What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?

[Shadyacres]

Max, do you also go down to the Holocaust Museum and tell all the folks you find there that most Nazis were actually very generous, caring people?

[Maximilian]

Max, do you also go down to the Holocaust Museum and tell all the folks you find there that most Nazis were actually very generous, caring people?

How creative and unique, comparing the troubled teen industry and AA to the holocaust, and the people who work for them to Nazis. Surely this makes perfect sense to a fornits extremist, but this type of emotional propaganda used in an attempt to shame people into silence, will not work with me. I have experienced a so called abusive program, and I wasn't abused. I went to AA and wasn't brainwashed and met some of the best people in my life. But expressing these views on fornits, an open free for all forum welcoming all opinions relating to the treatment industry, is akin to telling holocaust victims that Nazis are nice guys. Sure, that makes perfect sense, what a logical comparison I'm surprised nobody here has made it before. Perhaps you should put out a memo that we "survivors" should now refer to the programs we went to as concentration camps, instead of gulags. It brings up a little more emotion, don't you think? Who cares about accuracy of the comparison, or the diminishing the true suffering Jews went through, let's milk this propaganda for everything it's worth, what do you say?

[psy]

How creative and unique, comparing the troubled teen industry and AA to the holocaust, and the people who work for them to Nazis. Surely this makes perfect sense to a fornits extremist, but this type of emotional propaganda used in an attempt to shame people into silence, will not work with me. I have experienced a so called abusive program, and I wasn't abused. I went to AA and wasn't brainwashed and met some of the best people in my life. But expressing these views on fornits, an open free for all forum welcoming all opinions relating to the treatment industry, is akin to telling holocaust victims that Nazis are nice guys. Sure, that makes perfect sense, what a logical comparison I'm surprised nobody here has made it before. Perhaps you should put out a memo that we "survivors" should now refer to the programs we went to as concentration camps, instead of gulags. It brings up a little more emotion, don't you think? Who cares about accuracy of the comparison, or the diminishing the true suffering Jews went through, let's milk this propaganda for everything it's worth, what do you say?

You're missing the point of what he's saying. He's saying you're coming here to a forum where people were abused by X entity and saying those people at X entity were actually quite nice to you...  and apart from being a WWASP program you refuse to answer any questions about it.  All you say is "the program saved my life".

Hardly a week goes by without you starting a new thread about it.  Here's one from a week or so ago, entitled "How a program saved my life". You're not talking about AA.  You're talking about WWASP.  You just support AA because you know that this is an unmoderated forum and inevitably others here will attack it and that will make them look "crazy" to outsiders, tainting all other criticism coming from the same "side" of the argument.  Truth is there are many sides to the argument here.  There are those who support AA who would never, ever, support WWASP.  EVER.  You're just about the only person I know who will defend WWASP.  I've never even seen Whooter do it.

Furthermore, you made up a story about being "blackmailed" to make the forum look bad.  You denied it until you asked for proof. When that was presented you feigned outrage.  After a while you started claiming it was satire.  How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all?  If you read around this link, there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.

Hell. I'm not going to bother retyping what I did before.

I am free to post satire if I want, it's not against the rules here. Neither is posting under another username. It's obvious that thread bothered you a lot. I think it was so over the top, it was obviously tongue in cheek and most people figured that out on the first page.

Satire?  Let's let the readers decide  You made very clear and very serious allegations of fact.  You first wrote:

I am taking an indefinite break from fornits starting from this point. It has been made clear to me via email and text message that somebody here is not happy with my opinions and is threatening to fax my posts about drug use and suicide to my boss, which they confirmed they know who it is. I am a new employee and this drama would likely end in me being fired, and unfortunately I cannot take this chance at this point in my life. I have stated my opinions, and you know how I truly feel. I was instructed to post this thread titled "I am a bitch" and to confirm that I am really a program parent pretending to be a troubled teen because I'm brainwashed. Well I did it, but I will not leave without an explanation. I know you are reading this. I did what you asked, if you have any semblance of a soul you will let this end now. If I get fired it's not just my life that will be ruined, people depend on me. I'd ask that all my posts are deleted but I know they have already been copied. So long, fornits.

Turns out there was no blackmail. You created PosterX to scare others off.  Satire?  When I did this, you disappeared.  Probably took you a while to come up with a way out...  So you decided to "stand up for free speech" despite fictional risks to your job and changed your story to this:

This thread documents the failed attempt to blackmail me into silence. This is a common occurrence on this forum, beware releasing personal information to people here, say the wrong thing, and that info might be used against you.

