Suicide

[reformed12stepper]

t rex wanted some kind of evidence that the suicide rate had fallen as a result of initiatives that do not result in  sending people away from the community. These statistics show a marked drop in the suicide rate in the year that the campaign started then an overall trend of continued decreases in the suicide rate.
I am not making a comment on the website as a whole. But i assume you have been following this thread. If so you will see that some people have argued that institutionalisation made their issues worse and their desire to end it greater. Others have suggested that such a practice is necessary to save lives. I am not disputing what they personally experienced but i am suggesting that it may not be necessary because where I live this has been an issue and the issue is continually being sucessfully addressed without the need for such drastic measures. Hope this clear it up.

The percentage of kids that attend a program is very low here in the us and typically the kids are struggling with behavior issues not suicide specific issues.  So I dont see how the trends could reflect the success or failure of residential treatment based on national statistics.

In our public school system alone we are seeing between 1,300 and 1,700 children taking their own lives on school property (or traveling to and from school) each year.  We rarely see a child take their own life while attending Therapeutic Boarding schools and data suggests that suicide rates decline after returning home.

But when looking at a 10.5 per 100,000 suicide rate for Australia  and 11.1 for the united States it is difficult to determine contributing factors in their increase or decrease year to year.  If you step back and compare our two countries against the rest of the world we are virtually at the same rate.

I understand that there appears to be a correlation with the onset of a program (which was introduced in Australia) and the decline in suicide rates, but it is difficult to attribute this decline to any one event unless a study is done to confirm it in my opinion.



...

I apologise for the double post. I only read this response after I had finished.-wouldnt any suicide at in in a school which is supposed to supervise kids 24/7 be pretty negligent? Isnt this the whole point of sending a kid with any issue? to get the supervision that a parent cant really provide all the time?
I appreciate that kids get sent away for a variety of reasons but this thread was on suicide. One thing that was key to the stats i put up was not to suggest by any means that things are perfect here, but to show the quite sharp drop in the first few years after the problem began being seriously addressed in ways that did not involve removing kids from their community.

[Whooter]

I apologise for the double post. I only read this response after I had finished.-wouldnt any suicide at in in a school which is supposed to supervise kids 24/7 be pretty negligent? Isnt this the whole point of sending a kid with any issue? to get the supervision that a parent cant really provide all the time?

No, I wouldn’t call it negligent.  If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them.  The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.

I appreciate that kids get sent away for a variety of reasons but this thread was on suicide. One thing that was key to the stats i put up was not to suggest by any means that things are perfect here, but to show the quite sharp drop in the first few years after the problem began being seriously addressed in ways that did not involve removing kids from their community.

I did note that you pointed this drop in suicides but this tells us that the community programs were effective in reducing the suicide rate but was not 100% effective.  I am not suggesting that programs are effective for all kids struggling with issues.  The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.

I am sure there are children in your country who have not responded well to the local services and could use a different approach.  If residential treatment were successful for these children it may reduce your suicide rate even further.



...

[Ursus]

Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.

What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.

I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.

Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:

Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.

Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.

Well... at the very least, ya have to admit that the program did not help them and may have even exacerbated their "problems." And yes, in some cases, specific abuses inflicted by the program or experienced while at program have been enough to cause suicidal ideation.

Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.

Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...

[reformed12stepper]

nothing in the world is 100% effective.

[Ursus]

The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.

Citation please? This strikes me as one of those very odd "Whooter facts."

The majority of kids in program with me had NOT been involved in community based services. In fact, it would appear that some parents send kids to programs precisely to avoid community based services.

[Whooter]

The majority of the children in programs have been in community based services and the parents/professionals have found them to not be successful for them so this small percentage of children are recommended to get help outside the community.

Citation please? This strikes me as one of those very odd "Whooter facts."

The majority of kids in program with me had NOT been involved in community based services. In fact, it would appear that some parents send kids to programs precisely to avoid community based services.

It seems the more we learn about each others experiences and programs the more they vary.  Everyone of the kids in my daughters peer group and everyone she talked about and those parents I spoke to had been in treatment locally prior to being sent to the boarding school.  I am curious as to why Hyde would have such a disproportionate number of kids who were never involved locally.  It seems to be such a natural thing to try to resolve your child’s problem in the least restrictive manner before pursuing a placement outside the home.

Why send them away as a first option?  It doesn’t make sense.



...

[SUCK IT]

The long term private program I finally ended up at was the last option. For several years actually my parents tried all the local options, and I would just manipulate my way out of them. I would just sit there and laugh at therapists, and say nothing. When I was put in a hospital I just lied  and promised to be sober and said I'm fine and they let me out. When I would get arrested I would say it will never happen again. When they decided to put me in community based residential treatment I ran away and got high and they kicked me out. I would be put in hospital again for being suicidal, but they would always let me out in a matter of days or weeks. The community options aren't designed to be long term, and didn't work for someone like me who is willing to do anything to stay the way they are. I was a suicidal drug addict, who regularly committed crimes and had no regard to authority, of my family or the law.

My family really couldn't afford long term treatment, they had insurance to pay for everything prior from their work, but out of pocket was difficult. But they had no other choice and sold things, and cut back on expenses. My own actions cost my family a lot of money, and took away from things my siblings would have got. My own selfishness caused great suffering and setbacks for my entire family. Back then though, I felt like I was the victim. I was very self centered and arrogant, and really didn't care about anybody else but myself. I wanted what I wanted, and I would do anything, say anything, and go anywhere to do it. I actually had so many issues and such a long and sordid history that the private program was reluctant to take me at first, but my family begged and pleaded and told them it was the only option left. Had I been left to my own devices back then, I would of surely ended up in jail, or dead.

The program knew I was suicidal and put me on suicide watch and, literally would watch me 24 hrs a day, and it worked. I even tried once and was forcefully stopped, I was held down and kept from doing it and then talked down from the emotional state I was in. This is something that cannot be provided in a community option, or by parents themselves. It might seem extreme, and it was to me at the time, it seemed excessive. But to look back at my behavior in an honest way now makes me ashamed, and also understanding of all the actions the people surrounding me were forced to take. When you are a minor, people aren't going to sit around and let you destroy yourself. Your parents are ultimately responsible, and when I'd get in trouble with the law they were constantly reminded of that. I created so many problems for my family, it makes me sad to think about it. I hope in the long run they can forgive me for how I was, but I don't expect it really. It took me some time to learn to take personal accountability for everything I did, and not look at myself as a victim of my family, or treatment programs, or the law. It was me, it was all me, and people were just trying to intervene before it was too late. The program saved my life, by saving me from myself. It's pathetic to admit something like that, but its 100% accurate.

[photo man]

The long term private program I finally ended up at was the last option. For several years actually my parents tried all the local options, and I would just manipulate my way out of them. I would just sit there and laugh at therapists, and say nothing. When I was put in a hospital I just lied  and promised to be sober and said I'm fine and they let me out. When I would get arrested I would say it will never happen again. When they decided to put me in community based residential treatment I ran away and got high and they kicked me out. I would be put in hospital again for being suicidal, but they would always let me out in a matter of days or weeks. The community options aren't designed to be long term, and didn't work for someone like me who is willing to do anything to stay the way they are. I was a suicidal drug addict, who regularly committed crimes and had no regard to authority, of my family or the law.

My family really couldn't afford long term treatment, they had insurance to pay for everything prior from their work, but out of pocket was difficult. But they had no other choice and sold things, and cut back on expenses. My own actions cost my family a lot of money, and took away from things my siblings would have got. My own selfishness caused great suffering and setbacks for my entire family. Back then though, I felt like I was the victim. I was very self centered and arrogant, and really didn't care about anybody else but myself. I wanted what I wanted, and I would do anything, say anything, and go anywhere to do it. I actually had so many issues and such a long and sordid history that the private program was reluctant to take me at first, but my family begged and pleaded and told them it was the only option left. Had I been left to my own devices back then, I would of surely ended up in jail, or dead.

The program knew I was suicidal and put me on suicide watch and, literally would watch me 24 hrs a day, and it worked. I even tried once and was forcefully stopped, I was held down and kept from doing it and then talked down from the emotional state I was in. This is something that cannot be provided in a community option, or by parents themselves. It might seem extreme, and it was to me at the time, it seemed excessive. But to look back at my behavior in an honest way now makes me ashamed, and also understanding of all the actions the people surrounding me were forced to take. When you are a minor, people aren't going to sit around and let you destroy yourself. Your parents are ultimately responsible, and when I'd get in trouble with the law they were constantly reminded of that. I created so many problems for my family, it makes me sad to think about it. I hope in the long run they can forgive me for how I was, but I don't expect it really. It took me some time to learn to take personal accountability for everything I did, and not look at myself as a victim of my family, or treatment programs, or the law. It was me, it was all me, and people were just trying to intervene before it was too late. The program saved my life, by saving me from myself. It's pathetic to admit something like that, but its 100% accurate.

- You are full of shit -  :rocker:   :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:

[Whooter]

....................Total student,                  
   .............staff, and nonstudent   .................   Homicides of youth ages 5–18   ....................Suicides of youth ages 5–18   
   .............school-associated..............................   Homicides.......Total   .................................Suicides..........Total
Year   .............violent deaths1      .........................at school2.....homicides3...........................at school2........suicides4
                     
1992–93   ...........57..............................................34.............2,689....................................6................1,680
1993–94   ..........48...............................................29.............2,879....................................7................1,723
1994–95   ...........48..............................................28.............2,654....................................7................1,767
1995–96   ..........53...............................................32.............2,512....................................6................1,725
1996–97   ..........48...............................................28.............2,189....................................1................1,633
1997–98   ..........57...............................................34.............2,056....................................6................1,626
1998–99   ..........47...............................................33.............1,762....................................4................1,597
1999–2000 .......36...............................................13.............1,537....................................8................1,415
2000–01   ..........30...............................................11.............1,466....................................4.................1,493
2001–02   ..........40...............................................16.............1,468....................................6.................1,400
2002–03   ..........35...............................................18.............1,515....................................9.................1,331
2003–04   ..........35...............................................19.............1,437....................................3.................1,285
2004–05   ..........48...............................................21...............—.......................................7...................—
— Not available.                     
1 School-associated violent deaths include a homicide, suicide, legal intervention (involving a law enforcement officer), or unintentional firearm-related death in which the fatal injury                      
occurred on the campus of a functioning elementary or secondary school in the United States, while the victim was on the way to or from regular sessions at school or while the victim was                      
attending or traveling to or from an official school-sponsored event. Victims include students, staff members, and others who are not students, from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2005.                     
2 Youth ages 5–18 from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2005.                     
3 Youth ages 5–18 from July 1, 1992, through June 30, 2004.                     
4 Youth ages 5–18 in the calendar year from 1992 to 2003.                     
5 Data are preliminary and subject to change.                     
NOTE: “At school” includes on school property, on the way to or from regular sessions at school, and while attending or traveling to or from a school-sponsored event.                      
SOURCE: Data on homicides and suicides of youth ages 5–18 at school and total school-associated violent deaths are from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),                      
1992–2005 School-Associated Violent Deaths Surveillance Study (SAVD), partially funded by the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools, previously                      
unpublished tabulation (May 2006); data on total suicides of youth ages 5–18 are from the CDC, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and                      
Reporting System Fatal (WISQARS™ Fatal) 1999–2003, retrieved July 2006 from http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars; and data on total homicides of youth ages 5–18 for the 1992–93 through                      
2003–04 school years are from the Supplementary Homicide Reports (SHR) collected by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and tabulated by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, preliminary                      
data (July 2006).

2001 - 2005  still incomplete



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[reformed12stepper]

Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.

Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...

Actually it is funny you talk about ordinary adolescents. A lot of kids when the anti suicide campaign here began did not even go in for traditional therapy in the american context. this is because rurally there arent that many services. But some did after consulting with their local doctor. Many just utilized the various hotlines that were set up. Particularly gay and lesbian kids that were struggling with it. Others did get more professional help. I also think changing the culture of schools helped a lot. It is a big and at times ugly part of australian culture that nobody respects a dobber. This means that traditionally bullies got away with anything. This culture is slowly changing and kids are being taught that there is a difference between getting help in stadning up for yourself and just ratting out a kid for something that is relatively victimless. Whooter is putting up all of these dire stats about kids dying on their way home from school. What is the bullying situation in american schools? is much being done about it?

[DannyB II]

Children on the other hand don't make their own decisions, their parents do. Thank god for that because I believe there would be many more suicides.

What about the kids attempting or committing suicide specifically because of what happened to them in program? Outside of court-mandated placements, it was the parents' decision(s) that put these kids there.

I don't wish to imply that this is totally the parents' fault here. We live in a society which seems to take as a given, despite evidence to the contrary, that emotional growth programs and residential placements are an appropriate answer.

Other countries would appear to be less inculcated in that respect, and yet they are still making progress in reducing their suicide rates:

Between 1997 when the issue was at its peak and now the [suicide] rate has fallen steadily every year not just in young people but across the board. Not one of the measures taken involved taking anyone against their will away from their community or being forced to attend an emotional workshop that they were uncomfortable with.

Ursus,
What has to happen here is to analyze whether the program has directly caused this suicide and discern this information with a proper case study, by professionals.
Which by my studies one has not been done officially yet. I may be wrong on that but my bet would be I'm not.
Many posters here have mentioned they believe such in such committed suicide because of his incarceration in Straight, Elan, Benchmark, HLA ect......but we have not had a psychiatric forensic study done on any subject, yet. I would love to see a extensive study done on at least one person without all the hub-bub, so I could see if it was just the program consequences.
I believe everyone here knows that for maybe 98% of these people who committed suicide in the program or after had serious mental and emotional problems prior to even entering the program. Most had already been prone to suicidal tendencies.

Well... at the very least, ya have to admit that the program did not help them and may have even exacerbated their "problems." And yes, in some cases, specific abuses inflicted by the program or experienced while at program have been enough to cause suicidal ideation.

No I will not argue that point, especially if they were in a program such as Elan.

Personally, I think one-on-one therapy with a professional of the kid's choosing would be a far more sensible route to explore than sticking them into a Lord of the Flies scenario and hoping for the best.


One on one counseling of the kids choosing, "yeah right". The kid is what, 15 years old, having suicidal craving and your saying the child should be interviewing Doctors, for his therapy.
Ursus if you could be anymore phony, I don't think it is possible.

Considering that some of these "problems" are little more than ordinary adolescence and that in all likelihood kids will outgrow them, as they usually tend to do, the fact that programs can push kids over the edge to the point of suicide would be of concern to me, were I a parent contemplating their kid's enrollment...

Problems, "are little more than ordinary adolescence and that they will grow out of it" is this what "grandma" told ya Ursus. In one of her old fable books.
Well when you want to grow up or wake up, will be waiting right here to have a big boy conversation with you.
Your type of flagrant disregard of children's need for treatment is only exacerbating the suicide rate, Ursus.

[RobertBruce]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Suicide
by Whooter » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:53 pm

No, I wouldn’t call it negligent. If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them. The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.

How do these programs help exactly Whooter? Also wouldn't something like a suicide watch, for an at risk kid be considered proactive? In that same sense wouldn't not monitoring a child who is at risk then negligent?

[DannyB II]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Suicide
by Whooter » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:53 pm

No, I wouldn’t call it negligent. If a person wants to take his or her life there is not much anyone can do to stop them. The programs help the children by providing them with (and teaching them) a healthy life style, life skills, coping mechanisms and a safe and structured environment which will help the child choose a better path in life.

How do these programs help exactly Whooter? Also wouldn't something like a suicide watch, for an at risk kid be considered proactive? In that same sense wouldn't not monitoring a child who is at risk then negligent?

Geez, I wish we could all live in your simple practical world. Why don't ya write up a finding and submit it to Whooter, Suck It and myself for a Peer Review, OK, DJ.

[RobertBruce]

I'm not sure there's anyone posting on here ill informed enough to be considered your peer Danny. You're just going to have to learn to keep up with the rest of us.

[DannyB II]

I'm not sure there's anyone posting on here ill informed enough to be considered your peer Danny. You're just going to have to learn to keep up with the rest of us.

Keep trying there young man, DJ one day you will catch up with exactly who I am and how informed I really am.