Calling it a disease is a cop out

[Botched Programming]

Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss.  :seg:

[shaggys]

Excellent thread topic Botched. As I stated in a previous post I dont buy the "its a disease" cop out either. "Pathological self-indulgence" would be a better term to describe most folks with a drug "problem". They dont stop because ultimately they choose not to stop. It seems quite simple to me.

[Anne Bonney]

It really does boil down to that.  If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, you need to make a decision to stop.  Period.  I'm not saying it's easy by any means, but that's what it really comes down to.  I'm not saying people don't need help in stopping, but to call it a 'disease' does a dis-service to real diseases and, as you said, absolves the person of their own personal responsibility.  Look at what happens every time some goddamned celebrity gets caught doing something, even unrelated to drug use......they go into rehab and all is forgiven.  AO has some really good stuff regarding the disease model and how he stopped and he gives alternatives to AA for those that want help but don't want to join the cult.  He also has a section devoted to "What's good about AA".  http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-whats_good.html

Lizard Brain Addiction Monster:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html


And some of the letters he gets....he responds to every single one.  Sometimes it takes him a while because he's bombarded with mail, but he does answer all of them.  They're quite enlightening.    Mail in green, his answers in blue.


http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-let ... what_works

Date: 20.07.2009 03:45     (answered 21 July 2009)
Subject: Staying off alcohol
Sender: Lynn C.

Hi Orange, Thank you so much for your papers. I have attended AA off and on now for almost 36 years and have remained on and off alcohol for 36 years. Yes, I guess you will agree with me that AA DOES NOT WORK. I too questioned all their psychobabble and psudo crap for years — in my mind of course because if one dares to speak aloud you will be shunned — and told you are "in denial" whatever that sack load of shit is supposed to mean.

No, I am not a bad person, I do not need to confess all my sins, certainly no more than the next person, I do not have a higher power (even if it is a No.9 bus?!!!!!!!!!!) yes I have actually been told to believe that. I do not need religion, I do not need to hear any more of their stories, interesting they may be at first but its like seeing a film or reading a book twenty times, one gets BORED. I do not need to attend any more dreadful meetings that tell me "keep coming back". I am a perfectly rounded human being, I am a totally fabulous person that likes socialising with friends, family and workmates. I love parties, I love going out for meals, I have brought up a beautiful daughter who is a credit to me. I work, I have a stimulating and wonderful hobby, I have loads of wonderful friends, I have a supportive family who love me. I am popular and a happy, healthy person who loves life.

BUT................. I have found that alcohol for me is a problem, when I drink it I find I cannot stop at a reasonable level but have to go on and on, like you said until I make myself very ill, or even die, although hopefully not yet. I have tried many times to give up alcohol myself and have succeeded for weeks and even months. The longest I lasted was 5 years. I just wonder if you have any magic ingredient in developing a mind-set to get off the stuff completely. I just feel I am missing out when I abstain completely, yes I know its all an illusion and that the bad times are not worth the good. I know loads of people who have given up totally on their on accord and live very happy, healthy lives thank you very much. I just think perhaps I even need hypnosis, this is the only path I haven't tried.

Got any hints and tips.

Thanks
Lily

PS I gave up smoking in 2006 so I'm not that weak!!


Hi Lily,

Thanks for the letter, and I hope you are well.

Yes, I have some hints and techniques.

   1. My favorite technique is being aware of what the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster is doing. Quitting is one thing; staying quit is something very different. And I found that it was almost invariably the stupid Lizard Brain Addiction Monster that got me into trouble when I was tempted to have a cigarette or a drink after I had quit. He would whisper things like,
          * "We've got it under control now. It's been so long since we've had one, with no cheating whatsoever, so we've got it under control now."
          * "We deserve to relax and have just one now. It will be okay."
          * "Just one won't hurt."
          * "I'm so stressed out right now, I just need a little hit of something to get things on an even keel."
          * "We are missing out on the good times when we completely abstain."
          * "We are missing out on all of the good stuff in life, so let's join these other people and have a good time."
          * "Heck, you only live once, so let's live it with all of the gusto that we can."

      Then he will use brain-damaged logic like,
          * "Look at all of those people drinking in moderation. So we can do it too."
          * "Cigarettes aren't hurting those people. They are in perfect health."
          * "Time to return to normalcy and be like everybody else."
          * "Time to come home to the good times."
          * "Why say why?"
          * "There's nothing wrong with a vacation once in a while."
          * and on, and on...

