The Parents Side of the Story

[DannyB II]

Can you describe exactly what that term "accountability" means as it was taught.  Are you accountable for everything that happened to in your life, including things that were done to you?

That's their definition, but I'm talking about more of a personal realization than what they taught at seminars. It was my fault I ended up in the program, and I don't mean this in the sense that they teach in seminars. Yes they teach a rigid form of accountability and choices, something I don't fully agree with. I think they teach it because it gives you a sense of control and a new way of making choices, and I find similar ideology in a lot of other things. We weren't taught AA, or 12 steps or anything like that in the program. They never mentioned it once, and addiction was for the most part considered a choice. AA philosophy and program ideology are actually quite different, if not contradictory.

I completely agree.  They're polar opposites.  The mistake is to think they are the only two philosophies.  AA teaches you are powerless.  The seminars teach you are at cause for everything and can thus control everything.  The middle-ground, what I believe, is that you choose and are responsible for 100% of your actions (including bad habits), but you are not responsible for what other people do to you, even if you accidentally put yourself in that situation (abuse, rape, etc).

I tend to side with AA type argument more, based on what I've seen and my own experiences with addiction. I don't believe people choose to destroy their lives, at a certain point what once might have been a choice becomes an unhealthy addiction, which I think is a form of mental disorder like depression.

I sort of agree with you there...  sort of. I see addiction as a symptom of mental illness, not a mental illness in itself.  People use hard drugs to cope with problems. It alleviates the symptoms but makes the root causes (diseases, shitty experiences, etc) worse.  It creates a vicious circle.  Still.  People choose to quit drugs all the time. You can't quit a disease.  Because you can choose to quit, the choice to continue must also be a choice.  It's probably difficult to look back on things and face the truth that you chose drugs over family and friends, but that's the reality of what happened.  Low self worth, depression, overbearing parents, the trauma from program's abuse.  All these things can contribute and can constitute diseases in some cases but putting substances in your body to alleviate the symptoms is merely a symptom in itself. AA, on the other hand, teaches that addition is a primary disease.

No AA, if you look inside the Big Book does not teach the disease concept nor does it go on to teach about the allergy concept, Psy. This is TC teaching that have been going on for darn near 45 years that it trickled into AA meeting from folks coming out of these TC's.
This has been my whole point from the get go, most of what you have against AA/NA I'm sure Max, any responsible AA member and myself don't have a problem with. AA in my opinion has changed into a surrogate parent for the TC's and it enables bad thought reform and behavior. Which it was not intended to do, AA is not perfect by any means not one self help program is but it was not intended for members to sit around and blame a disease for their problems.

Using drugs to the degree some people do, is as logical as jumping off a bridge when life gets tough. It's not a rational choice people make, something is wrong with them.

People make irrational choices all the time based on their desires.  It's easy to choose temporary relief over hard work and pain required to get back on track.  Still a choice.

Not a choice in the conventional sense, Psy. Yes people do have desires which test decisions but drugs have a impact on our system that we did not or could not see coming and before you know it your in over your head.

But when I say I personally learned accountability, it's not because of what was taught to me. It was shown to me, that if I acted in a certain way, I would be held accountable.

In that context accountable means "punishment", and punishments are only as just as those in power.  "Responsibility", on the other hand, is acknowledging your mistakes and learning from them.  Very different things.

I think you learn responsibility by being punished for clear decisions that were made in a state of revolt. Punishment is not a bad thing as you said. Learning accountability I'm sorry Psy , comes mainly from being punished either from yourself or others.

There was no way to talk your way out of a punishment, or manipulate your way out of the program this time. I learned that my actions and choices led me to being there, even though I found this point difficult at first, I came to realize over time this was true.

Sure. Maybe your choices did lead you there. It's not true of all kids but it might have been for you.  It still does not make the punishments just.  Remember the Hobbit?

It seems almost as if you're arguing the program was as effective as jail would have been as rehabilitation.

