Fornits group think

[SUCK IT]

When I first started reading fornits it took some time to get used to the workings and flow of the conversation here. At first its confusing, people seem to be fighting with each other and you have no idea why, or what about. But eventually I started to figure it out and then finally decided to jump in the fray and offer up my own opinions on discussion taking place. I'm sure many people have a similar experience when they first arrive here.

There was a reason why I was reluctant to start posting and was just a lurker for a long time. This is what I commonly refer to as Fornits Group Think. Fornits is good at hashing out ideas and discussing many different viewpoints. But rather than leave the discussion with these varying conclusions and ideas, some posters have a strong urge as it would seem, to end the conversation with a group consensus. I think this is a reason why threads go on for hundreds of pages, and the same argument gets had over and over again. Now to give credit to those who do this, as I probably have as well at times, is sometimes you can be effective in changing people's minds.

For instance when a "survivor" starts posting here but claiming they did fine in a treatment program, the "mind changer" posters are quick to get involved. The first stage these mind changer posters use is guilt. Dysfunction demonstrated this during our spat on why I choose not to call myself by the term "survivor". I choose not to call myself this, because it just makes me uncomfortable, on an instinctual level I must know its wrong because I just can't do it, sort of like trying to say "I love you" to someone you really don't, the words just feel wrong. And so it is with me and the politically correct fornits term. This seems to bother dysfunction so much that he was accusing me of disparaging rape victims. He had a good reason and it's the first step these mind-changers use, which is guilt.

It goes something like this. I went through treatment and did great, and post the name of the program, and when I was there. I say I did fine, never abused and graduated grateful. Then the mind-changers guilt posts will start. The first step is to inform you that your opinions dangerous to the credibility of those who were abused, and basically suggest that you just plain shut up, you know, so as not to invalidate, harm, discredit or question the testimonies of the "real victims". I've seen this happen a lot of times on fornits. I reject this theory that people who do well should remain silent, so those who had negative experiences  can remain credible. OF course fornits claims this is an open forum welcoming all opinions, and perhaps on a structural level this is true, anyone can post here. But the gang of extremists which reside here make sure that this is never possible, because guilt is only the first step.

The second step employed by the mind-changers is humiliation and manipulation. Since you were naive enough to provide them information when you first arrived, they will scour your posts for any sign of manipulatable anecdotes. They'll quote something you wrote about happened in treatment and explain, you don't get it, don't you see? This is abuse, you are just ignorant of what abuse really means. Then they explain the watered down fornits definition of the word, which includes any kid who ever went to any treatment center. Oh, you say. Well, I'm new and I don't want to diminish the claims of these heart wrenching stories I keep hearing, I better also refer to myself as a "survivor", say I "was abused", and just shut up about the good things I remember about the program. Over time, the truth they had within them starts to fade and the mythology of fornits takes over, and it becomes their truth.

But there are some strong willed people out there who say, you know what, fuck it. I earned my rights to my opinions, I will say what I want and I know the truth and don't need to hide it to be politically correct and fit in with "the gang" on fornits. This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms. They'll investigate tirelessly to find out who you really are, in real life, and use that information to pressure you into silence. They'll post angry threats about how they wish you bodily harm, or that you were dead, in an attempt to scare you. "Better not mess with these people, they sound really crazy!" seems to be the image they wish to portray sometimes.

This sounds like what? Kind of like a cult, right? When a group of people come up with a mythology that no individual comes to believe on their own, outside the influence of this group, what is that called? That is called group think.

 I should point out that, this is not just limited to "survivors", but it goes for almost every poster here, including parents of "survivors" like Whooter and that 15 year old girl's parents. Fornits has morphed from a discussion into a cult suffering from a bad case of group think, and it "brainwashes" people into this cult more than I've ever seen anyone brainwashed in treatment, thereby destroying the ability for people to post their truths and explain the details of treatment experiences. Instead the gang enforces a lowest common denominator echo chamber, where if you question your imposed politically correct title, somehow this equates with disparaging rape survivors of all things. Who brings rape into a conversation where it isn't being discussed? Someone with a desperate need to bring it down to the base emotional level, with a heavy dose of guilt. More cult bullshit from the so called educated among us.

Of course, as amusing as it is for people who never went to treatment to explain to those who have experienced it, what treatment programs are really like, this type of discussion produces nothing. Instead of these people listening and learning about other people's experiences in treatment, they hold onto their mythology with a tight grip and use its delusions to dismiss what is a more accurate truth than their own. I find this particularly interesting, when these same people claim others are brainwashed, etc, they are literally drowning in irony. Extremist don't wish to have a honest discussion, they simply want to disseminate their mythology to others who are gullible enough to listen,  and bully those who question it into silence. If that's what you consider a "survivor community" then you people really are lost.

[Paul St. John]

says Professor Suck It.

[Paul St. John]

But there are some strong willed people out there who say, you know what, fuck it. I earned my rights to my opinions, I will say what I want and I know the truth and don't need to hide it to be politically correct and fit in with "the gang" on fornits.

It takes tons of will to go against the grain in a message board

and under a false name, never the less.

You are a true hero.

Paul St. John

[BuzzKill]

How can you claim Fornits is a group think tank - even comparing the forum to a cult in this respect - when YOU post here at will? No one is blocking you from comment, or dropping your account because you have expressed a POV not shared by the majority of frequent posters.

Find me another forum, operated by the pro-program crowd, where I wouldn't be blocked and banned in very short order.

Lon even kicked me off his little forum (twice) and I was always perfectly polite.

I've even been banned from newspaper's forums for expressing my POV on this topic even tho I was in no way being profain or threatening.

TAHT is group think at work.
THIS is not.

[Paul St. John]

Ken Zaretsky banned me twice, and I, too, was perfectly polite.

Paul

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Lon even kicked me off his little forum (twice) and I was always perfectly polite.

Oh hell, Lon eventually got to the point where he was trying to prevent us from reading the forum. He got infiltrated more than once. Eventually it died due to lack of participation.

[SUCK IT]

To BuzzKill,
As I said in my post, the structure of fornits forum allows free discussion. I did not fault the admins for censoring or rigging. I blame the self righteous enforcement gang, a group of extremist posters enforcing the cult's beliefs on their own will, as explained in my original post in this thread.

To everyone else,
Thanks for your opinions.

[Paul St. John]

This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.

The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.

Let's check it out:

Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)

Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program.  The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.

Paul St. John

[SUCK IT]

To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Have I ever expressed an opinion on fornits because I was trying to get a reaction from other posters?

Fixed.

Textbook definition of trolling.

[Paul St. John]

This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.

The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.

Let's check it out:

Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)

Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program.  The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.

Paul St. John

To make my point more explicit, I should probably add that Danny has not threatened people once or twice, but that he does it often.
I tried "friending" the now famous Wayne, to see if he was really a writer, and learn about his book.  ( He apologetically refused me, because he thought that I might be associated with Danny, and is worried that Danny might threaten his friend's and family, if he got access to them. [ I don t actually think Danny would do that, but that is the reputation he has earned himself])


Oh wait.... I forgot... There is one other person who posts here some times, who just loves threatening people.  Good ol' ARTMAN!  


and what do Danny and Art both have in common?  That's right. They were both program-staff.  I guess it's just another one of those isolated incidents.

Paul St. John

[BuzzKill]

To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.

Why is that? Are you serious?

People are geared by their nature to want to "fit in". No one is comfortable facing opposition or being singled out or being ridiculed - something the programs take great advantage of in creating the emotional trauma required to shatter a person's world view, their trust and faith and their "sense of self", so that they can then provide all this anew in a package they feel is more "positive". Its called coercive persuasion, or more simply: Brain Washing.  

Here on Fornits, a person might well think twice about posting a POV that differs from that of the majority b/c they don't feel up to facing the on-slough of opposition, but they have no fear of being banned or shunned - something universally  common in the group think forums operated by the opposing side.

I have been on all kinds of forums dealing with all kinds of issues, and I have never seen anything like fornits for sheer freedom of expression; or with so much bold individuality and willingness to express it. This exist here in such extreme measures, I have at times felt this was doing more harm than good. One thing for sure - what ever else is true of this forum - what ever else it might be - a group think forum it is not.

To say as you do, that free thought and expression is allowed but that it is a group think forum is oxymoronic.

[SUCK IT]

To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.

Why is that? Are you serious?

People are geared by their nature to want to "fit in". No one is comfortable facing opposition or being singled out or being ridiculed - something the programs take great advantage of in creating the emotional trauma required to shatter a person's world view, their trust and faith and their "sense of self", so that they can then provide all this anew in a package they feel is more "positive". Its called coercive persuasion, or more simply: Brain Washing.  

Here on Fornits, a person might well think twice about posting a POV that differs from that of the majority b/c they don't feel up to facing the on-slough of opposition, but they have no fear of being banned or shunned - something universally  common in the group think forums operated by the opposing side.

I have been on all kinds of forums dealing with all kinds of issues, and I have never seen anything like fornits for sheer freedom of expression; or with so much bold individuality and willingness to express it. This exist here in such extreme measures, I have at times felt this was doing more harm than good. One thing for sure - what ever else is true of this forum - what ever else it might be - a group think forum it is not.

To say as you do, that free thought and expression is allowed but that it is a group think forum is oxymoronic.

I completely agree with everything you say. I am fully aware and recognize that fornits structures itself as a place for free expression of ideas, and that's wonderful, that's why I post here. Unfortunately some posters here fail to live up to this ideal and take it on their own to form, from my view, as an extremist cult that is seeped in group think mythology and enforced by bullying, manipulation, and threats. I don't claim that every poster here is a part of this group. But as you acknowledged, people do indeed withhold their true opinions in light of what they perceive as an "on-slough of opposition" and sometimes that response can be intense, as experienced recently by the family of a girl only seeking advice. I didn't attempt to make the point that I was ever banned for holding pro treatment views, or pro AA/NA views. The group think is imposed by users of the forum, not the forum hierarchy itself.

The type of extremism going on on this forum is more dangerous to kids than any program. What if this 15 year old girl had followed the suicidal and life destroying advice of Pile or Niles or even dysfunctional junction? She could be sitting in jail facing life behind bars for killing someone, or dead for having crashed her families car on the way to treatment, or worse. What kind of advice is it for a supposed professional child advocate like dysfunction to tell a young girl, better run away before your program tour, because you'll never come home, or better yet act up in ways that keep your mother occupied and bankrupt her. Yet they call someone like me, a troll? Remember this is a program that has no history of abuse, never once mentioned on fornits. Does this not strike you as slightly ironic and disingenuous on their part? Some people just accept their bullshit, and I choose to call it out when I see it. This garners much scorn for me, well it sucks to be me but it has to be said. At least I know I'm being honest with myself when I post even if I don't make any friends.  :cry:

From someone holding an outside perspective on this industry, this is how the forum felt to me.  I know other people will disagree. To someone that has sympathies against treatment, well they just might fit right in and never experience and subconsciously ignore the things I describe above. But ask someone who had the wrong opinion at the wrong time, and see if they think I am totally out of the ballpark in my opinions.

Thanks for your very interest addition of ideas to this discussion thread. I hope others can offer up their opinions and views on why they agree or disagree with my analysis, after all this is a discussion forum. Lets discuss

[SUCK IT]

I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse? To me this is incomprehensible, so I post ideas and my own observations about why I believe this current state of affairs exists on fornits.

To me its clear that to hold such extreme views that you'd actually offer up such suicidal advice, you must have a fundamentally misunderstanding as to the true reality of what its really like in programs. This brings in the mythology, to tell a 15 year old girl to hit the streets instead of going to treatment, your view of what happens in treatment is way off. Magnify this times 10 when discussing a place with no history of abuse whatsoever. So its obvious to me the foundational knowledge upon which advice could come from is flawed. For some posters I believe this foundational knowledge is not based so much in experience in treatment,as much as what they've read here, including the typical fornits mythology I discussed before.

I think its an important question why it is some people here actually believe the absurd advice given by certain posters. I think it needs to be addressed, because obviously people are getting the wrong information if they would tell a young girl such things. I went to a so called abusive facility discussed here, I would never give advice like that to a kid. By doing so I would be greatly putting at risk the kid, and I know that the reality of treatment I experienced does not match up to the colorful mythology and lore that I was supposed to experience, had I only read fornits first. Well I didn't, so all I have to go on is what I experienced and observed, and how that relates to the, from my point of view, extremely skewed reality that is often times presented on fornits. I just thought I'd point that out, and maybe get people thinking, how is it possible that someone could honestly offer up such absurd advice, and what knowledge is such advice based on? Then you will get an idea of where I am coming from and why I start certain discussion threads.

[Paul St. John]

I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse?

I admit that I am conflicted here.  I do find it crazy recommend to a 15 year old girl that she murder someone, opt for jail, run away , or bankrupt her family.  That is my initial reaction. I find those ideas crazy, and I want nothing to do with them.

Then there is this other bottom-line logic that someone like Pile can no doubt rouse up in me.

- If you are being forced to go somewhere, against your will, that you perceive to be a threat, do you have the right to defend yourself, even to the point, of ending the life, of another(the person applying force to you), if it became absolutely necessary? Although, it would probably not put you in a good place in society, and strategically would be a stupid move, is it morally wrong?

( I don't want to get into too much detail, because the lives of people I know are no one here's business, unless they wanted to talk about them, but as vague, as I can be, growing up, I had a friend, who was a really good guy.  He left one morning to go on a family vacation, that really wasn t. One minute he is sitting in his car, excited about his destination, the next he si surrounded by a bunch of cultist-fucks, trying to physically force him, into their "family-school".  He tried to defend himself with a baseball bat, and it's worth mentioning he was a peaceful guy.

I don't know... as adults, you view things differently- more practical.. but as a kid, 17 years ago, I was proud of him. He was defending himself.  He had problems, but everybody did. It was part of growing up.)


-Now, the jail-thing... For Morgan, No!  I would definitely not recommend jail.  I think she would be better off floating her way through the program, but I do know of people who opted for jail, over going back to Daytop, which wasn t really nearly as bad as some other places, and afterwards, they were really glad they did it.


Running away- again, not for Morgan.. but perhaps for some, in her situation..  We gotta remember here.  They didn t give her any outs.  They told her that if she did this, and that, she didn t have to go, but when she agreed, she still had to go no matter what.  dad was willing to keep his promise, but mom had made her mind up long ago... And it s also worth mentioning here, that while I strongly disagree with what Pile did, with the posting of the info and such, I don t disagree that the parents are assholes, and the things that I learned from what he posted, only confirmed that further for me.  I am not gonna jump on Danny B's boat about "Parent Abuse".  Adults can take care of themselves, which is clearly demonstrated by how people deal with his attacks. When I saw the pics of Morgan's mom, I asked myself, "and what program shall we send this one too?"

My opinion based on what I saw, is that she wants her "troubled" daughter out of the way, so she has less impediments to pursue her own troubles.

I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away.  I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though.  (hence, my being conflicted)


Bankrupting your own family to avoid going?  I gotta admit it sounds really fucked up, and selfiish to me..

But now let's say you are a kid, and don t want to be shipped off.  Your parents are sending you away with little regard, or any curiosity about how you feel about it.  We all spoke to Morgan.  She was a very intelligent, mature young woman.  We are not talking about a girl getting high on drugs, inflicting harm against herself, a pyro -maniac, or any other shit.  What is her best defense?  Her family has turned her back on her, is it morally wrong for her to attempt to bankrupt her family for protection from them?  I don t know.. She would only be trying to defend herself.. I wouldn t offer it as advice, because in the end, she will only be making more problems for herself.  It is a dumb silly idea.  DJ is silly.  It is ashame too.  because if he matured a bit, he could be very effective.



In my life, I don t have to worry about none of this shit.  I just know, somehow, that no one that I care about, will go to one of these programs, so long as I am alive.  I trust myself to make sure of that, as sure as the sky is blue, without my having to do anything stupid, reccomend anything stupid, or cause harm to anyone.

Paul St. John