      Above all, remember that the Lizard Brain's thoughts are not your thoughts. He will try to fool you into believing that his thoughts are your thoughts, but they are not. He is just a thirsty little toad who will do or say anything to get you to do what he wants. But he is not you.

      For me, understanding that the little voice in my head that demands a drink or a smoke IS NOT ME helps a lot. I can see that the Addiction Monster has his own agenda, and he will do anything and everything he can to get me to smoke and drink, but he is not really me, and his thoughts are not my thoughts.

      That's really important: His thoughts are not my thoughts.

      Also, His wishes are not necessarily my wishes.

      So read that page on the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. I find being aware of what is happening there to be a life-saver.

   2. Then another thing that really helps is remembering the pain and the damage that was caused by alcohol and tobacco. I have a very basic gut-level revulsion to alcohol now, because parts of my body remember how sick alcohol made me, and how much it messed me up. When I am tempted to drink, remembering the pain and the damage quickly kills any desire to drink.

   3. Then there is that great slogan,
      "Just don't take that first drink, not ever, no matter what."
      I live by that one. It's totally true that if you don't take the first drink, then you can't drink too much, and you can't get into trouble with alcohol, and you can't get readdicted.

   4. And then there is thinking about the future: Thinking about all of the negative and painful things that would happen if I went back to drinking. That's good for quickly killing the desire to drink, too. At a SMART meeting, a fellow named Kevin said that his favorite slogan was,
      "Play the tape to the end."
      That is, consider the whole thing like a movie on videotape. It starts with the joy of drinking and partying, and ends with sickness, misery, shame, poverty, and death. Seeing the end that alcohol leads to also quickly kills the pleasant siren song of drink.

      And, as we were just saying in a previous letter, we can even use negative emotions to our advantage, like spite and resentment, as in, "I can't possibly relapse now and give my back-biting critics the satisfaction. No way will I let that happen." That is also playing the tape to the end.

   5. And then there is SMART. SMART helps with both the second and the fourth items. SMART teaches a "Risk/Reward Analysis", which is just a fancy way of saying that you can examine any imagined course of action and compare the benefits with the costs, and see which is greater. (Personally, I'm in the habit of calling it a Cost/Benefit Analysis, which is the name that accountants use.) I gave a few examples of such analyses in earlier letters, here and here and here.

   6. And that leads to the usual list of support groups and forums:

      Check these out:

         1. SMART: Self Management And Recovery Training.
            http://www.smartrecovery.org/
            Rational, sane, common-sense recovery techniques. Based on Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, the brainchild of Dr. Albert Ellis.
                * SMART online chat groups, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/paraentry.php, and
                * SMART message boards, http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x
                * Also see the book, When AA Doesn't Work for You, Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol by Albert Ellis, Ph.D., and Emmett Velten, Ph.D.

         2. WFS (Women For Sobriety)
            http://www.womenforsobriety.org/
            WFS also has online chat groups:
            http://www.womenforsobriety.org/news_co ... /chat.html
            For local group meetings in your area you can also call 1-800-333-1606.

         3. SOS, Secular Organizations for Sobriety, a.k.a. "Save Our Selves".
            SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual or superstitious content of widely available 12-Step programs.
                * Another web site: http://www.sos-rochester.org/ — Rochester, NY, SOS on the web.
                * Also see the book, SOS Sobriety, The Proven Alternative to 12-Step Programs by James Christopher

         4. LifeRing Secular Recovery (LSR)
            LifeRing provides live, online meetings on the Internet:
                * http://www.unhooked.com/chat/Chat.html — the Unhooked chat
                * http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LSRmail/ — a Yahoogroup, "LifeRing Secular Recovery"

         5. http://www.rational.org/ — Rational Recovery. This is not a group any more. It's a web site that teaches and sells Addictive Voice Recognition Therapy. That is essentially the same thing as learning to recognize the seductive yammering of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.

         6. http://xsteppers.multiply.com/ — X-Steppers, have moved from MSN and found a new home on Multiply.

         7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step-free — Self-described as: 'This is a large yahoo group of ex-AA and ex-"XA" (meaning any "anonymous" program based on the 12 steps originally created by AA) people. It is very open to debate and free thinking, but it's main point is for those needing to be free of the 12 steps.'

         8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/without_aa/ — Without A.A.

         9. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EFTCoaa
            Self-described as: 'This group is called Escaping From The Cult of AA. Despite only one membership "drive", it has continuously grown over a year's time.'

