What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?

[psy]

Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.

I was with Aaron for a week.  He hardly drank a drop.  On the last day we bought a 6 pack of imported beer.  I din't finish my first.  I think he had two and a half, maybe, but he's a big guy.  In typical fashion you're accusing others of having problems they dont have, and if they deny it it's just further evidence of their problem.

It's like this episode of "Better Off Ted" I saw today where Ted and Linda are falsely accused of sexual harassment.  When Veronica (their bosses) tries to go to the sexual harassment legal guy she finds out he's a drunk who is out in rehab most of the year because he has a "disease" and the company won't fire him because of it (i would!).  She gets this idea: In order to save Ted and Linda's jobs, she decides to get corporate to reclassify sexual harassment as a "disease" so they can't be held responsible for their actions.  

So Ted and Linda end up in these 12 step based rehab sessions.  Sure there are some genuine pervs there, but it doesn't matter that they're innocent.  Any attempt from Ted and Linda to maintain their innocence is seen as denial, as further evidence of their problem.  It's witch dunking and catch 22.  They're forced to admit to a problem they don't have if they ever want to "graduate".  Meanwhile, predictably, the rest of the office turns into one big orgy of ass slapping, flirtation, and sex as people realize there are no real consequences to their actions.  If they get caught, they just go to rehabilitation classes to deal with their "disease".

To you, because Aaron has admitted to drinking on the forum, he must be an irresponsible alcoholic like you.  One in denial.  Nothing he says, can sway you because in your eyes he's in denial. Nothing I can say will sway you because in your eyes I'm not a drunk, and therefore cannot possibly know what i'm talking about.

[psy]

Hey, I thought you liked me. My last name is Bennison, why was I first.

Nothing personal.  My point was just that we would ban anybody who disagrees with us on whatever.

This is unrelated, but let me ask anyway, Danny: How would you react if somebody came on here claiming Elan saved their life?  What would you think about it?

[Maximilian]

There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.

I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.

Reform, I think what you are missing  what they mean by a disease. My little two cents, take a smoker, over weight person and a alcoholic. What Max is saying is he can never smoke a cigg, eat sugar or drink a beer responsibly again that option is off the table. Not that he is powerless to not drink. It is not a struggle to stay away from these vices been doing it for over 20 years, I just know if I pick up a drink the insanity will follow.
Take a diabetic so long as they eat healthy, exercise and take insulin there fine, some don't even need the insulin just a healthy life yet they still have the disease.
I do not believe AA really meant the word "disease" in its literal sense. I know Bill Wilson had a real problem with the word.

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic. For me drug addiction is like a disease, because I don't feel there is a cure other than to avoid using altogether. That is a choice, but once I make that choice to use again, then the drugs take over and my own intentions become more and more irrelevant as I fall down the rabbit hole. Some people might be able to do some lines on the weekend, or use meth responsibly to stay up and do schoolwork. I take it to a whole other level, and I've talked about it before, like the several times I was refused sale of drugs because the dealers themselves were so concerned I was going to kill myself.

So some people might not have problems with drugs, good for them. I wish I was like them. But for some reason I am drawn to certain drugs and once I start I can't stop until I am forced to, either by the law, intervention, hospitalization or death (been lucky to avoid that so far). To me there is no cure, but to find some way to keep myself from feeling tempted from using. Even though it's been a couple years sobriety from these drugs I have problems with, I still get strong cravings especially when things get difficult.

So going to NA at times like that helps me, and the people have always been kind and nice, non judgmental and wanting to help and also hear what i have to say. So whether people call it a disease, or a curse, or whatever doesn't bother me. But the fact is that the people at NA are some great people who are always there and willing to help no matter what. I don't see how anybody could possibly see these helpful people as bad, or a cult. I just don't get it, I really don't. Maybe when people hating on AA hit rock bottom and have nowhere to turn but AA/NA you will understand. I hope you don't read avoid asking for help from AA/NA just because of what is written here, because the criticisms here do not represent the real guardian angels that will be willing to help you out  at a meeting, when nobody else is willing or able to.

[Botched Programming]

But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?

Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.

Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.

Dude.... When you went to AA you had already made the decision to quit... AA did not make that decision for you... That was an independent thought which I have no problem with... It is the dependence on your beloved :Stepcult like group: the dependence that people put on it is irrational... Their choice is made when they walk in the door... The "Cult like Stepcraft in which they preach is total bullshit as people are not poweless ... It is and always has been a matter of personal choice with people about " THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES...

Peace
 :peace:

[DannyB II]

But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?

Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.

Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.

Dude.... When you went to AA you had already made the decision to quit... AA did not make that decision for you... That was an independent thought which I have no problem with... It is the dependence on your beloved :Stepcult like group: the dependence that people put on it is irrational... Their choice is made when they walk in the door... The "Cult like Stepcraft in which they preach is total bullshit as people are not poweless ... It is and always has been a matter of personal choice with people about " THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE THEIR LIVES...

Peace
 :peace:

Botch what the hell are you doing, prophesying while your drunk....com'on sailor. :rofl:  :rofl:

Just kidding!!!

[Maximilian]

I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.

[none-ya]

I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.

You keep repeating the same story over and over. move on.

[RobertBruce]

Max you seem to keep avoiding Psy's questions regarding the tenents of a cult and how fornits fits them. Hence bringing things back around to what you claim is the problem with fornits. I'll ask you to answer the question, or in simpiler terms back up your own position. You and those who are like you look at that as being attacked or being silenced. This is no different than the situation with Whooter. I'm by no means blackmailing him into silence, in fact I'm encouraging him to speak out. How I'm treating him is no different than how the programs that you and he love, and that many of us claim are abusive, treated us. He's being forced to accept the consequences for his actions. No one is asking him to lie despite his cries to the contrary, so where in your mind lies the problem?

[Shadyacres]

I know what it's like to be powerless over drug use, to the degree of using even when you know the next use might be your last. It's at that point that you realize addiction is real, when you are willing to keep using and kill yourself. This is also when I learned it was OK to ask for help, because I obviously couldn't stop on my own, I just couldn't. People can call it a choice all they want, but it doesn't change the fact of how drugs can take over common sense, and make you do things to yourself you would never otherwise do. Being sober helps you regain power over your own life, and that is what AA provides so people should be grateful and thank them rather than condemn them for this life saving service. The hatred towards AA here really bothers me because the best people I've ever met, the most selfless and people who will give you their shirt off their back, I met at AA/NA.

Max, I know what it's like to THINK you are powerless over drug use, but this is an illusion.  Young people often have problems with things that will no longer be problematic once they mature.  Like the first time you had a crush on a girl.  Your feelings toward this girl might "take over your common sense" or " make you do things you would never otherwise do", but this does not mean that you are and always will be powerless over girls.  Teenagers are not finished products and to label them "addicts for life" is cruel and unethical.

[Maximilian]

I get it. A lot of posters here think addiction is simply a choice people make, or a bad habit. I happen to agree with AA that addiction is a serious issue that never really goes away. I appreciate the efforts to educate me as to what people view as truth, but I have reached my own conclusions based on my own experiences with addiction and with AA/NA, and that's just the way I feel. This thread made a simple point. That point is that AA is mainstream, and that fornits is considered pretty out there, politically speaking. This is how I view the reality, not based on simply hanging around fornits, mostly by talking to real people and people outside of fornits, who have an outside perspective. This place has a reputation for being where the crazy people post, I"m not saying that, but that's what other people tell me. I actually like fornits, and the open conversation. I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.

[RobertBruce]

I wish people would be more open to have an honest conversation and to other people's opinions, but I think that will get better over time.

I know just what you mean. I wish people like you, Whooter, Danny, et cet were more open to the fact that many people were abused in these programs. That being said though, I've been posting here for years, and it doesn't seem as if your side will ever open to those facts or will be willing to really listen to the other side.

[Maximilian]

I've always accepted the fact kids are abused in programs, and some have been killed. These are facts that cannot be ignored, and why should they? Everybody should be working on how to make programs safer and more effective. Over time I think programs do improve and get better. You can search my old posts, I've always acknowledged that some people are abused, and have negative experiences. I've been waiting for some reciprocity in this admission, but I am met with conspiracy theories about who I really am, or if I really went to a program. Just because some people are abused, doesn't mean everybody is. I wasn't, and as I've explained before the program actually saved my life through it's restrictiveness and strict rules. When people make threads talking about how they were abused, I don't go in and post that I think they are full of shit, or post disgusting pictures in an attempt to censor the conversation. Yet it happens to me all the time. I never posted people's personal information in an attempt to shut them up, about how they were abused. Yet it happens to anyone with an inkling of pro treatment views with regularity.

I've always been open to hear people's experiences, and have always taken them at face value. I'll await a quote of myself telling somebody what they think happened to them, really in fact did not happen. I don't do that, because I'm not that arrogant to assume I know better than other people. I know some people were abused, and they post here. This forum claims to be open to all opinions, and the fact I had a positive experience and it saved my life is rarely acknowledged or accepted as reality. It's mostly met with reasons why they can dismiss what I say altogether. So I find it highly ironic that these same people request that I stop telling people who were abused, that they weren't. Because I've never done that, yet that exact thing happens to me every time I post here. But hey, I'm used to the fornits double standard by this point.

But I am going to have to refrain from talking with you RobertBruce. I feel uncomfortable talking to people who thinks it's ok to threaten to release personal information about people, and who believe in conspiracy theories about Whooter's identity with no proof. To me this proves you are an extremist who is willing to bully innocent people, and send them creepy letters about their family members suicide just to win an online argument with Whooter. If you can mature a bit I will be open to a conversation with you, but until then I am going to have to ignore you.

[Eliscu2]

:eek:

[RobertBruce]

I feel uncomfortable talking to people who thinks it's ok to threaten to release personal information about people,

Then you should probably hold off on talking to Whooter as well, again he started this game, not us. He's just not especially good at it. I don't really care if you talk to me or not. So far you seem unable to provide any real information about your expereiences, and are only interested in playing games.

[Eliscu2]

:rasta: