Author Topic: Programs In Behrens Study Charged with Abuse  (Read 19286 times)

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Offline Troll Control

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Programs In Behrens Study Charged with Abuse
« on: July 23, 2010, 12:14:01 PM »
We all know about Mount Bachelor Academy's recent closure due to child abuse and neglect and that Aspen Education has claimed in court that it provides no therapy.  

MBA was one of the programs that was studied in Behrens' work.  The fact that MBA was closed for abusing children and that Behrens concluded MBA was "effective" despite offering no therapy and abusing hundreds of children is terribly troubling to say the least.

Here's a list of the all of the programs she looked at:

Academy at Swift River, Aspen Ranch, Copper Canyon Academy, Mount Bachelor Academy, Stone Mountain School, Pine Ridge Academy, SunHawk Academy,Turnabout Ranch, and Youth Care, Inc.

Academy at Swift River has been cited by state authorities for child abuse.  

How many of the others have been as well?  Are there any untainted entities in this study?
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Re: Programs In Behrens Study Charged with Abuse
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 08:28:49 AM »
Anybody else have familiarity with these other programs?
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Re: Programs In Behrens Study Charged with Abuse
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 10:41:47 AM »
youth care was where brendan blum died. He complained and they ignored it charges were filed against the staff. His mother researched the place and was lead to beleive he would get top quality care. I wonder if this study was one of the things that convinced her that the poor boy would be in good hands.

Charges Filed in Death of Brendan Blum
2 youth counselors charged in California boy's death
14-year-old was staying at treatment center in Draper

By Pat Reavy and Rebecca Palmer
Deseret Morning News
Published: October 12, 2007

Two counselors at a residential youth treatment center in Draper where a 14-year-old boy died in June were charged Thursday in connection with the boy's death.

Deborah Cole and Jorge Ramirez, from Youth Care Inc., 12600 Minuteman Drive, each face one count of abuse or neglect of a child, a third-degree felony.

On June 27, Brendan Blum of California was suffering bowel and stomach problems. He had been vomiting and suffering from diarrhea all night, said Draper Police Sgt. Gerry Allred. Rather than contacting the on-call nurse as the facility's policy dictates, the boy was simply given some medicine and put in a separate room away from the rest of the boys, he said. The next morning, the boy, who was listed as a disabled child because he had Asperger's syndrome, was found dead on his mattress.

"There was no really good reason why they didn't take him ... no explanation except they just thought it was an upset stomach," Allred said.

An autopsy determined the boy had an obstructed bowel that deteriorated as the night went on, Allred said. The on-call nurse, who was later interviewed by police, said if she had been called to look at the boy she would have advised he immediately go to the hospital, he said.
The Utah State Medical Examiner concurred, "if medical intervention had been obtained, (the boy's) death would have been preventable," according to court documents.

The boy's mother, Dana Blum, said she is appalled that workers at the facility didn't take him to an emergency room. Any time a child dies while in the care of a licensed facility, the facility should be shut down immediately, she said.

Blum has filed a complaint with the Utah licensing board and is waiting for the investigation to be completed.

She hopes the individuals who operated the facility will be held accountable along with the workers.

"I don't wish them any ill, I would just like to see justice done for my son," she said.

The facility issued a statement shortly after the boy's death saying it was the result of a "medical condition." The group home is operated by Aspen Education Group, based in Cerritos, Calif. It is a division of the CRC Health Group, which runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs and weight-loss camps.

Ironically, the charges came one day after the Government Accountability Office in Washington, D.C., found thousands of abuse allegations at camps and other private treatment facilities around the country.

Blum hopes the national attention will result in stricter standards and more accountability across the board.

Brendan was placed in the facility following treatment at a California hospital. Blum said she researched Youth Care Inc. extensively before sending her son there.

"This is double-edged sword for me," she said. "I am not a deadbeat mom."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretakers at Draper youth care center charged with child abuse in death of 14-year-old

By Jason Bergreen
The Salt Lake Tribune Article
Last Updated: 10/11/2007 05:22:00 PM MDT

Two caretakers at a Draper assisted-living facility were charged Thursday with failing to provide medical aid to a 14-year-old resident who died under their supervision in June. Jorge Ramirez and Deborah Cole were both on duty at Youth Care Inc. on June 27 when 14-year-old Brendan Blum of Santa Barbara, Calif., died.

An autopsy concluded that Blum died from an inadequate blood supply to his small bowel, according to a criminal complaint filed in 3rd District Court. On the night of his death, Blum had a loss of bowel control, vomited and complained of stomach pain, but Ramirez and Cole did not provide or seek medical help for him, the complaint states.

Blum was found dead on the morning of June 28. A state medical examiner concluded that Blum's death could have been prevented if he had been given medical attention.

"Secure treatment facilities are responsible for providing appropriate medical treatment and care for the children entrusted to their supervision," Salt Lake County District Attorney Lohra Miller said in a news release. "In this case, it is alleged that a young boy's need for emergency medical treatment was ignored and that this negligence resulted in the boy's death." Miller also said that state law requires that treatment facilities and their employees be held to a "heightened standard of care."

Blum was at the facility because he had Asperger's Syndrome, a disorder related to autism.

Cole and Ramirez are each charged with one third-degree felony count of abuse or neglect of a child. The crime is punishable by up to five years in jail.

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Offline Ursus

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BRENDAN BLUM, @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 11:08:50 AM »
Quote
Charges Filed in Death of Brendan Blum
2 youth counselors charged in California boy's death
14-year-old was staying at treatment center in Draper


By Pat Reavy and Rebecca Palmer
Deseret Morning News
Published: October 12, 2007


Two counselors at a residential youth treatment center in Draper where a 14-year-old boy died in June were charged Thursday in connection with the boy's death.

Deborah Cole and Jorge Ramirez, from Youth Care Inc., 12600 Minuteman Drive, each face one count of abuse or neglect of a child, a third-degree felony.

On June 27, Brendan Blum of California was suffering bowel and stomach problems. He had been vomiting and suffering from diarrhea all night, said Draper Police Sgt. Gerry Allred. Rather than contacting the on-call nurse as the facility's policy dictates, the boy was simply given some medicine and put in a separate room away from the rest of the boys, he said. The next morning, the boy, who was listed as a disabled child because he had Asperger's syndrome, was found dead on his mattress.

"There was no really good reason why they didn't take him ... no explanation except they just thought it was an upset stomach," Allred said.

An autopsy determined the boy had an obstructed bowel that deteriorated as the night went on, Allred said. The on-call nurse, who was later interviewed by police, said if she had been called to look at the boy she would have advised he immediately go to the hospital, he said.
The Utah State Medical Examiner concurred, "if medical intervention had been obtained, (the boy's) death would have been preventable," according to court documents.

The boy's mother, Dana Blum, said she is appalled that workers at the facility didn't take him to an emergency room. Any time a child dies while in the care of a licensed facility, the facility should be shut down immediately, she said.

Blum has filed a complaint with the Utah licensing board and is waiting for the investigation to be completed.

She hopes the individuals who operated the facility will be held accountable along with the workers.

"I don't wish them any ill, I would just like to see justice done for my son," she said.

The facility issued a statement shortly after the boy's death saying it was the result of a "medical condition." The group home is operated by Aspen Education Group, based in Cerritos, Calif. It is a division of the CRC Health Group, which runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs and weight-loss camps.

Ironically, the charges came one day after the Government Accountability Office in Washington, D.C., found thousands of abuse allegations at camps and other private treatment facilities around the country.

Blum hopes the national attention will result in stricter standards and more accountability across the board.

Brendan was placed in the facility following treatment at a California hospital. Blum said she researched Youth Care Inc. extensively before sending her son there.

"This is double-edged sword for me," she said. "I am not a deadbeat mom."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretakers at Draper youth care center charged with child abuse in death of 14-year-old

By Jason Bergreen
The Salt Lake Tribune Article
Last Updated: 10/11/2007 05:22:00 PM MDT


Two caretakers at a Draper assisted-living facility were charged Thursday with failing to provide medical aid to a 14-year-old resident who died under their supervision in June. Jorge Ramirez and Deborah Cole were both on duty at Youth Care Inc. on June 27 when 14-year-old Brendan Blum of Santa Barbara, Calif., died.

An autopsy concluded that Blum died from an inadequate blood supply to his small bowel, according to a criminal complaint filed in 3rd District Court. On the night of his death, Blum had a loss of bowel control, vomited and complained of stomach pain, but Ramirez and Cole did not provide or seek medical help for him, the complaint states.

Blum was found dead on the morning of June 28. A state medical examiner concluded that Blum's death could have been prevented if he had been given medical attention.

"Secure treatment facilities are responsible for providing appropriate medical treatment and care for the children entrusted to their supervision," Salt Lake County District Attorney Lohra Miller said in a news release. "In this case, it is alleged that a young boy's need for emergency medical treatment was ignored and that this negligence resulted in the boy's death." Miller also said that state law requires that treatment facilities and their employees be held to a "heightened standard of care."

Blum was at the facility because he had Asperger's Syndrome, a disorder related to autism.

Cole and Ramirez are each charged with one third-degree felony count of abuse or neglect of a child. The crime is punishable by up to five years in jail.
--> LINK for the above two articles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: BRENDAN BLUM, @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 11:17:27 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote
Charges Filed in Death of Brendan Blum
2 youth counselors charged in California boy's death
14-year-old was staying at treatment center in Draper


By Pat Reavy and Rebecca Palmer
Deseret Morning News
Published: October 12, 2007


Two counselors at a residential youth treatment center in Draper where a 14-year-old boy died in June were charged Thursday in connection with the boy's death.

Deborah Cole and Jorge Ramirez, from Youth Care Inc., 12600 Minuteman Drive, each face one count of abuse or neglect of a child, a third-degree felony.

On June 27, Brendan Blum of California was suffering bowel and stomach problems. He had been vomiting and suffering from diarrhea all night, said Draper Police Sgt. Gerry Allred. Rather than contacting the on-call nurse as the facility's policy dictates, the boy was simply given some medicine and put in a separate room away from the rest of the boys, he said. The next morning, the boy, who was listed as a disabled child because he had Asperger's syndrome, was found dead on his mattress.

"There was no really good reason why they didn't take him ... no explanation except they just thought it was an upset stomach," Allred said.

An autopsy determined the boy had an obstructed bowel that deteriorated as the night went on, Allred said. The on-call nurse, who was later interviewed by police, said if she had been called to look at the boy she would have advised he immediately go to the hospital, he said.
The Utah State Medical Examiner concurred, "if medical intervention had been obtained, (the boy's) death would have been preventable," according to court documents.

The boy's mother, Dana Blum, said she is appalled that workers at the facility didn't take him to an emergency room. Any time a child dies while in the care of a licensed facility, the facility should be shut down immediately, she said.

Blum has filed a complaint with the Utah licensing board and is waiting for the investigation to be completed.

She hopes the individuals who operated the facility will be held accountable along with the workers.

"I don't wish them any ill, I would just like to see justice done for my son," she said.

The facility issued a statement shortly after the boy's death saying it was the result of a "medical condition." The group home is operated by Aspen Education Group, based in Cerritos, Calif. It is a division of the CRC Health Group, which runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs and weight-loss camps.

Ironically, the charges came one day after the Government Accountability Office in Washington, D.C., found thousands of abuse allegations at camps and other private treatment facilities around the country.

Blum hopes the national attention will result in stricter standards and more accountability across the board.

Brendan was placed in the facility following treatment at a California hospital. Blum said she researched Youth Care Inc. extensively before sending her son there.

"This is double-edged sword for me," she said. "I am not a deadbeat mom."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretakers at Draper youth care center charged with child abuse in death of 14-year-old

By Jason Bergreen
The Salt Lake Tribune Article
Last Updated: 10/11/2007 05:22:00 PM MDT


Two caretakers at a Draper assisted-living facility were charged Thursday with failing to provide medical aid to a 14-year-old resident who died under their supervision in June. Jorge Ramirez and Deborah Cole were both on duty at Youth Care Inc. on June 27 when 14-year-old Brendan Blum of Santa Barbara, Calif., died.

An autopsy concluded that Blum died from an inadequate blood supply to his small bowel, according to a criminal complaint filed in 3rd District Court. On the night of his death, Blum had a loss of bowel control, vomited and complained of stomach pain, but Ramirez and Cole did not provide or seek medical help for him, the complaint states.

Blum was found dead on the morning of June 28. A state medical examiner concluded that Blum's death could have been prevented if he had been given medical attention.

"Secure treatment facilities are responsible for providing appropriate medical treatment and care for the children entrusted to their supervision," Salt Lake County District Attorney Lohra Miller said in a news release. "In this case, it is alleged that a young boy's need for emergency medical treatment was ignored and that this negligence resulted in the boy's death." Miller also said that state law requires that treatment facilities and their employees be held to a "heightened standard of care."

Blum was at the facility because he had Asperger's Syndrome, a disorder related to autism.

Cole and Ramirez are each charged with one third-degree felony count of abuse or neglect of a child. The crime is punishable by up to five years in jail.
--> LINK for the above two articles.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Programs In Behrens Study Charged with Abuse
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 11:37:14 AM »
Quote from: "Oz girl"
youth care was where brendan blum died. He complained and they ignored it charges were filed against the staff. His mother researched the place and was lead to beleive he would get top quality care. I wonder if this study was one of the things that convinced her that the poor boy would be in good hands.

It was so sad to hear of that boys death and that it could have been so easily prevented.  Does anyone know if the two people who did this received jail time?  

Oz Girl, The study was released and presented at the APA convention in 2006 so it is possible she read the study prior to placement.



...
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Offline Ursus

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BRENDAN BLUM's death @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 12:28:55 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Oz girl"
youth care was where brendan blum died. He complained and they ignored it charges were filed against the staff. His mother researched the place and was lead to beleive he would get top quality care. I wonder if this study was one of the things that convinced her that the poor boy would be in good hands.
It was so sad to hear of that boys death and that it could have been so easily prevented.  Does anyone know if the two people who did this received jail time?

Oz Girl, The study was released and presented at the APA convention in 2006 so it is possible she read the study prior to placement.
Youth Care Inc. was placed on probation but was free to take on new clients. After nine months or so, charges against the two counselors were subsequently dismissed. It's Utah, so... how could anyone be surprised at this point?
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Offline Ursus

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Facility put on probation, but free to take new clients
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »
Facility put on probation, but free to take new clients

By Kirsten Stewart The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 10/13/2007 12:55:43 AM MDT


A residential youth treatment center was cited on Friday for providing inadequate medical care to Brendan James Blum, a 14-year-old California boy who died at its Draper facility.

Utah licensers placed Youth Care of Utah on probation, requiring the center to, among other requirements, retool employee training. Youth Care was not fined and it is free to accept new clients, though no more than five every 30 days.

The disciplinary action was reached as part of a settlement between the facility and lawyers for the state Human Services Office of Licensing, which regulates Utah's teen-help industry. Licensing director Ken Stettler said he hopes Friday's action shows the state takes its watchdog role seriously. It comes a day after criminal neglect charges were filed against two former Youth Care counselors in connection with Brendan's June 28 death.

It also coincides with a congressional probe into wilderness camps, which detailed thousands of cases of abuse nationwide since 1990. Of 10 deaths detailed in the federal report, five occurred in Utah.

The cases showed a pattern of lax government oversight and medical neglect, with counselors assuming the teens were making up their symptoms. Brendan Blum's mother, Dana Blum, fears the same issues may have played a role in her son's death. Blum said she "feels" for the employees at Youth Care, but said the facility should have been shut down, at least temporarily, and the owners held accountable.

"Nothing will bring Brendan back," said Blum. "But the bottom line is that when a parent makes a difficult decision to place their child in a treatment program, the management and caretakers have a responsibility to ensure their safety. There shouldn't be any tolerance for the death of a child."


# # #
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Facility put on probation, but free to take new clients
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 12:45:30 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Licensing director Ken Stettler said he hopes Friday's action shows the state takes its watchdog role seriously.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

A meaningless "probation" and laughable "requirements" are what he thinks will fix this? Really?

Ken Stettler can't be taken seriously at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline Ursus

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Re: Facility put on probation, but free to take new clients
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 12:49:21 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Quote from: "Kirsten Stewart of The Salt Lake Tribune"
Licensing director Ken Stettler said he hopes Friday's action shows the state takes its watchdog role seriously.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

A meaningless "probation" and laughable "requirements" are what he thinks will fix this? Really?

Ken Stettler can't be taken seriously at all.
This has been observed many a time, by many a poster.
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Offline Ursus

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Charges against youth counselors in teen's death dismissed
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 12:56:34 PM »
Deseret News
Charges against youth counselors in teen's death dismissed

Published: Wednesday, Sept. 17, 2008 12:00 a.m. MDT

A 3rd District Court judge has dismissed neglect charges against two counselors of a residential youth treatment center in Draper.

Deborah Cole and Jorge Ramirez, from Youth Care Inc., 12600 Minuteman Drive, were charged last October with one count each of abuse or neglect of a child, a third-degree felony. The charges stemmed from the death of California resident Brendan Blum in June 2007.

Blum was having stomach problems and had been vomiting and suffering from diarrhea all night. But rather than contacting the facility's on-call nurse, Blum was given some medicine and placed in a room away from the other boys. The next morning he was found dead on his mattress.

An autopsy later revealed the boy had an obstructed bowel that deteriorated as the night progressed. Police said when they later interviewed the nurse, she said she would have recommended he go to the hospital immediately.

Defense attorneys argued to dismiss the case, noting that Blum suffered from a rare medical condition that presented itself as flu-like symptoms. Prosecutors fought the motion. But in late July, Judge Robert Adkins ordered the charges dismissed, finding no probable cause that Blum was neglected.

Alicia Cook, with the Salt Lake District Attorney's Office, said her office felt it was the right decision to file charges in the case, but that, "We are understanding of the decision (to dismiss). In all fairness, we have to acknowledge the reasons underlying the judge's decision."


# # #
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Offline Whooter

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Re: BRENDAN BLUM's death @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 01:02:39 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Oz girl"
youth care was where brendan blum died. He complained and they ignored it charges were filed against the staff. His mother researched the place and was lead to beleive he would get top quality care. I wonder if this study was one of the things that convinced her that the poor boy would be in good hands.
It was so sad to hear of that boys death and that it could have been so easily prevented.  Does anyone know if the two people who did this received jail time?

Oz Girl, The study was released and presented at the APA convention in 2006 so it is possible she read the study prior to placement.
Youth Care Inc. was placed on probation but was free to take on new clients. After nine months or so, charges against the two counselors were subsequently dismissed. It's Utah, so... how could anyone be surprised at this point?

I am surprised the counselors were not charged, although we dont have all the information.  Many of these deaths come down to proper training and the slowness to react because they think the kids are faking.  So there is no intent to harm the kids is what I am reading from the lack of prosecution on many of these.

I remember my daughter saying it was tough to get people to realize you were really sick because there were so many kids faking it to get out of chores or school.  If you were running a fever or had the flu the kids got to sleep in the nurses office and they would bring you snacks and drinks.  I think this may play into why many of the kids are not taken seriously right away and make take a little longer to realize there is a real issue.



...
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: BRENDAN BLUM's death @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 01:08:26 PM »
[quote="Whooter]So there is no intent to harm the kids is what I am reading from the lack of prosecution on many of these.
[/quote]


No, they just assume they're all druggie brats who are faking and they couldn't care less about them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Re: BRENDAN BLUM's death @ Youth care Inc.
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 01:09:50 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Oz girl"
youth care was where brendan blum died. He complained and they ignored it charges were filed against the staff. His mother researched the place and was lead to beleive he would get top quality care. I wonder if this study was one of the things that convinced her that the poor boy would be in good hands.
It was so sad to hear of that boys death and that it could have been so easily prevented.  Does anyone know if the two people who did this received jail time?

Oz Girl, The study was released and presented at the APA convention in 2006 so it is possible she read the study prior to placement.
Youth Care Inc. was placed on probation but was free to take on new clients. After nine months or so, charges against the two counselors were subsequently dismissed. It's Utah, so... how could anyone be surprised at this point?
I am surprised the counselors were not charged, although we dont have all the information.  Many of these deaths come down to proper training and the slowness to react because they think the kids are faking.  So there is no intent to harm the kids is what I am reading from the lack of prosecution on many of these.

I remember my daughter saying it was tough to get people to realize you were really sick because there were so many kids faking it to get out of chores or school.  If you were running a fever or had the flu the kids got to sleep in the nurses office and they would bring you snacks and drinks.  I think this may play into why many of the kids are not taken seriously right away and make take a little longer to realize there is a real issue.
Ah, but the counselors WERE charged; however, those charges were later dismissed. See above article, "Charges against youth counselors in teen's death dismissed," if you don't believe me.

That same article was also published under the following header eleven days later, also by the Deseret News:

    Deseret News
    Judge drops charges against 2 counselors at Draper center
    Published: Sunday, Sept. 28, 2008 12:19 a.m. MDT[/list]
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline Whooter

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    Re: BRENDAN BLUM's death @ Youth care Inc.
    « Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 01:34:59 PM »
    Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
    [quote="Whooter]So there is no intent to harm the kids is what I am reading from the lack of prosecution on many of these.


    No, they just assume they're all druggie brats who are faking and they couldn't care less about them.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

    There were not many kids at ASR that had serious drug problems.  The staff that I had met (and my daughter knew) cared for the kids in their group and many kept in touch long after they graduated.   I think the point was that many of the kids would try real hard to get a day in the nurses office to avoid the rigid schedule of program life.  So if a kid said he had a stomach ache in a program it may be met with a little more skepticism as compared to a kid in your local high-school saying the same thing and therefore the process to validate the problem may require a few more steps or a longer process.

    @ Ursus, what I guess I meant to say was convicted (or served time)



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    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »