Making Amends

[DannyB II]

If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it,

Yes, it's from the Orange Papers so no doubt you'll dismiss it but notice the sources he cites.  And why you're even in this discussion when you've admitted that you have no knowledge of and haven't read the BB, I don't know why you feel compelled to argue the point.  As I said before, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about.

Well it is his opinions and I could find letters and articles to supports all of my opinions about everything I think of, if that is what I want to do. My problem is none of these articles you posted here have really anything to do with AA, directly.

Just a few.....
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995,
American Health Magazine
Dr. Sheldon Zimberg




http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ard_Mental

The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:

    On their own
    There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
    Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
    (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.

OK, Harvard Medical wrote a letter, did they write it to AA, was it a rebuttal for a opinion concerning the viability of AA, was it in response to a letter AA wrote about itself or wrote to Harvard Medical. Maybe it was just a letter Harvard wrote concerning Alcoholism. Great we need this information out there, no one will argue this Anne.
I can not even understand why your arguing about a organization that you really know nothing about or what it is trying to accomplish.
Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:

    ...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
    J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.

And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."

    "I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway."
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition — Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293.

And a rehash of the Big Book that is targeted at youths tells this story of an allegedly-successful recovery:

    Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first (Me: but it's not religious, really) and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life.
    Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.

This is all well and good but both of those citations you reference have no direct association with AA. They are just letters and articles. Anne, there are literally millions of letters and articles out there on alcoholism and addictions.



In his book on the treatment of alcoholism, Dr. Sheldon Zimberg surveyed the literature for reports of spontaneous remission of alcoholism:

    Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism

          A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
          In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.

   10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
    11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
    203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
    235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
    236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
    238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
    268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
    269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
    The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.

The key sentence is the last one — for a treatment program to claim success, it would have to produce recovery rates greater than the usual rate of spontaneous remission. Alcoholics Anonymous comes nowhere near exceeding a 4 to 18 percent per year recovery rate.

Personally, I find the 18 percent number to be far too high to believe. (At that rate, 85% of all of the alcoholics in the country should have recovered in just the last 10 years. Obviously, that has not happened.) I agree with R. G. Smart, who calculated a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year. As a simple rule of thumb, the middle value of 5 or 5.5 percent per year is quite believable. Still, the claimed success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous does not even exceed that much lower rate of spontaneous remission.

This is all well and good also but this has nothing to do with the purpose of AA or what AA is trying to do. Anne, we are not a program, marketing a product, saying we are going to get everyone sober.

[DannyB II]

If you have evidence that AA is hurting people I am open to reading it,

Yes, it's from the Orange Papers so no doubt you'll dismiss it but notice the sources he cites.  And why you're even in this discussion when you've admitted that you have no knowledge of and haven't read the BB, I don't know why you feel compelled to argue the point.  As I said before, maybe you should refrain from commenting until you know what you're talking about.

Well it is his opinions and I could find letters and articles to supports all of my opinions about everything I think of, if that is what I want to do. My problem is none of these articles you posted here have really anything to do with AA, directly.

Just a few.....
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995,
American Health Magazine
Dr. Sheldon Zimberg




http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ard_Mental

The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:

    On their own
    There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
    Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
    (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

So much for the sayings that "Everybody needs a support group" and "Nobody can do it alone". Most successful people do.

OK, Harvard Medical wrote a letter, did they write it to AA, was it a rebuttal for a opinion concerning the viability of AA, was it in response to a letter AA wrote about itself or wrote to Harvard Medical. Maybe it was just a letter Harvard wrote concerning Alcoholism. Great we need this information out there, no one will argue this Anne.
I can not even understand why your arguing about a organization that you really know nothing about or what it is trying to accomplish.
Likewise, American Health Magazine reported:

    ...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
    J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.

And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-Step group. But A.A. says just the opposite: "Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."

    "I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway."
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition — Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293.

And a rehash of the Big Book that is targeted at youths tells this story of an allegedly-successful recovery:

    Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first (Me: but it's not religious, really) and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life.
    Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.

This is all well and good but both of those citations you reference have no direct association with AA. They are just letters and articles. Anne, there are literally millions of letters and articles out there on alcoholism and addictions.



In his book on the treatment of alcoholism, Dr. Sheldon Zimberg surveyed the literature for reports of spontaneous remission of alcoholism:

    Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism

          A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
          In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.

   10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
    11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
    203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
    235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
    236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
    238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
    268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
    269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
    The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.

The key sentence is the last one — for a treatment program to claim success, it would have to produce recovery rates greater than the usual rate of spontaneous remission. Alcoholics Anonymous comes nowhere near exceeding a 4 to 18 percent per year recovery rate.

Personally, I find the 18 percent number to be far too high to believe. (At that rate, 85% of all of the alcoholics in the country should have recovered in just the last 10 years. Obviously, that has not happened.) I agree with R. G. Smart, who calculated a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year. As a simple rule of thumb, the middle value of 5 or 5.5 percent per year is quite believable. Still, the claimed success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous does not even exceed that much lower rate of spontaneous remission.

This is all well and good also but this has nothing to do with the purpose of AA or what AA is trying to do. Anne, we are not a program, marketing a product, saying we are going to get everyone sober.