        10. You can also get some more links from the start of the links page.

   7. There is a list of other discussions about what works, here. Also see this letter.



Date: 23.07.2009 08:21     (answered 26 July 2009)
Sender: Ted B.
Subject: the 3 unwritten rules of AA

Hi Orange,

thanks so much for the website and the truth about this propaganda that has been sewn into the social fabric of the mainstream by AA and the recovery/treatment industry. I will write again, but this first letter is about why I quit AA.

First off, I admit that I have trouble committing to and finishing alot of things (college, the Navy, AA).... but I did do the best I could with AA. I got a sponsor, did the steps as best I could and shared at meetings... sometimes.

Before I read the Orange Papers I was not aware of how dangerous AA thinking (or not thinking) could be. The thing that really stuck out for me was the information about the Synanon games and the cult that used them, and their psychopathic leader. What is really very disturbing is that they use that very method at the main rehab center here on O'ahu. I've seen them do this while I was in there (17 days, left against 'medical advice')... and no one questioned it. Everyone seemed to believe that it had therapeutic value. I thought it was strange, bizarre mind games, and dreaded the idea of being put in the hot seat. One woman in the outpatient program I currently attend who went to that rehab for help, had her counselor tell her "you're a drug addict, you're a thief, and a liar". Then this woman (the client) said that that was good for her and what she needed to hear.

The same woman said that her sponsor grilled her for hours on her 4th step and asked her 33 questions for each person she "harmed" on her 5th step. I don't think it was necessary for her to be interrogated like a criminal suspect.

Anyway, back to me. After my last "relapse", my sponsor's sponsor (grand sponsor) suggested I do 2 things. One was to write a farewell letter to alcohol (not really a bad idea), and the other was to write down my thoughts that preceded my last binge (another good idea, he was much more intelligent than most of the people I've met in AA).

Well, I did both, but what I noticed about the 2nd exercise was that my first thoughts surrounding my last binge were that I was sick and tired of going to and sitting through AA meetings. Of course any AAer would say "there's the problem, you gave up on the program". I suppose that if a person busies themselves with meetings and service work and sponsoring, that could keep them sober, but I would think that they would have to buy into the whole philosophy of the program to stay motivated and I don't see how anyone can.

When we were children did we not learn about right and wrong, good and evil, and religion? The 5th step seems Catholic in nature, and for most non-Catholics (at least me anyway) seems bizarre and unnecessary. But I did it, as I was supposed to, and desperately wanted to lose the obsession, or desire, for alcohol. Everyone seemed to think AA had (or was) the answer.

The steps seem to be geared toward the morally inept, and spiritually bankrupt (by the way my former sponsor and his sponsor were both atheists that used AA itself as their higher power) and egotists. This is not a good way to view yourself if part of the reason for your heavy drinking was low self-esteem (as it was for me).

Not knowing the cult origins of AA, and not feeling good about myself anyway, however, the steps seemed relatively harmless and had this great reputation as a spiritual, moral support group program. That's what everyone seems to think. I was not willing however to go into AA's 3 unwritten steps which sound more like membership rules if you go to enough meetings. Aside from speakers who go up and praise the program while at the same time talking about how screwed up they are even though they're sober, or the ones who just can't shut up about how great they are now that they're in AA, you hear over and over and over again...

1. Get a sponsor, stay in touch with them, and if they become unavailable (or God forbid get a life), fire them and get a new one. Later, you must sponsor a newcomer (the only way to keep it is to give it away).

2. Get into service and commit to your obligation at your Home Group (if your job and your family couldn't keep you sober, this will surely do the trick).

3. Share at meetings (talk about your personal life in front of a group of strangers), go up and tell your life story (not the whole thing, just the part about your alcohol/drug abuse and how AA saved your life)... and sing the praises of this wonderful 'fellowship'.

The only thing I can say in favor of AA is that if you get too lonely and need to be around people who aren't drinking/using they're available, but other than that... that's it! Don't wait for a miracle that is not going to happen.

That's my story (part of it anyway).. Thanks again Orange, and keep up the great work.

Ted



Hi Ted,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments.

The first thing that caught my eye was the mention of Synanon games. Synanon — the insane brainchild of Chuck Dederich — is the root of all of the "confrontational therapy" and "attack therapy" techniques and organizations, and it is still quite popular, as you noticed at your local "treatment center", in spite of the fact that it does not work and produces bad results. Heck, Chuck Dederich and his commune degenerated into a bunch of crazies, and Dederich's lieutenants went to prison for attempted murder of critics and defectors, and Dederich avoided prison only by copping a plea and giving up leadership of Synanon. So much for the wonderful mental health produced by Synanon Games and confrontational therapy.

Nevertheless, Synanon was the model for a whole crop of child and grandchild programs: The Seed, Straight, Inc., Kids of New Jersey, Delancy Street, Drug Free America Foundation, Daytop, Phoenix House, Amity, and more.

Right off the top of my head, I know that half of them, The Seed, Straight, Kids of New Jersey, and Drug Free America Foundation were guilty of vicious child abuse. That's why they don't exist any more. They were shut down amid criminal investigations and lawsuits. But other descendants have taken their places.

The professions of psychology and psychiatry must be in very sick shape if shams and quackery like Synanon Games and "confrontational therapy" that are the best that they can recommend for drug and alcohol problems.

I also agree with the rest of your letter. "The Three Other Steps" are true. Funny how cults' programs seem to always have some more duties that aren't written down, or mentioned beforehand. That's Progressive Commitments, another standard cult characteristic.

The third one, "Share at Meetings", reminds me of the Self-Sell propaganda technique. You are urged to speak, and an unspoken assumption is that you will say things that are acceptable to the group. You'd better, if you want their approving smiles rather than hard frowns... So you scrounge through your mind trying to find something positive to say about A.A. and the program and the great progress you are making... The idea is, that you will start to believe that stuff. You will sell yourself on the idea.

Make them say it enough times, and they will start to believe it. That's Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.

A wacky cult called "Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism" that I was briefly trying out in the seventies used the same technique. At Sunday morning meetings, newcomers were urged to get up in front of the whole congregation and declare what wonderful things have come to them, and which of their wishes were granted, by chanting "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" at a printed scroll. Absurd as it may sound, say it enough times, and you will start to believe it. They did.

Oh, and I can think of one other "unwritten rule" of A.A.: "You can't criticize The Program."

Have a good day.

== Orange





Date: 24.07.2009 14:02     (answered 31 July 2009)
Sender: Sherp
Subject: A debating technique question

Hi Orange,

I wat to know if you ever encountered this tactic of debating/arguing? I've read a good deal of the debating techniques page, but not all of it so if it's on there and I didn't read it yet I apologize in advance.

Demand proof of your opponent's position while at the same time delegitmizing your opponent's point or the way you answer it before your opponent makes it.

It works something like this:

    Give me ONE valid study that shows the ineffectivness of AA ! — And DON'T tell me of the Vaillant Harvard study! It's over 20 years old! He's more or less disowned it and since then the bulk of scientific data we have now clearly refutes it!

Obviously you have to know of the arugment that's coming so you would have to have encounter it before. You also have to lie (I believe Lie with qualifiers may be the correct term.)

I also see people do it in messageboards. When people respond to a usually particulaly long comment They'll try to refute each point by quoting every comment in order (the same way you answer some emails.) The person wanting a response will belittle this technique and the person doing it beforehand.

    Are you gonna quote everything I wrote in order and respond to it? That's so lame and annoying! Why don't you just answer what I wrote without trying to make it look like your a some type of scholar or something???

Or at other times, they do the "I'm fed up" bit.

    Don't Give me the "Blah Blah Blah" argument. I'm tired of hearing it!

Once again, apologies if it's up on your site already. : )

Sherp

Hi Sherp,

Thanks for the letter. And no, it isn't already on the site. I'll have to add that technique — actually, those techniques.

You touched on more than one technique — three, I think.

   1. Not only is there Rejecting The Answer In Advance like you described — "And DON'T tell me of the Vaillant Harvard study!" — and
   2. Delegitimizing the Rebuttal in Advance, like you also described — "Are you gonna quote everything I wrote in order and respond to it?" —
   3. but there is also Spurious Delegitimization Of Undesired Evidence.

      It does not matter whether Dr. Vaillant "has disowned" the results of his research project at Cambridge Hospital that he described at length in his first book — the results of valid tests are still the results of valid tests. It's like, if I "disown" my previous statement that I'm a 62-year-old American male, does that suddenly change me into a dashing young 20-something guy? (Wouldn't that be a great way to get eternal youth?)

      And I have not heard of Dr. Vaillant ever conducting another controlled study of Alcoholics Anonymous treatment that came up with a different result. Being a true believer in Steppism, Dr. Vaillant is just unhappy with the real facts that he unintentionally revealed — that A.A. did not work to make alcoholics quit drinking, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.

      I can understand how Dr. Vaillant is unhappy with that answer, and wants to "disown" the results, but that doesn't change the facts. But it's a great propaganda trick to say, "Dr. Vaillant has since disowned that study."

      And the statement that "...since then the bulk of scientific data we have now clearly refutes it!", isn't "lying with qualifiers." It is just plain old lying. There is no "bulk of scientific data" that says any such thing. The bulk of the scientific data says that A.A. does not work. All of the valid controlled tests found A.A. to be a failure, so when a Stepper argues that a bunch of "studies" showed that A.A. works great, he is merely referring to some phony propaganda articles that are based on no actual proper tests. Look here and here and here and here for four collections of such propaganda.

Have a good day now, and thanks again for some additions to the Propaganda and Debating Techniques web page.

== Orange



And they really have elevated Bill Wilson almost to the level of a deity....

[Dr. Acula]

:twofinger:

[Octomommy]

Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss.  :seg:

 :soapbox:

 :on phone:

MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:

NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:rnwg4m3k]067h.jpg[/attachment:rnwg4m3k]

OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil::  ::puke::  ::OMG::

WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin:  :blabla:

[Anti-Troll]

::fullofshit::

[Botched Programming]

Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss.  :seg:

 :soapbox:

 :on phone:

MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:

NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:26pkjr87]067h.jpg[/attachment:26pkjr87]

OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil::  ::puke::  ::OMG::

WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin:  :blabla:

I am really sorry that your daugter is in jail with such a little bond.... if this is through a bondsman he will work with you till it is paid off before court... And I am so sorry for you mentality disorder even though it is no fault of ours.


Peace and much healing
 :peace:

[Eliscu2]

:whip:

[Eliscu2]

::OMG::

[Eliscu2]

:seg:

[Anne Bonney]

I WANT A CARTOON CROTCH LIKE OURS THEN I CAN NOT GET FUCKED OVER And mutilated while everyone around me laughs

http://www.google.com/images?q=sexy%20p ... 24&bih=549

[Eliscu2]

:eek:

[Botched Programming]

Treatment centers and Anonymous programs call it a disease... Insurance companies pay benefits so people can learn the dogmatic 12 steps. Please discuss.  :seg:

 :soapbox:

 :on phone:

MY DAUGHTER IS STILL IN THE IOWA COUNTY (wisconsin) JAIL CAN ANYBODY PAY HER BAIL AND GIVE HER A RIDE HOME? $100.00 :beat:

NO I HAVE NO FRIENDS!!! (WITH MONEY) :deal:
[attachment=0:1mpa11zj]067h.jpg[/attachment:1mpa11zj]

OOOPS I HAVE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS DISORDER____________________DSM5 ::evil::  ::puke::  ::OMG::

WELL I FOR ONE RULE THE WHOLE WORLD ME AND MY DRAMA BOX!!!
I AM A LYING CUNT OF THE WORLD~~~~~~~~~~
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BECAUSE I AM AN IDIOT WHO LISTENS TO PROPIGANDA. :jamin:  :blabla:

I am really sorry that your daugter is in jail with such a little bond.... if this is through a bondsman he will work with you till it is paid off before court... And I am so sorry for you mentality disorder even though it is no fault of ours.


Peace and much healing
 :peace:

PEACE ON EARTH? WHERE?
(I do enjoy your avatars :eek: )
I LIKE HORROR MOVIES AND WEED.
"CRIME OF THE CENTURY"_______________CLAIRE  :on phone: WOODMAN

It's a question of judge me or my peers... I have always treated you with much respect Eliscu and valued your opinion, however at this point in time ' we do not see the same views.. that is what makes us individuals. I respect your thoughts and I know you will mine...

Peace and much healing
Botched
 :peace:

[Samara]

I have a hard time with the disease model, too.   "My disease made me do it." I just don't buy it.  It's just another get out of jail for free card, like some people use Jesus.

[DannyB II]

Guess what people neither did Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob Smith, Ebby and 85% of AA. So thanks for pointing this out but what you need to remember this came from your Treatment Centers. Basically it is people like yourselves here, your Programs and the Employees that brought this Concept of "this is a Disease" to the Forefront.  
Folks we can't help y'all here, go to your TC's and bitch at them for taking AA's 12 step principles and corrupting them, which then produced, "YOU".