Author Topic: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)  (Read 7224 times)

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Offline Awake

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2010, 01:20:12 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote
Whooter wrote:
No, I meant that the program will not harm the child while the child is there.  I don’t see how the behavior modification could harm the child after they leave the program.
 
Anne wrote:
Therein lies one of your problems.

Awake wrote:
Definitely potential for harm, inside, outside, both.  There is plenty of reason to connect the Troubled teen industry with psychological trauma.
 
Whooter wrote:
Well, I partially agree with you.  I think there is potential for harm "anytime" a child is overseen by others outside the family.  This includes daycare, public/private schools and programs.  I think like Anne Bonney, your vantage point stems from experiences you had with programs 30 years ago or isolated cases.  The majority of the programs I am familiar with work directly to reverse any potential issues which would result in long term or short term damage not cause them.

Awake wrote:
So you are saying that troubled teen industry programs take action to protect the teen  from double bind situations, which is the context under which they operate?  I’d really like to hear how you believe they are doing that.  Neither you on the TTI can deny that double binds have the potential for psychological harm, or that the therapy provided, at it’s core, functions as a result of double binding.
It’s all here for your understanding,  but if you want to cast it off as inconsequential ….

Hey Whooter, I demand that you feel better about yourself.  Grow your self esteem, buddy!  

DOUBLE BIND: Mind Control in the TTI  


Here we have 3 people, 2 of the people went to a treatment program and 1 had a child go to a treatment program. The 2 that went obviously did not have a good experience which was/is not unusual, also what I am seeing through out there posts is 1) that they can not accept that someone else
could have a good experience, 2) that they will find whatever evidence there is to substantiate their feelings, 3) that just because the programee did not like their stay at the TC does this always have to necessarily mean they did not receive a decent education, academically and/or therapeutically.
This broad brush painting is robbing fornits of valuable debate and leaving the tenants here ignorant. I know personally several folks who have come here to try and share their experience and read many posts, determined this site does not encourage open debate, so left. Not good folks.
Now I'm sure anyone reading this is probably thinking that I have no room to judge, your right in some respects. But I have never shut anyone down here from saying what they have had to say, I have actually always promoted different opinions, we need them.
Keep your mind open.....There are children dying that need help, their experiences may be different from ours before, during and after. We need to listen and go further then are experiences allow.
This is what makes me angry, I see folks here that appear so intelligent yet can be so ignorant when it comes to understanding separate living experiences. You call the TCI a "cookie cutter" experience, stamping out the same experience but your wrong, wrong because of the participants, their human beings.
You (fornits) are doing the exact same thing, trying to promote a universal experience (cookie cutter) by saying all the the programs in the TCI are destructive. Children are dying they need help.

Awake I know you have found the Double Bind Phenomenon and this is a great piece of info yet does it apply in all TC's without exception. I found at Elan it really depended on the Director and staff, this could change found house to house, at least while I was a employee.

danny



I’ll answer with a recently discussed topic in relation to the practices of the Troubled Teen Industry. Does a doctor operate before they practice?  If we know we have not yet defined the context under which we are operating, why are we allowing it to practice. The Double Bind in the troubled teen industry is a uniquely real context . I firmly believe we should have a clear understanding of it before we accept using it on our kids.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0

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Offline Whooter

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2010, 09:38:04 AM »
Quote from: "Awake"



I’ll answer with a recently discussed topic in relation to the practices of the Troubled Teen Industry. Does a doctor operate before they practice?  If we know we have not yet defined the context under which we are operating, why are we allowing it to practice. The Double Bind in the troubled teen industry is a uniquely real context . I firmly believe we should have a clear understanding of it before we accept using it on our kids.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0

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The more I read here the more it becomes apparent that each program is different.  I haven’t seen the double bind built into any program.  I think I have heard people from elan speak out and agree it was part of their experience or programs from the past, but no one else.  Personally I have not seen it.  I remember many people in my past who use to send conflicting messages, but not entire institutions.

Programs do have a very defined program under which they operate.  Just because they don’t make it public doesn’t mean it doesnt exist.  Each program is competing to see who can attain the highest success rate so they are not going to share the process or nuances of their model with competitors.

I think the whole discussion of the double Bind is interesting but I would be careful in trying to  assume it is used across the board.



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Offline DannyB II

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Re: MY Opinion
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 04:10:12 PM »
Quote from: "Paul St. John"
I am totally open to considering that there might be some kinds of voluntary programs out there, that can be beneficial to teens.

Why not?  There are all sorts of things in the world.

But I say that a TC is a TC.  Some may be better then others, but they are flawed by their very design.

Paul

Paul I find that to be a rather large assumption. Who here has visited every TC. I visited a TC just last Thursday 6/17/10, and I know personally they are not using a Double Bind method, I also know of others that are not using that method either.
Now you can have manipulative staff that like playing these games, I just don't believe on the whole it is happening every where.
Awake says it is inherent well I'm sure it might have been for her, I also spoke of the method being used in Elan but I also said, that I felt it was isolated and not widespread.

danny
 

danny
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 07:53:05 PM by DannyB II »
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Offline Dr. Acula

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nothing
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 06:37:23 PM »
:rasta:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:43:04 AM by Dr. Acula »

Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2010, 08:21:27 PM »
Really Danny? Which one was that? Or are you just making shit up again?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline DannyB II

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2010, 10:06:14 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Really Danny? Which one was that? Or are you just making shit up again?


Pile I have never made anything up nor lied ever on this site. So please young man stop acting like you can come close to busting my balls.
 
Who do you think I am Pile, ya I'm just going to pony up that information. So you can slander the program and myself. No I don't think so. If you do not like me being ambiguous then don't read my posts.
I have always been honest with my affiliations with TC's and will continue to have them, I have many acquaintances in the TCI, jails, prisons, homeless shelters and missions. I am 51 yrs old and have been involved for close to 40 years in one form or another.
 
Pile you have read my story, I came off the streets of Boston and Providence, dope fiend, criminal and in and out of one institution after another since I was 12 yrs. old. I am not like you, I don't have a problem saying these programs saved my life because they did. If I had stayed in juvie or on the streets I would not be here today, for sure. I learned the game I had to play early in Daytop and Marathon House, so by the time I ended up in Elan for 18 months, I had it down. I call it survival.
 
Well guess what there are many folks still out there exactly like me and worse, I try and work with them, along with others we try and keep them alive long enough to stay alive. Know what I mean bro. So stop fucking with me and try helping.

Last comment here, just because the TC's kept me alive, doesn't mean that was there intent. I know this all to well. I also will not be involved with sending someone to a place like Elan, Straight, Cedu, Seed or any other TC that is abusing kids. We are a group of individuals who are EX-TC residents that lend are support. If you really want to make a change, then get in the trenches and literally try and save a life.
Not say'in your not doing that know, just say'in.

danny
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Offline Awake

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2010, 12:26:06 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"



I’ll answer with a recently discussed topic in relation to the practices of the Troubled Teen Industry. Does a doctor operate before they practice?  If we know we have not yet defined the context under which we are operating, why are we allowing it to practice. The Double Bind in the troubled teen industry is a uniquely real context . I firmly believe we should have a clear understanding of it before we accept using it on our kids.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0

.

The more I read here the more it becomes apparent that each program is different.  I haven’t seen the double bind built into any program.  I think I have heard people from elan speak out and agree it was part of their experience or programs from the past, but no one else.  Personally I have not seen it.  I remember many people in my past who use to send conflicting messages, but not entire institutions.

Programs do have a very defined program under which they operate.  Just because they don’t make it public doesn’t mean it doesnt exist.  Each program is competing to see who can attain the highest success rate so they are not going to share the process or nuances of their model with competitors.

I think the whole discussion of the double Bind is interesting but I would be careful in trying to  assume it is used across the board.



...


The double bind doesn’t have to be defined in the troubled teen industry as ‘used’ or ‘built in’ with a focus on implicating the true intent of the staff or those running it.  Although it is my feeling that double binds were consciously used by many at Cedu, the double bind represents an interactional context.  The troubled teen industry, and the TC model represents an overall context for the double bind. At this point there is very common model being used.  I’m not going to pretend I know every program, if you can identify a program that is exempt from containing the ingredients for double binding I’m all ears believe me, they should be rewarded for transcending the current model.  but if there were a program that functioned outside a double bind context it would truly be a departure from the overall TTI model, and that is why we must apply this analyses to them as a group.


Take a look at the table of contents in these books. You’ll notice these are some recent publications from 2003 and 04.
 
THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITY: A Practice Guide.  Fernando P. Perfas
 http://www.amazon.com/Therapeutic-Commu ... 0595280439

THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITY: A Social Systems Perspective.
http://www.amazon.com/Therapeutic-Commu ... 0595321313

Just look over the contents for a moment. I have these books and I can tell you there are quite a few things about the suggested TC model that are questionable. First of all there is a clear statement that at the ‘very heart’ of the TC is the social system. Perfas emphasizes that peoples roles, and the meaning of their interactions are the result of the power of the community and its’ system. So I can clearly tell that there is an important focus on systems theory as the basis for the TC model, and there is plenty of clues indicate that TC’s have adopted their thinking directly from the individuals responsible for Double Bind Theory, family therapy theory, family systems theory, and their large contribution to intervention approaches.  Perfas has recognized the TC as being a system that is ‘more than the sum of it’s parts’, a phrasing very common in Double Bind literature and systems theory.  Other references to the work of the double bind group are the terms family therapy, family intervention, input, output, feedback, interface.  

To be perfectly frank I found his books to be suspiciously absent of any real theory, and had minimal references to important figures in the development of systems explanations for human behavior and interaction. I believe the only reference to someone with a theoretical background in cybernetics and systems theory was Maturana, which doesn’t say much for me when I read a book that is specifically focused on a systems explanation for TC’s. In systems theory, cybernetics, systems psychology you will unquestionably find that Gregory Bateson is by far the most influential person in that area. Not once mentioning Gregory Bateson is a huge oversight in clarifying a systems perspective on TC’s.  Although he does say near the end of the book that it does not presume to explain the TC social system completely,  who he has decided to focus on is quite narrow in defining where the social systems perspective comes from.  In light of this, the Double Bind is a glaring oversight in the TC’s evaluation of itself.

Now, aside from a shallow take on systems theory in TC’s, Perfas is offering a variety of general techniques and approaches to working a TC.  The methodology presented can be clearly compared with what has been written on the double bind. For instance, on pg. 41 he describes the use of cognitive dissonance producing methods to heighten the clients internal stress in order to breakdown resistance to change.  

On pg. 38 it describes the TC’s approach to intake.  He says clients end up in treatment as the result of ‘driving forces, some of them beyond their control.’ And even the rare ‘voluntary’ member is typically there because of social pressures. This being the case, his answer to this is to suggest an intake process of gaining rapport, eliciting information from the client (with intent to use it later for motivating change with cognitive dissonance), and gaining small, incremental agreements from them.

In discussing a certain stage in therapy, he calls ‘the probe’ stage the one where heightened self disclosure is required and there a main focus on getting the clients to reveal ‘psycho sexual’ issues.  They are encouraged to talk about their sexuality and sexual experiences and tie them to their self concept and drug issues.  If this were the TC practice guide from my day this would certainly explain the inappropriate (to say the least) sexual conversations the staff seemed so eager to get into.


There is too much to go on about when it comes to the potential for double binding here. There are a lot of manipulative techniques. All in all the TC model Perfas is showing looks very much the same as when it started in Synanon and Daytop.  Marathon Groups, Encounter Groups, Haircuts, peer confrontation group, privileges, hierarchy, ‘act as if’, attack therapy, gestalt theory, humanistic psychiatry. But really, what needs to be discussed is that the double bind has a clear place in the structure of the TC’ model, and the troubled teen industry.  As of yet there have been no efforts to understand the role it plays.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0  

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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2010, 12:39:42 AM »
I remember words being used like "accountability", "responsibility", "initiative", "growth", etc...

and that's exactly how they were used.. was like a game. The words were like inanimate objects.  They didn t mean anything.  They weren t connected to any full understanding of things.  It's like they were raised above reality.

In regards to anything one could say. " Where is your accountability?" or "Where is your growth?", and it didn t mean anything...

and yet at the same time time, it meant only one thing.. " You are wrong. Tell us what we want to hear."

Paul
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2010, 12:46:01 AM »
The overall message I always got from that place(Daytop) was..

" The only way to be good, is to accept that you are bad."

Paul
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Offline Awake

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 10:24:04 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
No, I meant that the program will not harm the child while the child is there.  I don’t see how the behavior modification could harm the child after they leave the program.


Therein lies one of your problems.


Definitely potential for harm, inside, outside, both.  There is plenty of reason to connect the Troubled teen industry with psychological trauma.


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0  



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Well, I partially agree with you.  I think there is potential for harm "anytime" a child is overseen by others outside the family.  This includes daycare, public/private schools and programs.  I think like Anne Bonney, your vantage point stems from experiences you had with programs 30 years ago or isolated cases.  The majority of the programs I am familiar with work directly to reverse any potential issues which would result in long term or short term damage not cause them.



...



So you are saying that troubled teen industry programs take action to protect the teen  from double bind situations, which is the context under which they operate?  I’d really like to hear how you believe they are doing that.  Neither you on the TTI can deny that double binds have the potential for psychological harm, or that the therapy provided, at it’s core, functions as a result of double binding.

It’s all here for your understanding,  but if you want to cast it off as inconsequential ….

Hey Whooter, I demand that you feel better about yourself.  Grow your self esteem, buddy!

DOUBLE BIND: Mind Control in the TTI  


.


Just checking on your progress Whooter, are you feeling better about yourself yet?

Double Bind: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0



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Offline Whooter

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2010, 11:04:46 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"


Just checking on your progress Whooter, are you feeling better about yourself yet?

Double Bind: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0



.
Thanks awake, my self esteem seems to be improving.  I had a pretty good day, just hoping tomorrow is a little better.



...
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Offline Awake

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Re: "Multi-Center Study of Youth Outcomes" (Behrens, 2006)
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2010, 11:30:02 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


Just checking on your progress Whooter, are you feeling better about yourself yet?

Double Bind: Mind Control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=0



.
Thanks awake, my self esteem seems to be improving.  I had a pretty good day, just hoping tomorrow is a little better.



...


No, thank you. It's nice to have your recommendation. Tomorrow let's work on developing better friendships around here, ok?


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Offline Awake

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2010, 01:07:51 AM »
So far I am reporting a success rate of 100%.  The double bind is proving to have successful treatment results.
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Offline Awake

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2010, 09:39:45 PM »
(Transcript of therapy: A participant study)  

Awake: Hey Whooter, I demand that you feel better about yourself. Grow your self esteem, buddy!

Awake: Just checking on your progress Whooter, are you feeling better about yourself yet?

Whooter: Thanks awake, my self esteem seems to be improving. I had a pretty good day, just hoping tomorrow is a little better.


Awake: No, thank you. It's nice to have your recommendation. Tomorrow let's work on developing better friendships around here, ok?

…… end ….

So, it’s a new day Whooter.  Tell me what’s  been going on. Have you been working on yourself?


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Offline Whooter

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Re: Troubled Teen Industry Studies
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2010, 10:10:18 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"

So, it’s a new day Whooter.  Tell me what’s  been going on. Have you been working on yourself?


.

Yes I have, thank you,I had a good day and managed not to get into any arguments with Ursus.  He didn’t seem cranky today and we spent the day posting in different areas for the most part. He was busy, as usual, with his cut-and-paste activities and documentation.   No name calling and my post count was on target or a little higher with 3 posts (4 counting this one) compared to an average of 2.6 per day so I am feeling good about myself.  I had a few trolls on my tail but that is to be expected.  All and all I managed to keep the day in perspective.



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