"Isolated Incidents"

[Samara]

DB - Again, you are overgeneralizing and addressing me in the same manner you rail against. I guess that is easy to do in this medium. I actually didn't get sucked into conspiracy theories re: Whooter.  In fact, for years, I did not visit the threads and did not get the whole initial brouhaha over Whooter.  Over time and after certain incidences I formed my own opinions. Whether I agree or diagree with programs does not mean I agree with everything posters here say - on either side. My thoughts on programs haven't really evolved over 20 years. They were in stasis for many.  It's only been the last six that I've established my current mind set, due to a confluence of factors including field experience, and other factors.  I'm not going to argue over the development of my opinions. I'm entitled to them.  I haven't delved into old posts re: Whooter so I haven't formulated any conspiracy theories about his fiduciary interests. I do not know or care where he works.  I haven't followed theories of his identity or real name...  It's other things, some subtle, some not so much that caused me to develop my dislike. To say its because he is pro-program does not cover it.  I'm not quite that simplistic, and my feelings for him developed from own thought processes - not from jumping on bandwagons. If that were true, I was very very very late to join that bandwagon. I also don't dismiss him as easily as others. I think he is very effective; we're just not going to agree on his purpose or machinations.  But he would make a fantastic lawyer or politician.

[Samara]

Also, DB, my views are not formulated by the singularity of my program or experience. I am especially familiar with a number of programs, and when I see another that uses the same staff, techniques or basis, it trips my alarm bells.  I feel that you are close minded in the sense that you want to pigeonhole me.

[DannyB II]

DB - Again, you are overgeneralizing and addressing me in the same manner you rail against. I guess that is easy to do in this medium. I actually didn't get sucked into conspiracy theories re: Whooter.  In fact, for years, I did not visit the threads and did not get the whole initial brouhaha over Whooter.  Over time and after certain incidences I formed my own opinions. Whether I agree or diagree with programs does not mean I agree with everything posters here say - on either side. My thoughts on programs haven't really evolved over 20 years. They were in stasis for many.  It's only been the last six that I've established my current mind set, due to a confluence of factors including field experience, and other factors.  I'm not going to argue over the development of my opinions. I'm entitled to them.  I haven't delved into old posts re: Whooter so I haven't formulated any conspiracy theories about his fiduciary interests. I do not know or care where he works.  I haven't followed theories of his identity or real name...  It's other things, some subtle, some not so much that caused me to develop my dislike. To say its because he is pro-program does not cover it.  I'm not quite that simplistic, and my feelings for him developed from own thought processes - not from jumping on bandwagons. If that were true, I was very very very late to join that bandwagon. I also don't dismiss him as easily as others. I think he is very effective; we're just not going to agree on his purpose or machinations.  But he would make a fantastic lawyer or politician.

Ya know you are right, I am starting to rail and rant. So I am going to stop and go back to having congenial conversations with you. Whooter is really not the issue between us, is it??  We have our own differences to debate, now I will say my English Literature classes usually went on without me, so please be patient. Plus when I get excited my words jump all over the place and can be left out, that dyslexia thing I have.
Writing was always very frustrating for me because of my dyslexia, it has gotten much better. Normally I would have a secretary do my writing (typing), I would just use a Dictaphone. So I never paid much attention to grammar.
I am determined to do my own writing here, if it kills me or Anne first....lol.
Anyway off on a tangent there, sorry.
Whooter, one last comment...you could be wrong Samara.

[Samara]

I don't really understand people harping on loose/lose there/their/here/hear etc. anyway. It's just another way to get in a dig after people piss us off.

Lucid writing is always nice, but I'm not going to kill myself over typos or write an academic essay unless I'm getting paid or graded.  

[Whooter]

Some thoughts on the OP:
Isolated incidents do occur, but I think it is a matter of perspective or maybe definition which is the basis for disagreement.

If a child dies of dehydration and it turns out that the staff are poorly trained in general then this would not be an isolated incident, even if this is the first child to die.  The underlying time bomb was ticking.

But if a child dies in wilderness of a bug bite or allergy that went undetected and the staff were properly trained then I would consider this an isolated incident.

I think if we can locate a systemic problem within the system or process which causes (or caused) harm then isolated cases cannot occur within that system.



...

[Antigen]

When I was a kid, back when dinasaurs roamed the set of the Brady Bunch, Art Barker (Blessedly departed Seed founder) actually had the audacity to call us "patients". That's a legally defined term of art so they had to come up with something different. Clients. I was in group at Straight Inc. sometime between `80 and `83 when Staff came in and interrupted rap to instruct us on a few lingo changes behind the then current investigataion. We were no longer patients, we were clients. We weren't going 'home' to foster homes that night, we were going home to 'host homes' ('foster home' was another term of art with legal ramifications.)  

The 'child' is the 'product? Give me a fucking break! The parents' money is a byproduct. The political currency is the real product. The client is just screwed. Welcome to corporate Amerika. Take your place in line and stfu!

[DannyB II]

When I was a kid, back when dinasaurs roamed the set of the Brady Bunch, Art Barker (Blessedly departed Seed founder) actually had the audacity to call us "patients". That's a legally defined term of art so they had to come up with something different. Clients. I was in group at Straight Inc. sometime between `80 and `83 when Staff came in and interrupted rap to instruct us on a few lingo changes behind the then current investigataion. We were no longer patients, we were clients. We weren't going 'home' to foster homes that night, we were going home to 'host homes' ('foster home' was another term of art with legal ramifications.)  

The 'child' is the 'product? Give me a fucking break! The parents' money is a byproduct. The political currency is the real product. The client is just screwed. Welcome to corporate Amerika. Take your place in line and stfu!

Now this is the Antigen we all know and love, Bravo.

[TimScrivener]

This post is an isolated incident.

[DannyB II]

This post is an isolated incident.

Tim how's it going my friend, where have you been. Good to see you back, your wisdom was missed. Don't be a stranger.

[Ursus]

Can we please put an end to using this term?

The things that people write about here, that happened awhile back, may not have been yesterday, but they were certainly not isolated incidents.  They were the norm. Can we all just agree to that?  Sometimes, the incidents were extra bad, like people dying, but even in the cases of the extremes, they were not isolated events. They were events that were bound to happen every so often, under the circumstances created by the programs.

Paul St. John

True words, these...  :notworthy:

[Oz girl]

Ursus and I have discussed and debated this issue in relation to boystown, (see the tti industry thread) To my mind any school or institution that takes is pupils/patients ect against their will and seems to have something to hide so limits the ability to communicate freely with the outside world or has rules that by basic community standards would be considered unreasonable should be viewed suspiciously. Usually if there is some reason to hide things it is because nothing good is happening.
I would argue that the response to the "isolated incident" is important. It is rare but occasionally at normal schools tragedies occur within the context of sports games etc. Usually the kid is rushed to hospital immediately. it is only within this industry that i have ever heard of any time being given to debating or "monotoring" the validity of the kid's complaint. I am actually surprised that more kids are not injured by this industry which is why i think it is less about looking at "death counts" as such and more about the general practices of a place. For instance i don't know of any kid who died in "the ring" at Elan but i still find it staggering that this practice existed till 2000.

[Ursus]

For instance i don't know of any kid who died in "the ring" at Elan but i still find it staggering that this practice existed till 2000.

Fwiw, emphasis added:

Originally posted on 16 Jun 2007 07:04:

Hello,my name is Jim. I stopped posting here awhile back for obvious reasons. I just wanted to let you know that when I was in Elan nobody was notified when a ring event happened. I witnessed my friend Phil Williams' death as a result of a brain aneurysm immediately following one of these "rings'. It was very disturbing. He didn't even have parents to call. Actually that is only partly true,but I don't think the state prison takes calls from Elan. I don't know when they started calling parents to approve rings. It seems crazy that parents would approve such actions against their own children.

Hi Jim, I think that was probably my question re. parental notification when a Ring is to be held... I am very sorry about your friend Phil; I was appalled to learn of his death.  I can't believe Elan did not have the shit sued out of it in the aftermath of that.  Yes, a brain aneurysm or burst can happen after "boxing trauma."

[Oz girl]

It turns out there is a facebook entry where a guy describes this incident. (see below) It is unbelievable that charges were not laid. It seems they took a sick kid and belted him till they finished him off.  Unfortunately it seems the boy was a ward of the state. I guess the poor kid did not have many chances in life :heartbreak:

2nd Post by Dave

Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply, not online that much anymore.
The incident I'm reffering to happened during the Christmas holidays in 1982. The resident who died was Phil Williams, a 16 year old from the state of Maine. Unfortunatly, Phil was a ward of the state, because his father was in jail for killing his mother. Phil was a Coordinator Trainee, and started complaining of having headaches. The staff felt that he was malingering, and doin this just so he didn't have to deal with the book (ie. give haircuts). This esculated to the point where he was GM'd and put in the ring for reacting during GM.(for those that thought the ring was only used for people who were violent, think again)After going 3 rounds, I think, hard to remember after over 20 years, Phil went unconscious and started vomitting profusely. After laying on the floor for around an hour,The "Staff" decided he should be brought to hospital. As for who these staff were, I'm sorry, but I cannot remember. It was a weekend and the regular house staff were not there, that much I remember. For what Director, there 'prolly wasn't one there.It was common practice that GM and Rings to be held with just whatever staff was on duty, no director required.
The following Monday, that hack of a nurse they had, came in to tell the house that what Phil died from was an enbolism and that he 'prolly would have died anyways, regardless of the ring (pretty convienent for Elan, I imagine)
Myself, 2 other residents and a staff member did go to his funeral. I'm glad Elan showed this amount of respect.
As for an investigation, I doubt there even was one. Noone ever came to house in an official capacity and asked questions of the residents. This is most likely due to he had no family to push the issue.
I would like to think that if Phil had recieved proper madical treatment prior to being in the ring, maybe he would have been ok. But this is something I'll never know.Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry[/quot

[justonemore]

Sing along here... Just another isolated incident, just another isolated incident'  not hardly. I've worked safety and security for a long time, in many different venue. Bad things happen when people cut corners. People cut corners when they are A) opportunists and B) think no one is looking.
Here are the models i work with,  models that have never failed me. First is the Fire Triangle ... Imagine a triangle.. at one point put heat,  another point oxygen, the third point combustible material. if the proportions are correct, YOU WILL HAVE A FIRE.. alter the proportions of any and... No fire.
Second Model The Crime Triangle    at one point put Incentive, at the second point put Opportunity, at the third, Frustration. If the proper proportion exists YOU WILL HAVE A CRIME... alter the proportions, no crime.
Programs are a perfect environment, in that you have a population of frustrated opportunists (staff), presented with near unlimited possibilities (vulnerable kids) The incentive is for the opportunists to relieve their frustration by victimizing the kids. The same principle works on construction sites, If no one is specifically charged with safety, YOU WILL HAVE INJURY.
I don't buy the "another isolated incident" rap. Many of the kids 'in program' are a crime in progress. Shall we address them with a greater, more profitable, more socially acceptable crime in progress?
J.O.M. ::unhappy::