I don't see the satire.  You made serious false allegations.  If your arguments "stand on your own" then why the need to defame others who disagree with you.  You know damn well what you did.  Why should anybody believe you when you say you were in a program.  Apart from you claiming it was a WWASP program there are no other details...  probably because a good portion of WWASP schools got shut down by the authorities and the other half caved in to bad PR.

If you went to SCLA, chances are you were at some point locked in the hobbit.  If you went to TB maybe Jay Kay or Randall Hinton pepper sprayed you until you got chemical burns.  How about the dog cages at High Impact.  Even the mexicans were appalled.  Everybody from the FTC to the State Department has said "stay the hell away".  Montana PBS did their own documentary  (covers a good few WWASP programs).  Is THAT how they saved your life.  TELL ME.  You claim they saved you life then I want to hear more than pathetic anecdote.  I want to hear you describe what they had to do to break you down and I want to hear you justify it.  I want to hear you justify the beatings.  Don't lie to me and say it did't happen because in EVERY single WWASP program there has been documented and often well publicized abuse.  Tell me how beating you down and training you like a dog was justified.  Tell me why it was necessary!

[psy]

Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?

By the way. I do answer good faith questions from people who are respectful.

You don't seem to be answering questions from anybody at all.

Two people have asked questions so far. You and Joel. I answered Joel. You showed me your agenda yesterday when you broke your own rules and released my personal info against my wishes,

I posted no personal information of yours and you expressly indicated that I did exactly what you wanted me to do, what you admitted quite clearly was your desireto have done: post proof that you fabricated the blackmail story.  Not to bring it up again but did you or did you not desire to have me post proof.  Consider your statements such as "I was hoping for this precise outcome" and "Post your proof I'm posterX, I'm waiting."  You're a liar.  Nothing more, and because you are a liar about that I do not believe the rest of your story.  I do not believe you were in a program.  You claim you will not answer questions but since there is no rational reason not to, I believe you cannot.  You can call us crazy conspiracy theorists like you did last time when people suspected you were PosterX, comparing it to Obama's birth certificate.  They were right back then despite your whooping and hollering and chances are, they're right now too.

so I know you aren't asking in good faith. Perhaps in time, I might trust you enough to answer your questions, if you can prove to me with your posts from now on that you are in fact interested in hearing another perspective on what happens in programs. Most people here are openly hostile to this idea, of an open free for all discussion, your actions yesterday also took away from this claim. I'll post what I feel like, and answer questions when I feel like it. Like I said, I don't care what people think about me here. I'm not pushing any agenda, don't you think if I was pushing WWASP programs I'd link to them, or talk about specifics?

No, I don't, because specifics are generally very easy to refute in the case of well known programs like WWASP.  There is video tape of Randall Hinton admitting he pepper sprays kids repeatedly into compliance.  There is testimony of a parent who came unannounced and saw a kid duct taped to a chair (in a US based program).  There is consierable evidence of abuse at Spring Creek Lodge and corruption with the local authorities as documented in the PBS documentary, Who's Watching the kids.  There is video tape, taken by the mexican authorities and given to Inside Edition of kids tied down in the sun in dog cages at High Impact.  There is mountains of sworn testimony.  There is the ex-director of Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica who came foward as a whistleblower and detailed horiffic accounts of abuse.  There are photos of the unsanitary and inhuman isolation rooms.  There is solid documentary evidence to connect the Premier Workshops to LifeSpring.

There ample evidence of deceptive marketing practiced, as evidenced on this forum (we've even been spammed by WWASP spambots).  There are well documented and supported horror stories for just about every single WWASP program.  Kids forced by staff to abuse other kids in the name of their treatment.  Unsafe restraints...  Even deaths.  WWASP is absolutely the easiest to pick apart.  The reason you don't mention your program is that you know that as soon as you do i'll pile on the evidence and blow your story full of holes. Just like your earlier games you played on the "boo hoo, somebody blackmailed me" thread, you're stuck, and you don't know how to continue. Your'e used to speaking to the uninformed. Your'e used to speaking to parents who do not know the right questions to ask. You're used to being able to persuade with emotion and the standard "program saved my life" marketing spiel.  Solid fact is not something you deal in and when confronted you are incapable of response.  That is the reason you do not respond, not out of some feigned offense.

I offend you?  You sicken me.

I'm here to tell the truth about my experiences, I'm reluctant to release personal information to a mob of people who are obviously hostile towards me.

Information about a program is not personal information.  Cut the manipulation and quit with the "waah...  personal information... waah...  i'm not answering you... you're a meanie!".

[Maximilian]

You're missing the point of what he's saying. He's saying you're coming here to a forum where people were abused by X entity and saying those people at X entity were actually quite nice to you...  and apart from being a WWASP program you refuse to answer any questions about it.  All you say is "the program saved my life".

So what options do I have then. Should I avoid fornits altogether because some people had negative experiences? This forum invites my opinion, in the very description of it's purpose. I accepted this invitation and choose to post here. Should I not be honest about what I experienced? Should I keep it to myself that I was not abused, and had some good experiences there? Why should I censor myself? If other people's experiences were so horrible, they are free to share with everyone just as I do. Instead of trying to pressure me into silence about what I experienced, perhaps they should focus on what they experienced and share that, because hating on me doesn't take away from the fact that yes, a program that most people here consider abusive, did in fact save my life. It's restrictiveness saved my life, keeping me against my will from my self destructive lifestyle saved me. I'm sorry if that offends people, or people find it unethical. But the real world result is me being alive, so I am belatedly thankful to the program for that.







 

Hardly a week goes by without you starting a new thread about it.  Here's one from a week or so ago, entitled "How a program saved my life". You're not talking about AA.  You're talking about WWASP.  You just support AA because you know that this is an unmoderated forum and inevitably others here will attack it and that will make them look "crazy" to outsiders, tainting all other criticism coming from the same "side" of the argument.  Truth is there are many sides to the argument here.  There are those who support AA who would never, ever, support WWASP.  EVER.  You're just about the only person I know who will defend WWASP.  I've never even seen Whooter do it.

I don't support AA to make you guys look crazy, believe me, you do that all on your own. I like AA because I had many real life experiences related to it, both NA and AA. I went to several treatment centers besides the one listed on this forum, and attended AA for several years. I share my opinions because that's how I feel, I'm not here trying to manipulate other people into acting crazy. That is not necessary, the crazy is on full display here despite my AA feelings. Everybody has an individual truth. Some people have good program experiences, others have bad. Some people do well in AA, others leave. People here seem unable to make this distinction, and wish to dismiss my opinions altogether. Sorry, but people like me really do exist in real life, it's not a big conspiracy to bring down fornits.

[/b]

Furthermore, you made up a story about being "blackmailed" to make the forum look bad.  You denied it until you asked for proof. When that was presented you feigned outrage.  After a while you started claiming it was satire.  How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all?  If you read around this link, there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.

Like I said before. I don't need to "make this forum look bad". Blackmailing a family and posting a porn page about them looks bad. Blackmailing Whooter into silence, that looks bad. What I did was a joke, and it lasted less than 2 days. Most posters here have already forgotten about it, new posters will never know about it. Nobody was hurt with my satirical thread, it was fiction. The intimidation and blackmailing going on towards 15 year old girls families, and Whooter, that is very much real. Like I said, I am not necessary in order to discredit the safety of posting here. Had I never posted here, people would still see the blackmailing and threats going on, and act accordingly. I simply choose to point it out, and bring attention to it, in that case with a satirical thread claiming I was being blackmailed. Like I said in another thread, I try to promote discussion rather than stifle it. Isn't that what this place is, a discussion forum? Sometimes it doesn't seem that way.

[Maximilian]

Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?

Perhaps you can milk that satire thread a bit longer, and use it to discredit me amongst the cult faithful that reside here. I do find it funny that rather than accept the idea that somebody might have a good experience in a program, and admit it saved their life and enjoy AA, that it's easier for your conspiratorial minds to dismiss such a possibility altogether. It's a big conspiracy! He must be Whooter! He must really be a program parent! I'm just someone who is willing to get real, and not be pressured to hold certain views on programs just to fit in with the group.To me,  fornits represents a distorted view into the treatment industry, because what I experienced myself does not resemble the rhetoric about gulags and abuse I read here so often. So I choose to share my opinions, and be honest about my own experience. I accepted fornits invitation to this free for all debate welcoming all points of view, if my writing bothers people so much, ignore it and read other threads. There are plenty of threads that talk about how bad programs are here, if that's your taste then feel free to skip over mine, I won't mind at all.

[psy]

new posters will never know about it

I'll make sure they know.  You are a liar.

[psy]

Was Max / SUCK IT actually in a program?

Perhaps you can milk that satire thread a bit longer, and use it to discredit me amongst the cult faithful that reside here. I do find it funny that rather than accept the idea that somebody might have a good experience in a program

In a WWASP program?  Sorry.  No.  I could believe somebody escaped relatively unscathed in some programs, but a good experience... in a WWASP program?  Unless you're into S&M, it's just not possible.  Especially since you won't answer any questions about the program you were in.

because what I experienced myself does not resemble the rhetoric about gulags and abuse I read here so often.

And yet you won't answer any questions, as the other thread showed.  The seminars?  Oh?  You're sworn to secrecy?  And it went on like that.

You claim everybody is entitled to their own truth.  No.  People are entitled to their own opinions, sure, but not their own facts.  There is objective truth.  The sea is not made up of cheerios.  The sky is not neon green.  The authorities shut down WWASP programs because they were abusing kids.  Unfortunately they pop back up like mushrooms, no matter how many times they're stomped out.

You were either not in a program or you suffered so much you identify with your captors to the point where you refuse to see what they did to you as abuse.  Personally I find the former far, far, more likely because i've never heard of a WWASP survivor holding onto the "program saved my life" spiel for more than a few years after leaving.

No, I don't, because specifics are generally very easy to refute in the case of well known programs like WWASP.  There is video tape of Randall Hinton admitting he pepper sprays kids repeatedly into compliance.  There is testimony of a parent who came unannounced and saw a kid duct taped to a chair (in a US based program).  There is consierable evidence of abuse at Spring Creek Lodge and corruption with the local authorities as documented in the PBS documentary, Who's Watching the kids.  There is video tape, taken by the mexican authorities and given to Inside Edition of kids tied down in the sun in dog cages at High Impact.  There is mountains of sworn testimony.  There is the ex-director of Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica who came foward as a whistleblower and detailed horiffic accounts of abuse.  There are photos of the unsanitary and inhuman isolation rooms.  There is solid documentary evidence to connect the Premier Workshops to LifeSpring.

If you went to SCLA, chances are you were at some point locked in the hobbit.  If you went to TB maybe Jay Kay or Randall Hinton pepper sprayed you until you got chemical burns.  How about the dog cages at High Impact.  Even the mexicans were appalled.  Everybody from the FTC to the State Department has said "stay the hell away".  Montana PBS did their own documentary  (covers a good few WWASP programs).  Is THAT how they saved your life.  TELL ME.  You claim they saved you life then I want to hear more than pathetic anecdote.  I want to hear you describe what they had to do to break you down and I want to hear you justify it.  I want to hear you justify the beatings.  Don't lie to me and say it did't happen because in EVERY single WWASP program there has been documented and often well publicized abuse.  Tell me how beating you down and training you like a dog was justified.  Tell me why it was necessary!

[Maximilian]

How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all?  If you read around this link, there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.

People will believe what they need to here in order to dismiss my opinions altogether without consideration. One of the easiest conspiracy theories giving people this intellectual deniability is suggesting I was never in a program at all. Because it makes perfect sense, somebody who never went to a program would spend their time posting on a forum claiming they had. Or better yet, perhaps I am secretly an agent of the troubled teen industry, and get payed by the word to counteract the great threat to the industry that is fornits. People are free to believe what they want about me, I really could care less. I am not going to jump through hoops to prove myself to the people who post here.

But like I said, people are free to believe what they want. It doesn't bother me in the least if people don't believe me,it really doesn't. Other people's reactions to my opinions vary depending on whether I type it on fornits, or talk to people in real life. The only time I am questioned, attacked and discredited is on fornits. My own experiences won't change whether I type them here, or on my own private blog, and I will never be able to control people's reactions to what I say, nor do I wish to. I will keep posting here even if every single person here thinks I am full of shit, I am comfortable with my own truth and sharing it and will not be bullied into silence.

[Maximilian]

In a WWASP program?  Sorry.  No.  I could believe somebody escaped relatively unscathed in some programs, but a good experience... in a WWASP program?  Unless you're into S&M, it's just not possible.  Especially since you won't answer any questions about the program you were in.

You seem unable to go a couple posts without labeling me a liar, a defamer, etc. But I am also supposed to believe you are interested in having an honest conversation and really interested in hearing why I had positive experiences in a supposedly abusive program? Sorry but I don't believe that. You are interested in political grandstanding, and I will not be your whipping boy. You'll have to find someone else for that, sorry!

And yet you won't answer any questions, as the other thread showed.  The seminars?  Oh?  You're sworn to secrecy?  And it went on like that.

You claim everybody is entitled to their own truth.  No.  People are entitled to their own opinions, sure, but not their own facts.  There is objective truth.  The sea is not made up of cheerios.  The sky is not neon green.  The authorities shut down WWASP programs because they were abusing kids.  Unfortunately they pop back up like mushrooms, no matter how many times they're stomped out.

I was never abused, or saw anybody abused. That's is my facts, based on my own experiences. Did you go to a WwASP program? Because you seem to know an awful lot of what goes on inside of them, claiming everybody is abused and such. Well I was never abused, I can't speak for other people. But to assume that everybody has a negative experience based on a limited sample here, is not an accurate assumption.

You were either not in a program or you suffered so much you identify with your captors to the point where you refuse to see what they did to you as abuse.  Personally I find the former far, far, more likely because i've never heard of a WWASP survivor holding onto the "program saved my life" spiel for more than a few years after leaving.

Ah, so I am somehow incapable of understanding my own experiences and coming to my own conclusions, gotcha. There is a third possibility you leave out, that is that I was a troubled teen desperately in need of strict control away from my life, and it worked. I grew up, and realized it was time to get honest with myself and finally give the program the credit it deserves minus the pity party for myself. Why is this so unbelievable? Only because fornits has created it's own reality, with only two possible outcomes as you describe, when in reality the possibilities are infinite.

[psy]

How is anybody to believe you were in a program at all?  If you read around this link, there is considerable evidence to suggest you were never in a program at all.

People will believe what they need to here in order to dismiss my opinions altogether without consideration. One of the easiest conspiracy theories giving people this intellectual deniability is suggesting I was never in a program at all.

You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you made the whole Blackmail up.  You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you were PosterX.  Both of those things turned out to be true.  You've cried wolf too many times...  and with those exact same words.

Because it makes perfect sense, somebody who never went to a program would spend their time posting on a forum claiming they had.

It's happened many times in the past. People come here claiming to have been in a program and swearing it saved their lives. When asked detailed questions about what the program was like they can't name any.  When IPs are checked as one admin (who is not here anymore) used to do, it would be discovered that the messages originated from the program itself.  It used to be far more common.  There have even been court cases dealing with it.  When Lon Woodbury's old forum was ripped apart it was discovered that Sue Scheff had been impersonating many many teens and parents.  Stop acting like it's implausible when you already know about these things.

Or better yet, perhaps I am secretly an agent of the troubled teen industry, and get payed by the word to counteract the great threat to the industry that is fornits. People are free to believe what they want about me, I really could care less. I am not going to jump through hoops to prove myself to the people who post here.

You're dismissive.  Feigned indignation.  Very good.

But like I said, people are free to believe what they want. It doesn't bother me in the least if people don't believe me,it really doesn't. Other people's reactions to my opinions vary depending on whether I type it on fornits, or talk to people in real life. The only time I am questioned, attacked and discredited is on fornits.

Of course, because when most people say "i was a drug addicts and this program saved my life" they have no reason to question it.  When you learn that kids come out of the most horrific programs saying the exact same things (only to denounce it later), your perspective starts to change, especially when you understand thought reform.

My own experiences won't change whether I type them here, or on my own private blog, and I will never be able to control people's reactions to what I say, nor do I wish to. I will keep posting here even if every single person here thinks I am full of shit, I am comfortable with my own truth and sharing it and will not be bullied into silence.

You're sharing your opinions, not your "truth".  Actually, there's a good deal of false statement of fact in there as well.

[DannyB II]

But now imagine, you come to fornits and ask for advice. You explain that you lost everything because you are an alcoholic/addict and don't know how to help yourself. Then a red titled poster (must be the cult leader) shows up and tells you that everything in your life is a choice. You chose to lose your family, your home, and all your friends because you chose to be a alcoholic and drug addict. You have a bad habit, which you chose, and you can simply choose to stop using alcohol or drugs, if you really wanted to. You are not powerless over your addiction, you are in full control and the solution to all your problems is just to choose not to be an alcoholic or drug addict anymore. How would this make you feel?

Hopefully like a complete asshole, which is exactly what this sort of person is. Only a complete asshole drinks their life away to this extent. Fuck em and the horse the rode in on if they are going to get even a drop of pity from me for being so poorly in control of themselves that they can't stop boozing long enough to remember they have damn family.

Che, look in the mirror. What your 30yrs. something and still acting like 18yrs. booze has a lot to do with this.

[Maximilian]

You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you made the whole Blackmail up.  You called it a conspiracy theory when people started claiming you were PosterX.  Both of those things turned out to be true.  You've cried wolf too many times...  and with those exact same words.

Because I'm the only one to post under another name, right? I'll be waiting for your condemnation of all the other posters who do this, including DJ who was recently outed when his posts were connected together. Oh wait, it only bothers you when someone with pro treatment views does it, right? But hey, keep following me around the forum, and quoting the same post over and over and hope people think I am a liar, after all, that's the point right?

It's happened many times in the past. People come here claiming to have been in a program and swearing it saved their lives. When asked detailed questions about what the program was like they can't name any.  When IPs are checked as one admin (who is not here anymore) used to do, it would be discovered that the messages originated from the program itself.  It used to be far more common.  There have even been court cases dealing with it.  When Lon Woodbury's old forum was ripped apart it was discovered that Sue Scheff had been impersonating many many teens and parents.  Stop acting like it's implausible when you already know about these things.

More evidence to feed your conspiracy theory, don't let me get in the way. It doesn't bother me if you think I am Sue Scheff pretending to be a "survivor". If you really believe I am fake, then why do you waste your time talking to me? I sure wouldn't' waste my time with someone I thought was "fake".

Of course, because when most people say "i was a drug addicts and this program saved my life" they have no reason to question it.  When you learn that kids come out of the most horrific programs saying the exact same things (only to denounce it later), your perspective starts to change, especially when you understand thought reform.

Well I came out of the porgram saying it sucked, it took some maturing and being able to look at myself and my actions honestly to finally come to the conclusion that, at least in my case, the program was both necessary and life saving. I was never brainwashed, I am just at a place in my life where fitting in at fornits isn't as important to me as being real with myself. Perhaps every other kid every sent to a program was an innocent child who only smoked 1 cigarette. I do not fall into that category, my parents tried everything before that. I was destroying myself, the program stopped me from doing so. So the fact is, they saved my life. Not because of seminars or therapy. Because of the very simple action of physically removing me from my destructive home situation and my access to dangerous drugs, and other things that I used to hurt myself. They watched me all the time, like a baby, and kept me from harming myself. This isn't particularly enjoyable to admit it, but it's the truth.

You're sharing your opinions, not your "truth".  Actually, there's a good deal of false statement of fact in there as well.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night. But despite your denials, I am real and so are my experiences.

[DannyB II]

There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.

I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.

Reform, I think what you are missing  what they mean by a disease. My little two cents, take a smoker, over weight person and a alcoholic. What Max is saying is he can never smoke a cigg, eat sugar or drink a beer responsibly again that option is off the table. Not that he is powerless to not drink. It is not a struggle to stay away from these vices been doing it for over 20 years, I just know if I pick up a drink the insanity will follow.
Take a diabetic so long as they eat healthy, exercise and take insulin there fine, some don't even need the insulin just a healthy life yet they still have the disease.
I do not believe AA really meant the word "disease" in its literal sense. I know Bill Wilson had a real problem with the word.

[DannyB II]

What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?
 
Very Plausable,and an interesting topic

Fornits doesn't fit a single one of Singer's 6 conditions or Lifton's 8 criteria for thought reform.

Fornits is simply a forum for discussion.  The people here share a wide variety of opinions.  It's freer than pretty much any forum or private establishment out there.  No cults or cult-like groups will allow you to come onto their property and insult the group incessantly, yet that's exactly what's allowed here.  99.9% of the internet's forums, including 4chan, have more active moderation than Fornits.

1. If Fornits is a cult, who would be the leader?

2. If Fornits is a cult, how does it control it's members?

3. If Fornits is a cult, why does it tolerate all viewpoints (even though individual members may not respect them).

If Fornits were a cult Ginger and I would ban Danny Benisson.  We would ban SUCK IT / Max.  We would ban TheWho.  We would ban anybody who didn't either tow the party line or we felt we couldn't convert.  We would have secret forums, most likely with secret teachings or secret ideologies.  We would pressure our members to report on each other and confess their darkest sins to a central authority.  We would need a way to control people's time and communication so we would need to find a way to isolate a person from all outside criticism.

Hey, I thought you liked me. My last name is Bennison, why am I first one getting banned.