respect the rights of the individuals in AA nor would we want to get caught up in such politics.
This may be hard for the average bear to understand but folks in AA could care less what you think.
You obviously do or you wouldn't have such a problem with me posting my views on it.
Experimental evidence, AA doctrine of powerlessness, WOW!!!!! It would be nice if you could correctly articulate what that word means (powerlessness) for people in AA.
Ummmm, what?
Now I know you have mentioned you were at one time associated with AA, though I have always had a hard time accepting this.
I'm sure you do Danny. I'm sure you do.
Powerlessness is explained as a existence of no power. Yes, there was a time in my life I felt I had no power to make any changes to stop my self destructiveness. My god, family, friends, good counseling and AA help to bring back the power within myself to make good decisions. This is what "powerlessness" has meant to me.
Good for you.
Yep, you are right Max, she really doesn't have a clue. Anne you are intelligent there is no doubt about that but for some reason you have this ability to just look the other way and simplify addictions and alcoholism.
Like I said, personal responsibility is a bitch.
Hey, if folks can sober up without AA's help that is great, we do not have the "corner market on helping Alcoholics".
What about that "signing their own death warrant" if they don't "follow the 12 steps"?
12&12 p.174, Tradition NineHere is a thought for ya, show me where AA has ever criticized another organization that was helping folks to get sober. Never!!!!
I never said they did, but I've seen it personally in quite a few meetings. I've been told that by at least 2 sponsors. And then there's the person a few weeks ago who's sponsor told them to quit taking their anti-depressant meds, cold turkey.
This was a internal survey done almost 20 years ago, AA was doing this often until politics interfered and folks like yourselves here started to take private answers from folks and twist them.
There's no twisting Danny. It just makes you feel better to believe that. And that's ok.
So out of one survey twenty years ago, you base your opinions on. Anne, please come on.
Well, that's the only one they've allowed but no - that's not all I base my opinion of it on. I base it on about 10 years of my own research and my own experiences with AA.
Anne, there is no studying or definition. It is one person helping another, one day at a time. Keep it simple. AA is not Straight.
No, it's not Straight but there are a lot of similarities.
Ok, so what, it this supposed to be bad, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob encouraged this. AA does not take the place of counseling, psychiatric care, detox, residential care, ect....
Ya might want to tell that to sponsors because a lot of them sure try to.
Well that would be great if AA was a treatment center but it is not, so why would we do this comparison.
The steps are used in virtually every treatment center available and AA is recommended as aftercare.
This is not Straight.
Yes, I know.
OK, it has worked great for me, Max and millions of others. I suppose it can not work for everybody
Then I wish they'd stop telling people that they'll die if they leave the rooms. I wish they'd stop telling people to stop their meds because AA is all they need. That is a direct quote from the sponsor of the person I was helping a few weeks ago. This person actually told their sponsee that AA was all they need and to stop taking the meds immediately.
AA does not have failures, why would you say such a thing.
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Well I believe the same was said about Straight.
Huh?
AA is self help it can not be forced. Once again George Vaillant, sat on the AA BODs and still encouraged folks to attend AA meetings.
Yes, despite his findings. Funny, huh?
The discrepancy between his data and his case studies is not very reassuring about Dr. Vaillant's mission.............In a separate non-clinical sample he studied, Vaillant found that the substantial majority achieved remission without entering AA. Yet Vaillant failed to cite a single case of natural recovery in his book! Every single case is of an AA success, or else of failures like "Tom Reardon," who foolishly "never learned to pick up the telephone" to call AA. The discrepancy between his data and his case studies is not very reassuring about Dr. Vaillant's mission.