Not all program kids are innocent

[Maximilian]

Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:

• Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.

• If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.

Thank you!!!  It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points.

Not exactly, these points are just irrelevant to someone going through a program that is not abused, which is a large percentage of the kids, and by far the majority. In fornits land, every kid who goes to a program is "abused", but go talk to people in a different environment than fornits and you'll learn that is not accurate. Fornits takes the position that all programs are abusive, and all the kids in the program are innocent. I know this isn't true, and increasing your font size isn't going to make it any more true. I was placed in what is considered on fornits to be an abusive program. I wasn't innocent, and in the end they saved my life. That's my experience, I'm not basing this off what I read on fornits.

[Shadyacres]

Yes, I consider every single program that uses an LGAT model on teens against their will to be abusive.  This kind of treatment is flagrantly unethical and extremely harmful to a kids ability to grow into a healthy adult.  Being a teenager is hard enough without a forced nervous breakdown and years of identity crisis.  Whatever a child may be "guilty" of, this is a blatant violation of human rights and therefore not a valid punishment.

[Maximilian]

Yes, I consider every single program that uses an LGAT model on teens against their will to be abusive.  This kind of treatment is flagrantly unethical and extremely harmful to a kids ability to grow into a healthy adult.  Being a teenager is hard enough without a forced nervous breakdown and years of identity crisis.  Whatever a child may be "guilty" of, this is a blatant violation of human rights and therefore not a valid punishment.

So even though many kids go through programs with an LGAT model and don't consider themselves abused, you will make that distinction for them? I was never forced to have a nervous breakdown and did not suffer from an identity crisis. I was never abused in any way, and I needed to be kept away from my life at home to save my life. I think we should let people decide for themselves whether or not they were abused, instead of putting that blanket over an entire industry, when it's obviously not true.

[Shadyacres]

Stockholm Syndrome?  Or just a liar who was never in a program?  Or who is still in one?  Parent desperately trying to justify their actions?   Can't decide which is you Max.

[Maximilian]

Stockholm Syndrome?  Or just a liar who was never in a program?  Or who is still in one?  Parent desperately trying to justify their actions?   Can't decide which is you Max.

That's up to the reader to decide, not me. I can't tell other people what to think, all I can do is post about my own experiences. What people choose to do with that information is up to them. I know it helps people's warped versions of reality to dismiss what I say, so if that makes it easier for you, join the club. Plenty of people think I'm fake already, you wouldn't be the first.

[Whooter]

All kids sent to programs are innocent, ask any fornits poster.

Innocent or not, they don't deserve to be abused and it certainly doesn't help them if they are 'troubled'.  The fact is that the kid has no due process, so yes...a lot of "innocent" kids do end up in programs.

Interesting thread....... I think we can all agree that no one deserves to be abused.  I think we can also agree that kids are abused everywhere inside and outside of programs.  The statement "That all kids sent to programs are innocent" is a false perception that we see being fed the readers here on fornits in my opinion.  

What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated?  My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program.  Are there states that require some type of hearing?



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[Anne Bonney]

 The statement "That all kids sent to programs are innocent" is a false perception that we see being fed the readers here on fornits in my opinion.  

The only person I saw saying that was Max, with the possible exception of Psy who stated that people are "innocent until proven guilty".  The fact that you twist it into "Fornits says" is typical.

What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated?  My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program.  Are there states that require some type of hearing?

There should be.  It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs).  There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time.  Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic.  Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy.  Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.

[Whooter]

What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated?  My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program.  Are there states that require some type of hearing?

There should be.  It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs).  There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time.  Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic.  Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy.  Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.

There are many laws that I would like to be passed.  I would like to see a third party sign off on all placements, but this isnt in place yet.  People talk about "Due Process" like it is something that parents deny their children.  It doesnt exist, parents are not denying their kids anything.  If the majority of people really feel that kids should have their day in court then this would be law already, but we live in a democracy and we all need to abide by the rules.

Posters need to stop blaming the parents because of the present laws that are presently put in place.



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[Anne Bonney]

What is this "Due Process" that people think kids are being denied. Where is this defined and stated?  My daughter and I never had to go through this when my daughter was placed into her program.  Are there states that require some type of hearing?

There should be.  It shouldn't be that easy to lock someone away for years at a time, against their will, isolating them from all they know and employing mind control techniques on them (LGATs).  There should be some due process before locking a child away for years at a time.  Let's face it....not all parents motives are altruistic.  Most are, but most are also easily led to believe that they're kids are receiving actual therapy.  Most are also in a vulnerable state and those little questionnaires that programs have on their websites are designed to scare the parents into believing that their kids need to be sent away.

There are many laws that I would like to be passed.  I would like to see a third party sign off on all placements, but this isnt in place yet.  People talk about "Due Process" like it is something that parents deny their children.  It doesnt exist, parents are not denying their kids anything.  If the majority of people really feel that kids should have their day in court then this would be law already, but we live in a democracy and we all need to abide by the rules.

Posters need to stop blaming the parents because of the present laws that are presently put in place.

Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.

[Whooter]

Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.

Exactly,  and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs.    Its the way the laws are structured in this country.  If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers.  I think we can all agree here.



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[Anne Bonney]

Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.

Exactly,  and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs.    Its the way the laws are structured in this country.  If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers.  I think we can all agree here.

No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them.  Obviously you chose not to protect yours.

[Whooter]

Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.

Exactly,  and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs.    Its the way the laws are structured in this country.  If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers.  I think we can all agree here.

No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them.  Obviously you chose not to protect yours.

Well, then tell us the "due process" laws for children in your state.  Can you provide a link?  What needs to be done, laws to be met, prior to placing a child?  What rights do they have along the lines of "Due process"?



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[Son Of Serbia]

Yeah, I know.....as you've told me before, kids don't have any rights.

Exactly,  and that isn't my fault, yours or the programs.    Its the way the laws are structured in this country.  If we want kids to have more rights then we all need to get out and vote and change the present laws, not sit back and point fingers.  I think we can all agree here.

No, kids actually do have rights but they need parents responsible enough to enforce them.  Obviously you chose not to protect yours.

Well, then tell us the "due process" laws for children in your state.  Can you provide a link?  What needs to be done, laws to be met, prior to placing a child?  What rights do they have along the lines of "Due process"?



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Gee Whooter - you must really hate children to get all worked up like this!  Why are you
so adamant that children shouldn't have rights protecting them from being abused?  
What's your stake in all this?

[Whooter]

Gee Whooter - you must really hate children to get all worked up like this!  Why are you
so adamant that children shouldn't have rights protecting them from being abused?  
What's your stake in all this?

Lol,  no you are reading emotion into it.  I am not upset at all.  I never mentioned that children should not have any rights.  In fact I think they should have more rights than they do.  I believe there should be a mandatory third party sign off for all placements into programs.

But I read here so often that kids are denied “Due Process” and I don’t understand where this comes from.  Where are these laws that are being denied?  I have never seen any nor has anyone provided a link.  As far as I know the parents make all the decisions for their children until a certain age. Kids cant go to court and fight against being potty trained or fight against being forced to use a floride toothpaste.  The parents have full control there is no denying of “Due Process” that I can see.

SOS, Do you see my point of view and what points I am questioning?



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[DannyB II]

Re: Innocence or guilt of Program Kids

Postby Anne Bonney » Yesterday, 2:12 pm

Ursus wrote:Regardless of so-called innocence or guilt, I think Anne's points are the more important ones:

       1.

              Anne Bonney wrote:Whether or not a kid is "innocent" has no bearing on their right to not be abused.


       2.

              Anne Bonney wrote:If a kid does have "issues", placing them into an abusive program isn't going to help.


Thank you!!! It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points.

 
 "It seems Max-IT always manages to conveniently overlook the salient points".
   
No I don't believe he was at all, I think Ursus and yourself skipped over his point that kids are doing alot of bad things and are placing themselves in situations that are difficult for there parents and society to deal with.
You decided to tail off on a topic or point of, "no one deserves abuse" that is not relevant here. Maybe both of you just have nothing to say on this topic.
Kids are guilty of doing many bad things and it is troublesome for their parents. Parents anguish over what to do and whether we like it or not some just can not handle the duties. So they start looking else where for help. Many parents find great help right in their own communities, others have to look further out. This thread is not about abusing anyone but there is a level of responsibility placed on the child to become more attentive to his actions. There in lies the punishment for bad decisions, just like restrictions placed on children that misbehave.
No I would never send my child to a rehab or TC strictly as a form of punishment only to be abused while in one of these programs, jesus the horror within that decision and the mindfuck placed on this child.
OK, that being said there is still responsibility that has to be dealt with.