Well that might deserve it's own thread, but I think the program was better than jail would have been. We had our own little community, with school, and responsibilities like cleaning and writing about ourselves. For a few months I saw a therapist once per week. We were not fenced in, and we were surrounded by nature. Yes if you ran they would chase you, but we weren't locked up in cells or chained with shackles. There are many reasons I think the program is better than jail, it would take a while for me to explain them all.

I think you're right.  It does deserve it'w own thread.

It sounds to me as if the program didn't work at all.  You were determined to go down "that path" and while they might have restrained you for a while, it doesn't sound like they instilled any desire to change.  Max.  Do you really think a person can be forced to quit substances?  Do you really think that works in the long run?  Seems to me that like most things, once the threat of force is removed there is no incentive to continue.  Seems to me the program didn't save your life as much as it merely postponed what you chose and were determined to make inevitable.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that AA did help him, Psy your understanding of AA is not mainstream, you are way left.

I was forced to stop using drugs the time I was locked up, whether in a hospital, RTC, or private program. I don't know if it works in the long run, it probably does for some people. I ended up going back to using after I got out, but it was never to the extreme every day usage and physical addiction I had before. A big reason why is because people knew about it, it wasn't secret anymore so it wasn't as easy to hide.

Since when does social pressure affect a disease? There is a reason Jewish families have a very lot incedence of alcoholism and addiction: it's simply very very shameful.

Well I am out of this paragraph because I don't believe in the disease theory, it does not effect social situations but you dealing with your addiction does.

The program worked like an ER, they took me in at my worst and kept me from using as long as they could. They didn't cure me, but they did temporarily keep me from harming myself. That's all my family ever wanted, or so I'm told. So they got what they payed for.

So what you're basically saying is the same thing could be accomplished for a lot cheaper by simply locking your kids in the basement for a few years?

Well they'd probably end up messed up if you did that. In the program we weren't locked in cement cells with iron bars, and shuffled around in shackels by prison guards. I would describe more like a very strict boarding school. So we had activities, and times when we would laugh. We would get candy every week, and every kid got a cake on their birthday. It wasn't all bad all the time. Some times were stressful, but it was about a million times better than jail would be, or being locked in a basement. We had other kids to socialize with, and made friends.

Max.  If you're going to be honest, why not be completely honest: were you ever locked in an isolation room?

Were there kids that really didn't belong there?  Do you consider the program ethical for keeping them?

[Maximilian]

Like I said, I would describe it as a strict boarding school with group therapy sessions every few months, but more than therapy I'd describe it as a motivational seminar actually.

Right.  But that motivational seminar is a carbon copy of LifeSpring.  It's cultic indoctrination, not therapy.  The processes they use are designed to manipulate people's emotions, opinions, and thoughts without their informed consent.  I'm not at all against throwing kids in a lockup if they've committed a crime.  What i'm against is performing permanent change on their minds without their informed consent.  It would be bad enough if it worked long term but the fact is it rarely does, and when it does the only lasting change is trauma.  Because it lasts into adulthood it's basically an adult decision.  You wouldn't perform cosmetic surgery on a child.  This shouldn't be permissible either.  You said yourself that you were not going to change.  It took the desire, right?  and you had to find that on your own.

Well I don't think it's permanent. I don't think there are many 20 something seminar participants walking around talking about their 'I am' statements and regurgitating phrases like there is no right and wrong, or there are no accidents. In my opinion and experience, the seminars provided a short term euphoric effect that quickly wore off, I didn't sense the people around me fundamentally changing into program robots like some people here describe. I think eventually people learned if you followed the rules, and did what you're told, then you'd get to go home quicker. It wasn't really that complicated. The seminar circus rolled through town every couple months, so most of the program was about the day to day stuff. I thought the seminars were ridiculous at times, but I will admit they were somewhat exhilarating at the same time. But I never really believed in their ideology fully, or even understood it really. In the seminars I felt like the dumb kid in class that just didn't get it, and was pretending to fit in and worried about being exposed as the fake that I was during it.

I had the desire to quit drugs for a long time before I was finally able to. It was a complicated situation, and wasn't as simple as making a choice to just stop, at least for me.

[Whooter]

If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment.   Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.

Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.

These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t  working or wasn’t present for them.  Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence.  Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.

I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives.  I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on.  The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure.  But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.



...

[Samara]

All I can say is that parents were only allowed to visit once every few months at my program and some others I know. The staff prepped it well.  Parents were never part of the 4 hour thrice weekly raps, which were abusive. There were no individual one on one therapy.   Parents did go through a profeet lite - for us it was a 24 hour to one week encounter group of intense psychodrama; for them, it was a couple hours of "I have a dream" bullshit.

So, if you are telling me, Max, that your program was COMPLETELY transparent to parents, you were in luck. But did you have 1 on 1 therapy where no one coerced you into a "truth" that may or not have been yours'?

Your description of a strict boarding school where you had group therapy every few months doesn't ring true for me. It seems weird you'd only have therapy once in a blue moon.

We certainly had a highly structured environment. Right down to shower minutes. I'm just glad it wasn't like Straight where you couldn't even go to the loo without being beltlooped.

The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.

Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.

Whooter, I really don't think you can say "inside a TBS" as though you are the authority on every TBS.  Mine didn't have accredited counseling or real academics, and it sure as hell did not teach good nutrition, self care, and the ability to make solid independent decisions.  Others in more recent programs report similar inefficacies.

[Whooter]

The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.

Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.

I have to agree that the high structure was a problem when it came time to come home.  My daughter struggled with the transition home and ended up back with her old friends old habits fairly quickly because the 24/7 structure wasn’t there and it isn’t realistic to expect a family to be able to duplicate that environment.  Fortunately the communication skills she learned allowed her and I to talk openly and she got back on track fairly quickly.

Whooter, I really don't think you can say "inside a TBS" as though you are the authority on every TBS. Mine didn't have accredited counseling or real academics, and it sure as hell did not teach good nutrition, self care, and the ability to make solid independent decisions. Others in more recent programs report similar inefficacies.

Its an old habit I picked up from posting here for many years.  You may have noticed that many posters will say: “programs are abusive” instead of saying something more specific like: “The program I went to, CEDU,  was abusive”.  So I guess I slowly adapted over time and instead of saying ASR I say “TBS’s”.  I will take us all a little while to adjust.

ASR provided outside counseling for my daughter who communicated with her therapist at home which made me feel more comfortable.  Self care may not have been paramount but the nutrition was.  When she got home we were initially making daily trips to Whole foods.  ASR made provisions for many diets,  Vegetarian, Vegan.  The food was actually quite good.  They didn’t grow their own herbs or promote an organic lifestyle but they taught her good nutrition.
The strength on many TBS’s as I have read are that they promote and teach children to be independent and learn that they can achieve a great deal if they pursue it and to believe in themselves.  I have read here that CEDU did not have the same effect(and values) and that is unfortunate.



...

[Che Gookin]

Food at Three Springs was fucking horrifically bad. Food at Eckerds, at least E-Kill-A-Kid, was damn good. The one thing I actually liked about E-Kill-A-Kid was the insistence on the kids learning how to write menus to develop their knowledge of nutrition, budgeting, and basic math.

My group was the only one on campus banned from using calculators.


:smug:

[Maximilian]

So, if you are telling me, Max, that your program was COMPLETELY transparent to parents, you were in luck. But did you have 1 on 1 therapy where no one coerced you into a "truth" that may or not have been yours'?

Well most parents didn't take a tour from what I saw. But for the people who did choose to come, like I said, I know they didn't try very hard to hide things, if they were why would they show them the inside of the isolation room.

Your description of a strict boarding school where you had group therapy every few months doesn't ring true for me. It seems weird you'd only have therapy once in a blue moon.

