Author Topic: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?  (Read 12765 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2010, 10:07:40 AM »
I spent the weekend with someone who's been going to meetings for a year.  They have a sponsor who, 2 weeks ago, told them that they didn't need their anti-depressants.  Told them to stop taking them - cold turkey.  Told them that if they prayed hard enough, God would remove the need for them.  ::) ::) ::) ::) The kid was trying to "do the right thing" and, unfortunately, followed their sponsor's advice.  As any thinking person would expect, the poor kid ended up in a severe depression and called me because they were thinking about using.  Thankfully, they're back on the medication but it will take a couple of weeks for it to take effect again.  Who the fuck do Stepcrafters think they are that they can practice medicine without a license??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2010, 11:51:19 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
I've looked over the orange papers website before, it's interesting. I disagree, I think AA, at least for me was a very positive experience and I enjoyed it and the people a lot.


I've always said that I don't have a problem with like-minded people getting together to support each other in a common goal.  What I do have a problem with is all the dogma.  In the 12 & 12, they're told that if they don't follow AA's path that they're "surely signing their own death warrant", among other absurdities.  Not to mention that's it IS religious no matter how much they deny it.  They lull the newcomer in with the "god of your choice" bullshit.  We've all heard the 'doorknob' crap and it's just that...crap.  Once they feel the newcomer is sufficiently indoctrinated, they push the religious aspect more and more until the person finally gives in or gives up.

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I am sincerely interested though, why do you think AA is so bad? Is it because the abusive program you were in used AA, or did you have other experiences with AA that made you feel this way? Obviously something must have happened, if you are motivated enough to pass out flyers on your own time.

Well, if you look at the study that AA's own George Valliant did regarding the efficacy of AA you'll see that not only did AA not help, it hurt.  AA's "success" rate (again, according to Valliant) was a mere 5% - the exact same as spontaneous remission (a/k/a doing nothing).  The death rate among those that attended AA was much higher than those that did nothing.  


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What makes me curious most of all, is what happened that was so bad at AA that would give someone this kind of motivation? Thanks

Things like what happened to the person I was talking about in my earlier post.  I've personally seen that particular evil perpetrated on more than a few unsuspecting souls.  Their sponsors tell them to go off their meds, they get depressed and end up using.  I don't know what makes the Stepcrafters think that they can practice medicine without a license.  They're driving these poor people into relapse.  I've also seen countless divorces because a sponsor or group tells the AAer that their spouse "is dangerous to their sobriety" for simply questioning some of AA's methods.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2010, 11:59:09 AM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"

Thanks for answering me. Do you feel that programs version of AA is what is going on in church AA meetings, though? I've never seen anyone forced to break down and submit in an AA meeting.

All the time!  Although it's a much more subtle version of the breakdown.  AA could never get away with what programs do, but the peer pressure and fearmongering aspects are still there in spades.


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It seemed like it was just people sharing their stories, and trying to support one another. Do you think AA works for anybody?

No, not really.  I think it can be useful as strictly a support group, but leave out the big book, 12 & 12 and the rest of the dogma.


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I've known people who credit AA with saving their life, that's why I ask.

I've known people that swear that crystals saved their lives.  Does that make it so?


 
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Do you ever feel like you might be sabotaging somebody's recovery by giving them an excuse to go back to drinking? Like, they might say "oh AA is a cult, I knew it! Guess I'll go get drunk!"


Do you ever feel like you're setting up a self fulfilling prophecy for these people?  The "if you walk out those doors, you'll DIE" mentality is a dangerous setup.

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Do you believe some people have problems with alcohol that they need help, and might not be able to afford a nice rehab center?

Yes, doesn't excuse the dogma.

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I'm asking these in good faith, I'm not looking to turn this into a political battle about AA. I am just curious as how you perceive it, and the people that attend AA meetings. I guess because it's adults who choose to go, and choose to believe in something that works for them, I don't see what the harm is. It's kind of like religion, it seems to help a lot of people, even if it's been bastardized in the past, like you said the 12 steps were, to do harm to some people. I'm wondering, a lot of people believe in God, and religion and the afterlife. What if you were a scientist, and you happened to discover the proof that there is, in fact, no immortal souls, we completely cease to exist at death. Would you offer this proof up, and ruin many people's beliefs that seem to comfort them, or would you keep this information to yourself?

When asked, I absolutely tell people that I believe that when you die you die.  That's it, there is no more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2010, 12:08:45 PM »
Break it down Anne !!!!!!!


 :rocker:

Peace and much healing
 :peace:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2010, 12:22:24 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Break it down Anne !!!!!!!


 :rocker:

Peace and much healing
 :peace:

 :seg2:  :nods:   Right back atya!!!

 :rasta:   Thank FSM for Agent Orange!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2010, 12:42:31 PM »
I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary.  If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else.  We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.

The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion.  Its not based on fact.  I could say the world is going to end tomorrow and you couldnt disprove it  (until tomorrow lol)... so a man writes a paper based on personal opinions and you believe him.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But we cant put it out there as fact.  Orange Papers could be considered a religion also in itself because it is one person with many followers believing his every word.

Just one example:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

He never cites a study and then goes on for pages basing his personal hypothesis and statistics on these numbers which were pulled from the air.

Link to source



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2010, 12:56:01 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion.  Its not based on fact.  ...


What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.

Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL


Peace and much healing
 :peace:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 01:00:05 PM by Botched Programming »

Offline shaggys

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2010, 12:58:57 PM »
Well I appreciate the efforts of Botched to expose the AA cult for what it is. Yo Botched, dont even bother with DannyB unless you just feel like letting off some steam because he has less than zero cred here anyway. He has admitted on numerous occasions that he suffers from severe mental disorders and in fact has bragged about them. It was funny to see him calling you "psycho". Everyone here knows that Danny is incredibly unstable and never to be taken seriously. Thanks for your posts Botched.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2010, 01:02:31 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Quote from: "Whooter"

The Orange papers may be true or they may be false, but its just one mans opinion.  Its not based on fact.  ...


What in the hell do you think that the AA Big Book or the NA Basic Test is... AA was written by Bill Wilson and the NA basic text was written by Jimmy K... So here we have it 2 guys writing his own opinion.

Peace and much healing
 :peace:


And at least AO cites his sources for his opinions (even though Whooter dismisses them) and uses critical thought to come to his conclusions.  AA/Bill Wilson rely on his Bella Donna and withdrawal induced rantings.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2010, 01:05:41 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary.  If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else.  We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.


Because it gets dangerous with the Stepcrafters doing what they did to this kid I'm talking about.  And it's not like it's an uncommon practice for the Stepcrafters to tell people to stop taking their meds, or divorce the spouse who dares question AA, or setup a self fulfilling prophecy of death if they leave "the rooms".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2010, 01:08:34 PM »
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL


Peace and much healing
 :peace:


Ayup....Whooter's upset because nobody will play with him in the sandbox, er thread, he started.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2010, 01:13:33 PM »
I flipped over to Fark and, lo and behold, look what I found!!!



:nods:  :nods:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rocker:  :rocker:   :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201433200

Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers, Study Finds
Time.com

By JOHN CLOUD John Cloud – Mon Aug 30, 6:50 am ET

One of the most contentious issues in the vast literature about alcohol consumption has been the consistent finding that those who don't drink actually tend to die sooner than those who do. The standard Alcoholics Anonymous explanation for this finding is that many of those who show up as abstainers in such research are actually former hard-core drunks who had already incurred health problems associated with drinking.

But a new paper in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research suggests that - for reasons that aren't entirely clear - abstaining from alcohol does actually tend to increase one's risk of dying even when you exclude former drinkers. The most shocking part? Abstainers' mortality rates are higher than those of heavy drinkers. (See pictures of booze under a microscope.)

Moderate drinking, which is defined as one to three drinks per day, is associated with the lowest mortality rates in alcohol studies. Moderate alcohol use (especially when the beverage of choice is red wine) is thought to improve heart health, circulation and sociability, which can be important because people who are isolated don't have as many family members and friends who can notice and help treat health problems.

But why would abstaining from alcohol lead to a shorter life? It's true that those who abstain from alcohol tend to be from lower socioeconomic classes, since drinking can be expensive. And people of lower socioeconomic status have more life stressors - job and child-care worries that might not only keep them from the bottle but also cause stress-related illnesses over long periods. (They also don't get the stress-reducing benefits of a drink or two after work.)

But even after controlling for nearly all imaginable variables - socioeconomic status, level of physical activity, number of close friends, quality of social support and so on - the researchers (a six-member team led by psychologist Charles Holahan of the University of Texas at Austin) found that over a 20-year period, mortality rates were highest for those who had never been drinkers, second-highest for heavy drinkers and lowest for moderate drinkers. (Watch TIME's Video "Taste Test: Beer With Extra Buzz.")

The sample of those who were studied included individuals between ages 55 and 65 who had had any kind of outpatient care in the previous three years. The 1,824 participants were followed for 20 years. One drawback of the sample: a disproportionate number, 63%, were men. Just over 69% of the never-drinkers died during the 20 years, 60% of the heavy drinkers died and only 41% of moderate drinkers died.

These are remarkable statistics. Even though heavy drinking is associated with higher risk for cirrhosis and several types of cancer (particularly cancers in the mouth and esophagus), heavy drinkers are less likely to die than people who have never drunk. One important reason is that alcohol lubricates so many social interactions, and social interactions are vital for maintaining mental and physical health. As I pointed out last year, nondrinkers show greater signs of depression than those who allow themselves to join the party.

The authors of the new paper are careful to note that even if drinking is associated with longer life, it can be dangerous: it can impair your memory severely and it can lead to nonlethal falls and other mishaps (like, say, cheating on your spouse in a drunken haze) that can screw up your life. There's also the dependency issue: if you become addicted to alcohol, you may spend a long time trying to get off the bottle. (Comment on this story.)

That said, the new study provides the strongest evidence yet that moderate drinking is not only fun but good for you. So make mine a double.

See the top 10 long-forgotten liquors.

Read "Why Nondrinkers May Be More Depressed."


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31027#p376365
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2010, 01:14:51 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Botched Programming"
Man go back and troll your own thread... we are having an intelligent conversation with Max, we might have a chance to save him.... LOL


Peace and much healing
 :peace:


Ayup....Whooter's upset because nobody will play with him in the sandbox, er thread, he started.


No, I started that so that any trolling, trolling discussions can be kept there and personal attacks can be kept out of threads like these.  But, Anne, you are still hell bent on derailing this thread.  Lets keep on the topic of AA.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
I really didnt get why people could be against something that is voluntary.  If it works for you then fine if it doesnt then you should try something else.  We should not ridicule the guy who goes to AA or ridicule the guy who decides to take a different path.


Because it gets dangerous with the Stepcrafters doing what they did to this kid I'm talking about.  And it's not like it's an uncommon practice for the Stepcrafters to tell people to stop taking their meds, or divorce the spouse who dares question AA, or setup a self fulfilling prophecy of death if they leave "the rooms".


If AA supports this then I would agree with you.  I am not familiar with the writing of the Big Book.  This may be just one guy pushing his personal agenda.



...
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Offline shaggys

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Re: Putting flyers on cars outside AA meetings?
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2010, 01:18:26 PM »
Right you are Anne. AA tells its members that they will surely die without their precious sobriety and the path to sobriety is exclusively owned by AA. I have told the story before about how my half-brother wrecked his marriage to a great woman with his AA bullshit. She could take the drinking but not his fanatical devotion to AA. When given an ultimatum: AA or your family. He chose AA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »