Group Therapy increasing Drug Risk?????/

[Troll Control]

unless:
information obtained is recorded in such a manner that human subjects can be identified, directly or through identifiers linked to the subjects

This means how the researcher records the data, not what the subject writes on the form, dingbat.  What's written on the form is the information obtained not the recorded data.  Of course, since you know nothing, you don't know this either.

Interesting how you skipped the whole bit about statistics, too.  You don't even understand basic math and you're going to hold yourself out as an expert on federal regulations regarding human subject research?  

You're the same guy who was saying yesterday that 45 CFR 46 101(b) has nothing to do with "studies."  Everyone's BS detector is going off when you post.

Yeah, the only problem is that you have no idea what you're talking about.  What you posted is for clinical trials, Whooter, and the forms you linked to were for clinical trials.  Behrens did a self-report questionaire, which is vastly different.  You's jus' a ig'nant wretch.  You don't know no better.  :rofl:

Here's the law:

Categories of Research Exempt from Committee Review
45 CFR 46 101(b)
...

2. Surveys/Interviews; Standardized Education Tests; Observation of Public Behavior
Research involving the use of educational tests (cognitive, diagnostic, aptitude, achievement), survey procedures, interview procedures or observation of public behavior.

...

So, despite Whooter's protestations, anybody familiar with human research knows that surveys (e.g. self-report forms) and interviews are exempt from review.  It's "Research 101" and Whooter needs to register for the class.

Two days of embarassing yourself has thankfully come to an end, Whooter.  Your "case" is cooked.

DJ, nice try, but we are talking about studies here (your link doesnt cover that).

Oh, really now?  You're...well...an idiot.  

Of course the federal regulations governing human research studies don't cover human reseach studies.  How absurd!  :agree:

[Whooter]

unless:
information obtained is recorded in such a manner that human subjects can be identified, directly or through identifiers linked to the subjects

This means how the researcher records the data, not what the subject writes on the form, dingbat.  What's written on the form is the information obtained not the recorded data.  Of course, since you know nothing, you don't know this either.

Interesting how you skipped the whole bit about statistics, too.  You don't even understand basic math and you're going to hold yourself out as an expert on federal regulations regarding human subject research?  You're the same guy who was saying yesterday that 45 CFR 46 "has nothing to do with studies."  Everyone's BS detector is going off when you post.

Look, DJ, you have reduced yourself to name calling because you failed to show that the study was exempt from oversight.  The data collection clearly links the childs name to an Identifier (As I presented in the link sample).  This problem needs to be cleared  up before anyone would grant exemption.  You have not proved anything.  In fact the use of the YRS enforces that they did record the childrens names and utilized an identifier.

What we have is a Certificate of approval which states WIRB provides continuous involvement in the study.  We also have links to WIRBs' own process which shows they continue to observe the study.  Everything points to oversight except in your own mind.

If you personally feel the study did not receive oversight that is okay.  But you have not demonstrated this.



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[Troll Control]

I just explained data recording versus information obtained.  Go back and read again if you missed it.  If you did read it, then you're too dumb to understand it and should look for a new hobby.

As far as continuing review...none was done and none claimed by the researcher.

The Certificate of Approval will indicate approval of a consent form.

That's all it means.  Nothing more.  Straight from the WIRB site.  Taake note, this is their policy statement not a sample clinical trial form which has nothing to do with a self-report survey study.  The consent form was approved before the study and the study was never submitted for review.

We also have links to WIRBs' own process which shows they continue to observe the study.

No, we don't.  We have a link to a sample form for a clinical trial from "Google Docs" and not the WIRB website.  You are trying to mislead people by saying this is from the WIRB website.  As stated above the Certificate of Approval, by WIRB policy, is the approval of the consent form.

WIRB Statement of Compliance

Western Institutional Review Board (WIRB) is duly constituted, has written procedures for initial and continuing review of clinical trials; prepares written minutes of convened meetings, and retains records pertaining to the review and approval process; all in compliance with requirements of FDA regulations 21 CFR Parts 50 and 56, HHS regulations 45 CFR 46, and International Conference on Harmonization (ICH) E6, Good Clinical Practice (GCP), as applicable. WIRB is registered with OHRP/FDA; our IRB registration number is IRB00000533, parent organization number is IORG0000432 (effective through September 16, 2012).

"Continuing review" is explicitly stated to be for "clinical trials" and clinical trials only.  Funny what you see when you view the source and not sample forms from Google docs.

[Froderik]

I'm as stoned as an old testament hooker in a synagogue full of rabbis.

[Whooter]

Look, DJ, like I stated the childs name is being recorded along with an identifier which can be traced back to each survey form.  You cannot be exempt if the names are recorded and traceable.  

Here take a look at the regulation again:
Research involving the use of educational tests (cognitive, diagnostic, aptitude, achievement), survey procedures, interview procedures or observation of public behavior, unless:
(i) information obtained is recorded in such a manner that human subjects can be identified, directly or through identifiers linked to the subjects; and (ii) any disclosure of the human subjects' responses outside the research could reasonably place the subjects at risk of criminal or civil liability or be damaging to the subjects' financial standing, employability, or reputation.

The Youth Self Report records the childs name and assigns an identifier.
 YSR Sample

So it can not be exempt by definition.  Thats why WIRB has a determination process which was shown in a earlier post.

They are recording childrens names.  They don’t qualify for an exemption.  I highlighted it on red for you.  If you are observing people or interviewing people without taking their personal information then yes I am sure you could get an exemption from oversight.

Sitting behind your computer and not seeing the recording process there is no way you can tell if the childrens names are being protected... thats why they have a determination process to insure their identity and safety is protected.  You should know this stuff, DJ.



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[Whooter]

The info you were looking for earlier

From WIRBs' website:

The IRB also reviews the consent form (which they did for the Aspen Study)  for the research to make sure that it is accurate. If it approves the research, the IRB continues to review the ongoing research after it starts. (This is called oversight).

So based on WIRBs own practices Standard procedure is that WIRB continues to review the ongoing study after it reviews the consent form and gives them a  "Certificate of approval"



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[DannyB II]

I'm as stoned as an old testament hooker in a synagogue full of rabbis.

maybe a female adulterer at the center of a mosque, with the Talibanny.

[Whooter]

As far as the math issue goes:

The majority of subjects were in programs only six months, that is, pulled early against program protestations.

I didnt see your conclusion that: "the majority of the subjects were in the program only six months" in the body of the study.  I am interested to know how you derived it or this is concluded in the study or not.  

 Here is a quote from the study from Page 6 para. 3:

The study states:
The average length of stay was 8.6 months for those discharged with maximum benefit
and 6.5 months for who were discharged with partial benefit or against program advice. The
majority discharged with program approval: 53% with maximum benefit, 19% prematurely but
with approval, 15% against program advice, 8% needed treatment beyond the scope of the
program, and 3% “other” discharge status.



...

[Troll Control]

Oops!  Whooter got caught quoting Google docs instead of WIRB's policy and now he's angry!  You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar again, buddy.  I can see how upset you are from the big, red typrface.  Just making it big and red doesn't make it true.  

I quoted the WIRB policy and it clearly states that "continuing review" is for "clinical trials" which this study is not.  Now you're going to cry over being snagged again. :cry:   They do not do continuing review for studies that aren't clinical trials, period.

the childs name is being recorded along with an identifier

Really?  How could you know this?  Recording is not obtaining, mind you.  Recording is done by the researcher, not the subject.  You just made that up like most of the things you say.

[Whooter]

Oops!  Whooter got caught quoting Google docs instead of WIRB's policy and now he's angry!  You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar again, buddy.  I can see how upset you are from the big, red typrface.  Just making it big and red doesn't make it true.  

I quoted the WIRB policy and it clearly states that "continuing review" is for "clinical trials" which this study is not.  Now you're going to cry over being snagged again. :cry:   They do not do continuing review for studies that aren't clinical trials, period.

Oh DJ, grow up.  The quote was from WIRBs' website : lol

What is an IRB and what does it have to do with research?

........The IRB also reviews the consent form (which they did for the Aspen Study)  for the research to make sure that it is accurate. If it approves the research, the IRB continues to review the ongoing research after it starts. (This is called oversight).

So based on WIRBs own practices Standard procedure is that WIRB continues to review the ongoing study after it reviews the consent form and gives them a  "Certificate of approval"



...

[Whooter]

the childs name is being recorded along with an identifier

Really?  How could you know this?  Recording is not obtaining, mind you.  Recording is done by the researcher, not the subject.  You just made that up like most of the things you say.

The childs First Name, Middle name and Last name are recorded on the Survey... (Look at the upper left hand box)  then an Identifier is placed in the upper right hand box.
These are not anonymous surveys.  They dont qualify as I explained in the previous post.

YRS Sample

If you feel they were able to get an exemption then that is fine.  But as it stands the surveys do not meet the exemption requirements.



...

[Whooter]

Interesting Tidbit from the study:

An important secondary finding is that very few adolescents decline in functioning over the
course of treatment. This finding is significant when considered in light of research that has
raised the possibility that group-based adolescent treatment can lead to deterioration, in certain
instances. Specifically, some research has found that association with deviant peers in therapy
may increase problematic behaviors, such as externalizing behavior and substance use (Dishion,
McCord, & Poulin, 1999)



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[DannyB II]

Hey Whooter and Dysfunction Junction Get The Fuck Off This Thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Whooter you constantly bitch at others for trashing threads, your doing it now.
Have you got a problem with me now that you have to so throughly disrespect me.
I have asked you twice to move on, start your own thread. Psy has asked.
Guys, please take this to your own thread, nobody else gives a shit anymore.

[Whooter]

Hey Whooter and Dysfunction Junction Get The Fuck Off This Thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Whooter you constantly bitch at others for trashing threads, your doing it now.
Have you got a problem with me now that you have to so throughly disrespect me.
I have asked you twice to move on, start your own thread. Psy has asked.
Guys, please take this to your own thread, nobody else gives a shit anymore.

We tried to move it but Joel covered it in Porn.  I'll move it over again... to Here !!



...

[Whooter]

Whooter, I don't think that anyone who reads the article would miss your point, but to illustrate it more clearly, the article states that those with worse problems- drug addiction, etc. often do benefit from the group therapy, but it is done at the expense of those with lesser problems.

The people with not as bad problems, rub off on those with the larger issues, and the people with the larger issues, rub off on those who don't have that large of issues to begin with...

The picture I get in my head here, is that there is no net loss of bad stuff, but rather it is just redistributed.

In the facility that I went to, there was one heroine addict, one crackhead, about half a dozen coke users, one guy who only smoked pot once, but failed the drug test, his dad had been giving him since he enterred high school, and then there was the majority, pot smokers, who drank on weekends, and had experimented with psychedelics here and there, and then there were also, really young people who I never thought belonged there at all.  These were just people who smoked pot occasionally.


They always said in Daytop, that you don t start your real drug career, until after you leave Daytop, the first time.

I am embarressed to admit this, but in my last week at Daytop, I cut myself.  I had listened to people talking about cutting themselves in group for so long.  They romanticized the shit out of it.  I though that it was stupid as hell.  I remember thinking that they only did it for attention at first.  The more I listenned, it was clearly an addiction.  It was something vey personal that they had for themselves, that Daytop could not take from them.  Hell, Daytop expected that type of shit.

I just remembered this last night.  I tried it.  I cut myself.  This one girl made it sound so fucking seductive, and I did it one day, without knowing what was motivating me to do it.  I know that I was feeling terrible at the time, but I don t think that it is anything that I would have ever done in my life, if I had not been going to these stupid groups.

Paul St. John

PS It is also noteoworthy, that I heard time and time again, that people had come in with very minor drug problems, then developed very strong ones when they left, and came back "ready for treatment"

That is actually a good point.  I could see myself wanting to try something new (when I was younger) if someone described it the way you stated.  I was always up for experimenting at that age (at least to see what it was like).  I think many do and that poses a real risk of making kids worse off than they are.
 
 interesting.



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