Poll

What drugs would you legalize?

Marijuana
14 (22.2%)
Ecstasy
6 (9.5%)
Magic Mushrooms
12 (19%)
LSD
10 (15.9%)
Cocaine/crack
5 (7.9%)
Methamphetamine
5 (7.9%)
Heroin
5 (7.9%)
Oxycontin
5 (7.9%)
NONE THEY SHOULD REMAIN ILLEGAL
1 (1.6%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: September 14, 2010, 01:46:56 PM

Author Topic: What illegal drugs would you legalize?  (Read 14828 times)

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Offline psy

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2010, 11:05:34 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
If your use of drugs or alcohol is effecting your life more negatively than positively, stop using them.

Well hell, all those rehab facilities should shutter their doors. Looks like Anne has found the solution to addiction. That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.

Maybe not, but providing that person with a dietary / exercise plan can help.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"

That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.

Personal responsibility is a bitch, I know.

This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.
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Offline none-ya

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2010, 11:09:38 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"

That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.

Personal responsibility is a bitch, I know.

This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.


Spoken like a true fatty
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2010, 11:16:38 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"

That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.

Personal responsibility is a bitch, I know.

This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help.


I don't know about Psy, but I've had people come to me for help with drug/alcohol issues.  They're doing just fine.  I try to get my mom to stop eating so much.  She doesn't want to.

Quote
You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.

Where?  AA?  Treatment centers that use the 12 step model?  Just because something has become popular/pop-culture doesn't mean it "works".
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Offline psy

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2010, 11:17:11 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.

Just because I don't believe alcoholism or addiction is a disease doesn't mean I wouldn't help somebody i cared about to deal with the temptation from their bad habits in any available way.  That being said, i'm not going to coddle them and lie and say that it's the alcohol's fault, or the drug's fault. I'm certainly not going to make the leap to saying that all drugs should be banned just because some people choose to use them irresponsibly.  Some people drive irresponsibly.  We don't ban cars or say that the cars drove the people irresponsibly.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2010, 11:22:28 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.

Just because I don't believe alcoholism or addiction is a disease doesn't mean I wouldn't help somebody i cared about to deal with the temptation from their bad habits in any available way.  That being said, i'm not going to coddle them and lie and say that it's the alcohol's fault, or the drug's fault. I'm certainly not going to make the leap to saying that all drugs should be banned just because some people choose to use them irresponsibly.  Some people drive irresponsibly.  We don't ban cars or say that the cars drove the people irresponsibly.

So what would you do? Sit them across from you at a table, and coldly explain they are choosing to destroy their own lives? You really think that is going to help someone with addiction? I'm not saying you aren't willing to help, I'm saying your advice is so corrosive that it would instantly cause the addict to turn around and walk out of the room. Addicts get told this all the time, 'why don't you just quit', it's not helpful, it's actually somewhat insulting and after hearing it a hundred times it can get old, quick.

I don't think drug prohibition effects addiction one way or the other. People who want to use will find it whether it's legal or not. End prohibition and you still have to deal with the health issue that is addiction. Just telling people to stop, isn't going to work. So what then?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Maximilian

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2010, 11:29:04 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"

That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.

Personal responsibility is a bitch, I know.

This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help.


I don't know about Psy, but I've had people come to me for help with drug/alcohol issues.  They're doing just fine.  I try to get my mom to stop eating so much.  She doesn't want to.

Quote
You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.

Where?  AA?  Treatment centers that use the 12 step model?  Just because something has become popular/pop-culture doesn't mean it "works".

I find it somewhat ironic that suddenly personal responsibility is so important when talking about addiction. But when talking about why we ended up in programs, it's suddenly somebody else's fault. Suddenly we are on an uncontrollable destiny, not of our own choosing. AA works for a lot of people, I have a hard time understanding why people are so offended by this truth, on fornits. The program ideology i was exposed to, is exactly what you are saying, that life is a series of choices. AA is actually contrary to the "programing" i received.
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Offline none-ya

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2010, 11:30:35 AM »
Quote
Anne Bonney wrote;
" I try to get my mom to stop eating so much. "

Maybe she could speak to max pain. I understand he has a weight problem also
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2010, 11:30:52 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Addicts get told this all the time, 'why don't you just quit', it's not helpful, it's actually somewhat insulting and after hearing it a hundred times it can get old, quick.

Because it's human nature to look for the easier way or they way to lay the responsibility on someone or something other than ourselves.  It really does boil down to a decision one way or the other.  You either decide to quit, or you don't.  That applies whether or not someone joins AA or not, correct?  You can't make someone quit, they have to decide.....right?

Quote
I don't think drug prohibition effects addiction one way or the other. People who want to use will find it whether it's legal or not. End prohibition and you still have to deal with the health issue that is addiction. Just telling people to stop, isn't going to work. So what then?

Telling, showing, threatening, scaring people isn't going to do anything until they make a decision that they don't like how they're living and they'd like to change it.  Now, again......if someone has a physical addiction, they need medical detox, but beyond that it's up to them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

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Offline Ursus

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2010, 11:33:37 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"
That's like telling a fat person to just stop eating, not very helpful really.
Personal responsibility is a bitch, I know.
This is why nobody will ever come to you for help losing weight. Or why an alcoholic or addict would never go to Psy for help. You are free to your opinions, but take a look around at where people go to get help and you might learn something.
What might I learn? Something 'bout the powerful medium of marketing and advertising? How to "win friends and influence people?" The keys to group management and organizational psychology?
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2010, 11:37:48 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Because it's human nature to look for the easier way or they way to lay the responsibility on someone or something other than ourselves.  It really does boil down to a decision one way or the other.  You either decide to quit, or you don't.  That applies whether or not someone joins AA or not, correct?  You can't make someone quit, they have to decide.....right?

As much flak as I receive for sounding like I'm "programmed", this sounds just like what we were told in the program, actually. I was constantly told that drug addiction is a choice, and it all boiled down to me choosing what type of person I wanted to be when I got out. Well, it turns out that, unfortunately, it's not that simple. The percentage of people who quit addictive substances (including cigarettes) cold turkey on their own, is very small.

Quote
Telling, showing, threatening, scaring people isn't going to do anything until they make a decision that they don't like how they're living and they'd like to change it.  Now, again......if someone has a physical addiction, they need medical detox, but beyond that it's up to them.

I think addiction is a mental disease like depression or anxiety. Do we tell people who are depressed to buck up, and choose to be happy? Well, a few decades ago this is what people did. I don't see a good reason to take addiction back to the dark ages, when it's clear that options like AA have a positive impact on many people's lives. It's easier to quit with help, and sometimes people have to be convinced to stop before they kill themselves. If you haven't seen the show Intervention on A&E I suggest you watch it, and then come and tell me people choose to be that way.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2010, 11:45:36 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
I find it somewhat ironic that suddenly personal responsibility is so important when talking about addiction. But when talking about why we ended up in programs, it's suddenly somebody else's fault.

If you can't see the difference between an adult being responsible for their own actions and a child being forced into a "rehab", I can't help you.

Quote
Suddenly we are on an uncontrollable destiny, not of our own choosing.


That's right.  I didn't choose to go to Straight and I certainly didn't choose to be abused there.  However, how I choose to deal with it now is up to me.

Quote
AA works for a lot of people, I have a hard time understanding why people are so offended by this truth, on fornits.


Because there's no proof, other than anecdotal, that "it" does work and AA's own Dr. George Vaillant's study concluded that it was actually harmful to the alcoholic because it taught them that if they 'relapsed' (even having one drink) or rejected AA's teaching, then they were "certainly signing their own death warrant" (see 12 & 12).  The poor souls believed it and went binge drinking.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

n spite of the scarcity of good, properly run randomized longitudinal controlled studies of the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous, there are still several good tests and studies which were done properly, and give us a good idea of what is happening.

There is experimental evidence that the A.A. doctrine of powerlessness leads to binge drinking. In a sophisticated controlled study of A.A.'s effectiveness (Brandsma et. al.), court-mandated offenders who had been sent to Alcoholics Anonymous for several months were engaging in FIVE TIMES as much binge drinking as another group of alcoholics who got no treatment at all, and the A.A. group was doing NINE TIMES as much binge drinking as another group of alcoholics who got rational behavior therapy.

Those results are almost unbelievable, but are easy to understand — when you are drunk, it's easy to rationalize drinking some more by saying,

    "Oh well, A.A. says that I'm powerless over alcohol. I can't control it, so there is no sense in trying. I'm doomed, because I already took a drink. One drink, one drunk. I'm screwed, because I already lost all of my sober time. Might as well just relax and enjoy it now. Pass that bottle over here, buddy."

It's also easy to rationalize taking the first drink with,

    "I'm powerless. I can't help it. The Big Book says that I have no defense against those strange mental blank spots when I'll drink again. Bottoms up!"

Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma and his associates Dr. Maxie Maultsby (co-inventor of Rational Behavior Therapy) and Dr. Richard J. Welsh did a study where they took some alcoholics who had been arrested for public drunkenness, and randomly divided them into three groups, which got one of:

   1. A.A. treatment
   2. Lay RBT (non-professional Rational Behavior Therapy, something invented by Dr. Maxie Maultsby and Dr. Albert Ellis, something very similar to SMART)
   3. No treatment at all. This was the control group.

And the results were:

    The variables that showed significant differences at outcome could be organized into three categories: treatment holding power, legal difficulties, and drinking behavior. Treatment holding power was indicated by the percentage of dropouts between intake and outcome (p = 0.05), the mean number of treatment sessions attended (p = 0.05), and the mean number of days in treatment. Less than one-third (31.6%) of the clients assigned to the AA group qualified for outcome measures in contrast to almost 60% for the lay-RBT group, and this occurred with equivalent attempts by our social work staff to keep the men in treatment, whatever type it was. Table 32 highlights these differences. See table at link above.



http://cbtrecovery.org/AAefficacyrates.htm

Some information about AA's success rate comes from its own membership surveys. In particular, the rather famous 'Comments on AA's Triennial Surveys' document cited by Charles Bufe in Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure is AA's ID # 5M/12-90/TC, which was produced for internal purposes. It is also summarized in Vince Fox's Addiction, Change, and Choice (1993). The document is not listed in AA's 'Conference Approved Literature' but Fox was able to obtain a copy from AA.

AA's own analysis was that 50% of all those who try AA leave within 90 days, which they describe as cause for 'concern'. Their own data shows that is actually optimistic. In the 12-year period shown, 19% remain after 30 days, 10% remain after 90 days, and 5% remain after a year.

The retention rate of AA is 5% after one year.

So do we define the success rate as the retention rate? You'd have to tell me if you believe that success in AA is measured by whether people are still attending meetings.

Other observations:

60% of those surveyed were getting outside professional help. This means that any success (or failure) rate, however it is defined, can't be attributed entirely to AA.

One way to measure the success of AA would be by comparing 12-step based treatment with other treatments. A 1997 study found that 93% of American drug and alcohol treatment programs follow the 12-step model. So it would be pretty easy to tell, at least, whether 12-step programs work.

An extensive study (Hester and Miller, Handbook of alcoholism treatment approaches) shows that peer-based 12-step alcohol treatment programs do NOT have a higher success rate than no treatment at all. Facilitated 12-step treatment (trained facilitators guiding subjects through the twelve-step process) were marginally better. "The two tests of AA found it inferior to other treatments or even no treatment but were not sufficient to rank AA reliably."

Brief, non-confrontational interventions and motivational interviewing were found most effective.

If you define success as reduced drinking, absence of alcohol dependence, or a reduction in problem drinking, then you see different results. Success in AA is presumed to be total abstinence. But followup to many treatment programs finds people have done some drinking, or drink moderately (defined by the researcher, not the patient!). They would be considered failures in AA--but the behavior has changed. So if one wants to improve the statistical success rates of 12-step treatment, just broaden the definition of 'success' to include moderate drinking!




http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/add ... le-disease

George Vaillant is a world renown alcoholism expert who identified this truth, then became a spokesperson for Alcoholics Anonymous and the disease theory. When he determined that his 12-step treatment program did no good, Vaillant intoned, "the best that can be said for our exciting treatment effort at Cambridge Hospital is that we were certainly not interfering with the normal recovery process." Chew on that!  But, even this ridiculously modest claim is wrong.......

............In a separate non-clinical sample he studied, Vaillant found that the substantial majority achieved remission without entering AA. Yet Vaillant failed to cite a single case of natural recovery in his book! Every single case is of an AA success, or else of failures like "Tom Reardon," who foolishly "never learned to pick up the telephone" to call AA. The discrepancy between his data and his case studies is not very reassuring about Dr. Vaillant's mission.
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Offline psy

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2010, 11:50:42 AM »
Quote
I don't think drug prohibition effects addiction one way or the other.

No, but the public perception of drug addiction does affect drug prohibition (which is why this isn't off-topic).  The disease debate ends up boiling down to: do drugs actually cause people to commit crimes.  If you believe people have free will, the answer is no.  Drugs might be a motivation but sufficient motivation is not an excuse to commit a crime.  If I really really want to kill somebody, I can't just get off because I claim I really really wanted their money to buy smack.  Drug users who commit crimes, even under the influence, know that what they are doing is wrong and choose to commit them anyway.  Knowledge of wrongdoing is the key component in the insanity defense, not motive.  The alternative is to let people who commit crimes off because of temporary mental defect and sentence them to "treatment" (which at that point becomes forced re-education by the state).  Essentially it gives everybody under the influence a pass...  a get out of jail free card.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2010, 12:03:11 PM »
Stealing is just a symptom of drug addiction, caused in part by the high price of drugs due to prohibition. So let's say they are made legal and the price plummets, is that going to affect the number of people who get addicted to drugs? If you can buy an eight ball for $5, isn't it more likely that more people will use, and use to a degree that causes them addiction and health problems? It comes down to what society would rather deal with, criminals stealing to support a drug habit of an expensive drug. Or less crime related to stealing for drugs, and more DUI, and the other problems associated with legal use of substances. We see the effects of alcohol, the car crashes, the family devastation due to alcoholism. Might legal drugs lead to similar issues? That is definitely a possibility. But as long as people are no longer breaking into homes or stealing car stereos, is that a worthy trade off?

People are held responsible for their crimes, their motive is irrelevant. The fact people will risk their freedom and commit crimes just to buy more drugs, I think, shows just how powerful a grip that addiction can be. Nothing rational about it, so to ask addicts to make rational choices is a non starter. This view is why so often people get so frustrated dealing with friends, or family members who are alcoholics/addicts. It's not as simple as choosing to be a good person, or a bad person. I don't know anyone who would choose to be an alcoholic or addict, it doesn't make any sense. There's something more to it, something that we currently do not understand fully. We don't recommend exorcisms for people hearing voices any longer, because eventually science caught up and figured out what was actually happening. The same will happen with addiction, eventually, but right now people do their best with what's available.
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Offline psy

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Re: What illegal drugs would you legalize?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2010, 12:07:04 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
It's easier to quit with help, and sometimes people have to be convinced to stop before they kill themselves.

Of course. I agree.  You can't convince a disease to stop but you can convince people that their lives are worth living and that they can change if they want.  I even agree that support groups are a good thing.  It may be possible to quit on your own, but why take a more difficult route.  There are plenty of support groups out there (SMART, SOS), that can help people to learn self discipline and deal with their destructive desires and harmful self medication.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)