We had the seminars every couple months. There was a therapist with an office on facility grounds who came from town, but this was optional and parents had to pay extra. I saw this therapist for the last few weeks that I was there once per week for like half an hour. During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that. Then at night we were required to write a couple sentences about what we heard, and how it relates to us. Every night when we were getting ready for bed, someone would yell out and remind us what the topic of the tapes were, since most of us didn't listen. Then we'd write a couple sentences about whatever, and they accepted it. Every week we'd have a meeting with a staff but it wasn't confrontational therapy or anything, just rehashing any group issues. We lived with the same group all the time, so sometimes issued had to be resolved. Besides that it was just the day to day issues of following the rules, that made up like 90% of the program really.

We certainly had a highly structured environment. Right down to shower minutes. I'm just glad it wasn't like Straight where you couldn't even go to the loo without being beltlooped.

We had limited showers as well, usually about 3-5 minutes depending on how the schedule worked out. There was a whole political debate surrounding the showers, and the person in control of that schedule had no trouble making friends. Some shower heads had more pressure than others, and were in a more desired location, etc. When you first get there you get the worst spot on the schedule in the shower that has the lowest pressure, because you're new and at the bottom of the pecking order. I could probably write a whole page just about shower politics, but I don't want to bore people. We also had to clean a lot, lots of things to say about that as well, but I won't right now.

The problem with the highly structured environment is that you can't duplicate it at home. When we got home, we had time to think and started realizing that even our thoughts and beliefs were structured at CEDU. And I'm not talking about turning the negative into the positive either - I wish I was. I'm talking we were not allowed to think as independent, intelligent people.

When I finally got home which took some doing, I was an adult and less controllable. I went back to using and quickly got arrested and forced back into a state hospital and then drug treatment, etc. The story of treatment continued for me after the private program. I don't think I was ever successfully brainwashed by the program, I left the program angry and hated it.

Many TBS's are totally contrived environments that do not in fact, teach it's residents how to cope outside in the real world.

I think that's a fair enough argument. Programs are highly controlled, where as the real world, especially when you turn an adult is like a playground where you can do whatever you want. I do think programs try to help people find new coping skills that they can take with them, but I'm not saying the succeed all the time. All my parent was expecting was  a place that would temporarily keep me safe from myself and they succeeded. Ater that the choice was mine, and yes I kept making some bad choices.

[Che Gookin]

During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that.

Man, I'd be suing the shit out of someone if they forced me to listen to either of those idiots. And that's a page right out of SCL's playbook.

[Ursus]

During meals we listened to motivational tapes like Tony Robbins and Deepok Chopra and people like that.

Man, I'd be suing the shit out of someone if they forced me to listen to either of those idiots. And that's a page right out of SCL's playbook.

First comment on Cassandra Yorgey's piece, "Breaking news: Transcript of private call between James Ray and sweat lodge victims," emphasis added:

by seminar junkie · 11 months ago

If you want a life-altering experience, I'd recommend you attend seminars and read books by self-help experts like

Tony Robbins and James Arthur Ray.[/list][/list]

[RobertBruce]

If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.

I learned more, and was exposed to far more drug use in HLA than I ever was in public school. Kids were constantly looking for ways to get high, and would utilize anything on hand they felt would get the job done. Huffing paint cans, making tea from morning glory, stealing sharpees from the class rooms et cet.

Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.

Counseling from unlicensed hacks using unproven tactics, academics from unlicensed teachers often teaching subjects they know little to nothing about, occasionally being forced to attend NA meetings, constant secondary focus on education, negative reinforcement on any offense, restriction diet used as a punishment, improper handling of medication, and constant upheaval and double standards.

These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse

Or maybe they're just bad parents.

I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives. I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on. The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure. But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.

The kids have no control over anything while locked up in the programs. The brainwashing tactics are designed to be permanent, just some kids are able to withstand it better than others.

[DannyB II]

If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment. Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.

I learned more, and was exposed to far more drug use in HLA than I ever was in public school. Kids were constantly looking for ways to get high, and would utilize anything on hand they felt would get the job done. Huffing paint cans, making tea from morning glory, stealing sharpees from the class rooms et cet.

That is almost completely impossible to fathom, I could understand if you said I learned more about drugs through conversation while in treatment then I did in public school (that would be hard to swallow also) but this observation your suppling here is incredible, Robert. Are you sure you are not confused because your experience in HLA was so traumatic that it has clouded over your public school memories. Just asking?
I am familiar HLA, as a matter of fact it is right in my back yard, I know several kids (now adults) that went there. I am not arguing with you about how screwed up a program it was, because it was.
Hey, I thought you were staff there, not a resident. If I remember correctly you said you were never a resident of a program, I could be confusing you with someone else that resembles you quite well. If I am I apologize.

Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.

Counseling from unlicensed hacks using unproven tactics, academics from unlicensed teachers often teaching subjects they know little to nothing about, occasionally being forced to attend NA meetings, constant secondary focus on education, negative reinforcement on any offense, restriction diet used as a punishment, improper handling of medication, and constant upheaval and double standards.

These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t working or wasn’t present for them. Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence. Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse

Or maybe they're just bad parents.

I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives. I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on. The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure. But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.

The kids have no control over anything while locked up in the programs. The brainwashing tactics are designed to be permanent, just some kids are able to withstand it better than others.

[Anne Bonney]

If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment.   Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.

If it was just that and left out the LGAT/thought-reform crap and was an enjoyable place for them to spend some "time out", you might have a point.  But we all know that's not what it is.

Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.

Said "counseling" is often done by unqualified persons and most of the "counseling" is based on the damn LGATs, as we've seen with Aspen who admits that they don't provide any treatment.  Academics appear to be no better than any public school and quite often worse, as the kids can't use the "credits" they thought they'd accumulated in program because said program's academics are unaccredited.  There's huge peer pressure to conform to the group and 'confess your sins' to them (to later be used against you).  Having unqualified facilitators doing this isn't helpful to anyone, except the program.

These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t  working or wasn’t present for them.  Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence.  Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.

Since most of these places are extremely expensive, the parents could surely take that money to either take the time off necessary to spend with the child or take them hiking through Europe or something similar.  Exposure to a different country's culture can do wonders for the typical American kid.

I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives.

I know you think this, but it's just not true.  If anything, it teaches them dependency on one program or another as most are recommended or required to attend further "meetings" (whether LGAT/AA etc.) as part of their aftercare.

I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on.

I know you think that and it's somewhat true....eventually the 'washing' wears off but not before it's done its core damage to the psyche.  Sure, we eventually get most of our own minds back, but it's like someone's put an egg scrambler to them.  The damage that attack/confrontation "therapy" does, doesn't go away so easily.  That is what can last for years.  Then there are those poor souls who completely fall for the brainwashing and continue, as adults, to be unable to function without some form of dependence on a 'group' and its approval so they seek out  LGAT-like groups (i.e. New Warrior Training/Mankind Project, Scientology).

The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure.

 

They're thrown back into the real world, stripped of all their defenses, broken and confused and expected to resume their lives as though "normal".

But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.

Not really.  I was considered a "success" when I graduated Straight.  The minute...and I mean the very second that I started to question it and its methods, I was deemed a failure, doomed to a life of "deathinsanityorjail".  All Straight did was confuse the shit out of me, make me feel like I was a complete failure and that I was responsible for every single bad thing in my parents' lives.  Hell, I was even told flat out by Ruth Ann Newton, Assistant Director, that the sexual abuse I experienced as a child "was a result of my behavior".  I was fucking 7 goddamned years old and being sexually abused was somehow a "result of my behavior"

These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it.  What a bunch of bullshit.

[DannyB II]

If you really think about it Programs’ main strength is that they can provide a safe haven for kids who just need to be removed from their environment.   Many of the kids just didn’t respond to local services and it was determined that if left to their present path that they would end up in trouble so the only alternative would be to get them the heck out of the environment they were in.

If it was just that and left out the LGAT/thought-reform crap and was an enjoyable place for them to spend some "time out", you might have a point.  But we all know that's not what it is.

Inside a TBS they receive counseling, academics, no peer pressure to take drugs, learn new habits regarding study, self care, better nutrition, highly structured, an environment which can reduce or eliminate their use of present prescribed medication.

Said "counseling" is often done by unqualified persons and most of the "counseling" is based on the damn LGATs, as we've seen with Aspen who admits that they don't provide any treatment.  Academics appear to be no better than any public school and quite often worse, as the kids can't use the "credits" they thought they'd accumulated in program because said program's academics are unaccredited.  There's huge peer pressure to conform to the group and 'confess your sins' to them (to later be used against you).  Having unqualified facilitators doing this isn't helpful to anyone, except the program.

These are all things that can be provided by a stable home life but for some reason wasn’t  working or wasn’t present for them.  Maybe both parents work, maybe they have no extended family to rely on, maybe todays kids don’t rely on family as much and reach out to peers who could be a bad influence.  Maybe the present day medications are making the kids worse.

Since most of these places are extremely expensive, the parents could surely take that money to either take the time off necessary to spend with the child or take them hiking through Europe or something similar.  Exposure to a different country's culture can do wonders for the typical American kid.

I think the program teaches the kids that they can be successful and they are in control of their own lives.

I know you think this, but it's just not true.  If anything, it teaches them dependency on one program or another as most are recommended or required to attend further "meetings" (whether LGAT/AA etc.) as part of their aftercare.

I don’t think there is anything permanent like brainwashing going on.

I know you think that and it's somewhat true....eventually the 'washing' wears off but not before it's done its core damage to the psyche.  Sure, we eventually get most of our own minds back, but it's like someone's put an egg scrambler to them.  The damage that attack/confrontation "therapy" does, doesn't go away so easily.  That is what can last for years.  Then there are those poor souls who completely fall for the brainwashing and continue, as adults, to be unable to function without some form of dependence on a 'group' and its approval so they seek out  LGAT-like groups (i.e. New Warrior Training/Mankind Project, Scientology).

The program values wash off over time as the child slowly immerges back into the world while they are exposed to less structure.

 

They're thrown back into the real world, stripped of all their defenses, broken and confused and expected to resume their lives as though "normal".

But they are on a good path and remember the success they had while in the program which helps them stay the course as they go.

Not really.  I was considered a "success" when I graduated Straight.  The minute...and I mean the very second that I started to question it and its methods, I was deemed a failure, doomed to a life of "deathinsanityorjail".  All Straight did was confuse the shit out of me, make me feel like I was a complete failure and that I was responsible for every single bad thing in my parents' lives.  Hell, I was even told flat out by Ruth Ann Newton, Assistant Director, that the sexual abuse I experienced as a child "was a result of my behavior".  I was fucking 7 goddamned years old and being sexually abused was somehow a "result of my behavior"

These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it.  What a bunch of bullshit.

Anne, why are you talking like this is still going on in programs, today. Were both reading the same articles coming out today and reading the posts here, I have not seen the comparison of what Straight subjected you to as what current children are going through today.
Am I wrong?
I am not trying to convince you that the current programs should meet your expectations but I had thought they had steered away from LGAT's and so forth over the last 4-5 years. I base this on reading posts here and on other sites.

[Troll Control]

Aspen Education's Mount Bachelor Academy was shut down just a few months ago for LGATs, child abuse, child neglect and ritualized sexual abuse.  That's pretty much how Straight operated.  Aspen Education programs still operate on those premeses today (the ones not shut down yet by authorities, that is).

[Maximilian]

These places work off of "the end justifies the means" crap and that anything they do, no matter how crazy, abusive or damaging, as long as it helps someone, anyone or has good intentions, is worth it.  What a bunch of bullshit.

If you had to make a choice as a parent to put your kid in a program or watch them die what would you choose. There aren't a lot of options out there for parents really. Would you rather have your kid complain about LGAT and still be alive? It's exchanging short term hardship for a long term success, which is living the rest of your life. I know people don't agree with this here, but this is how many parents see it.