Author Topic: does residential really help and which one is good  (Read 12144 times)

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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2010, 05:45:37 PM »
Ah, and it's the resident non-sequitur champion. We're talking about programs, Whooter, not public school or McDonald's or anything else you might decide to bring up that has random bad things happen with no particular pattern. Try to keep up.

And of course you don't want to discuss specific programs. Why? 'Cause then somebody might post a relevant link to the details of said program, showing what goes on in there! Or relevant links detailing the exploits of the people who worked there since it's just a rework of a program we've seen before. All that referral money, right out the window, and if anyone Googles they'll have a good chance of finding the topic- and then the program has to change its name yet again...

Whooter. Seriously. Saying that you don't want something talked about in public is transparent as fuck.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2010, 06:20:23 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Ah, and it's the resident non-sequitur champion. We're talking about programs, Whooter, not public school or McDonald's or anything else you might decide to bring up that has random bad things happen with no particular pattern. Try to keep up.

And of course you don't want to discuss specific programs. Why? 'Cause then somebody might post a relevant link to the details of said program, showing what goes on in there! Or relevant links detailing the exploits of the people who worked there since it's just a rework of a program we've seen before. All that referral money, right out the window, and if anyone Googles they'll have a good chance of finding the topic- and then the program has to change its name yet again...

Whooter. Seriously. Saying that you don't want something talked about in public is transparent as fuck.


awwwww,I am sorry, Did I hurt your feelings?  Why not go count your pile of kids again while we discuss.  I think you will feel better.



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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2010, 07:36:06 PM »
"Pile of Dead Kids" may have come on a bit strong, but I see his/her ( I think, his) point.

Why is the solution to send kids away?  You get a headache, you take an aspirin.  Your kid has problems, you send them away.

I honestly, cannot see how a wilderness camp ACTUALLY helped a 12 year old.  If you really came here, looking for advice.  here  is  mine.

Don't give up so easily on your kid or your self.  Your child  is not a problem to be solved.  Why do so many parents give up so easily, as if raising their own kids is not their own responsibility.  My advice is stay in there, stay strong, stick with your child.  Do your best, and don t expect it to be easy.  get help and guidance from everyone you can who seems to do well with their own kids.

When you send a kid away, you are giving up on them, and you are telling them that there is something wrong with them, and that they are not like other kids.... and then that s just the beginning... then the program fucks with them.

Paul
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Offline Whooter

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2010, 08:36:59 PM »
Interesting perspective Paul.  Personally I haven’t met any parent who has given up on their kids or thrown in the towel on parenting.  I dont see sending a child to a program as giving up on them.  It is actually the opposite.  When a child is sent to a program it is typically the final step or last resort after all other possibilities have been tried and/or exhausted.
Like you said you don’t send your kid away for a headache, you give them an aspirin.  If the headache continues the next day you may keep them home from school and rest.. monitor their temperature.  You may then seek advice outside the home if the pain continues and take them to see a doctor.  But the hospital doesn’t view  you as a parent who gave up parenting because you looked outside the home for help.  They view you as caring parent.  The parent that tries everything and then doesn’t seek help outside the home is the one who is giving up.  If that same child needed to have surgery and spend time in a hospital the parents would not be made to feel they failed as parents because someone else is caring for their child.  They would not feel like they gave up.
Parents should always continue to try to seek help for their child and not be ashamed to look outside the home.  This includes "all" children not just those children who are at-risk.



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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2010, 09:04:15 PM »
Whooter, I personally do no know of any good programs.  I know of a lot of very bad ones though.

I think that people who send their kids away are giving up on them.   and they are giving up on themselves.  It is the easy solution.  Throw the kid in the air and hope they land on their feet.  I give this woman credit for at least investigating first, it shows me that she cares.. that is why I gave her my advice.



II think it is a quick fix like an aspirin, except that it is a quick fix that does not work.

Paul
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Offline Whooter

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2010, 09:45:27 PM »
Quote from: "Paul St. John"
Whooter, I personally do no know of any good programs.  I know of a lot of very bad ones though.

I think that is why you have the views that you do.  I think if I only knew of kids who failed in programs or did not do well I would have a negative view myself.   So I can understand your perspective.

Quote
I think that people who send their kids away are giving up on them.   and they are giving up on themselves.  It is the easy solution.  Throw the kid in the air and hope they land on their feet.  I give this woman credit for at least investigating first, it shows me that she cares.. that is why I gave her my advice.
II think it is a quick fix like an aspirin, except that it is a quick fix that does not work. Paul

Thats okay, Paul, you have seen alot of bad programs and therfore view them as failures.  I have seen families struggle and exhaust all local options before trying a residential solution and then see their children do very well and head down a healthy path.  A lot of what we believe in or don't believe depends on our individual experiences and exposure to others.  So I dont knock you for your opinion since you have only been exposed to bad programs.

Imagine for a moment the religious groups or society who do not believe in doctors or medicine at all (not just Therapy) and one of them has a sick child and decides to break away from the group and seek help outside their community and see a doctor.  They are judged just like you are judging others and saying they are giving up.  They do this because they have not seen first hand how doctors can help people.  They rely on very one sided information like you have to reach their conclusions.




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Offline SUCK IT

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2010, 12:14:27 AM »
does residential really help and which one is good

Yes it really helps, and almost every one is good. The programs people talk about on fornits are almost all out of business for many years. The average poster on fornits was in treatment 25 years ago. Treatment programs have evolved and now there are options to satisfy the needs of all parents. There's only a handful of posters here, and go ahead and ask them what year they were 'abused' and how exactly they were 'abused', the rest is just scare tactics. 99.99% of kids who went through treatment are doing great, the 00.01% that do not do well end up posting here. But even some of them end up doing well, for example Manne Bonney lives a life of fun and sun, beaches and boating.
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one day at a time

Offline Oscar

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2010, 12:47:15 AM »
Here in Denmark all treatment are paid by the tax-payers, even religious rehab program have been public financed until journalists digged into their methods. Sad to say here in Denmark a rehab facility can be started by everyone without any demand to the quality. The law demands that an addict can get treatment for free and choose whatever rehab program they like and then they can go down with the bill to the nearest social service department and get a refund. Of course this have made the employees in various social service department phoning the nearest journalist when they suspect faul play so we can get good stories and criminal cases as entertainment. We all know that both the patient and the taxpayers will pay if some is not doing their job good enough.

Recently the number of residental places for minors have dropped. As it is the case in the States we have a crisis and this have lead to a huge research if it can be done as good with home based services as with residential services. The answer is that only 5% of the minors being placed in residential treatment years ago needs residential treatment if you provide homebased treatment instead.

Is it cheaper with homebased treatment? Yes, it is.

Start calculate a little. Take a typical high school. How many do end up in various residential programs? What is the summarized costs for all the students? What if the school saw to that all these parents met and they could hire a number of social workers combined with volunteers to aid them?

Here you can hire 1-2 people with the qualifications of an ordinary staffer for the money it cost to have just one kid in residential treatment. What is the monthly pay for one counselor in the States? Is it cheaper than the 300-400 dollars per day it costs to have a minor in a wilderness program? Could 5-10 families with aid from the school administration create their own wilderness program where they go out in the fields for a week or two with counselors?

As I see it the biggest problem in the state is that each family sees their own case as an isolated case. Having a so-called troubled kid is tabu. The neighbor could have the same problem and they don't know.

We have decided to talk openly about it and it has become a kind of rite of passage for parents to teenagers that they should join the night owls and walk the streets where teens party to hand out condoms, place themselves between youth who wants to fight, look the drug dealers angry in the eyes as a group and send the youth home by taxi or phone the parents when an youth have too much to drink. Parents in Denmark know that they are not the only one who is challenged, so why not join forces?

However, residential treatment can be an option if you have no adults in the home who wants to be the parent. Maybe they want to but can't. In such cases the teenager must be placed in a better home and it can be foster parents or a boarding school.
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Offline Oscar

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2010, 12:48:39 AM »
As for handing out condoms: It works. We had 927 teenage pregnancies out of a population of 5,000,000 people.
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Offline Oz girl

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2010, 01:25:19 AM »
Try reading Judith Herman's Trauma and recovery It is the semina text on trauma
also perry's The Boy who was raised as a dog
also Child abuse trauma by John Briere
Children recovering from trauma often have trouble verbalizing their feelings. So they act them out. Further rejection or percieved rejection (like going to live somewhere else) makes things worse for them. Often a further problem for trauma victims of all ages is that therapy can be a 2 edged sword. Often adults who seek out trauma therapy voluntarily experience a temporary backward slide if dealing with other issues like anger management or addiction because revisiting the trauma is very stressful for them. A confronting approach makes things really bad. A very skilled therapist is needed. With this in mind it is even more difficult for the reluctant patient.
 Be aware that the europa emphasises group therapy and most trauma victims struggle with 1 on 1 therapy, so find a group situation worse. Also be aware the families are asked to participate in an Arbinger seminar. This is run by a separate corporate organization. It beleives in "confronting self deception" I dont know what this means but trauma victims do not like confrontation. For this to happen publically at a seminar is a terrible idea.
Finally ask the "master level therapists" if they have read Briere, Herman or Perry. Ask what they know of the child trauma institute. If they dont know much this is a bad sign. If they do ask why they have compulsory group therapy or how an addictions model applies to the traumatized child. They should know that it doesnt.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline DannyB II

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2010, 09:15:16 AM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Quote from: "walkedthere"
I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.

Would those condemnations happen to include verified relationships between its founders and programs that have been shut down for abuse, links to lengthy testimonies of abuse on this very site about said programs, dead kids as the result of said programs (Guaranteed 100% Certified DEAD!), or a combination of all three?

No just another comment in a long line of comments coming from a jaded young kid needing to play his role. Your doing a great job, "Sean Hannity" would be proud for your ability to sell. Left wing nut.
Don't bother pointing out the obvious, I know. Just Sean does such a great job of selling and you remind me of him.

Danny
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2010, 01:15:31 PM »
Quote from: "SUCK IT"
does residential really help and which one is good

Yes it really helps, and almost every one is good. The programs people talk about on fornits are almost all out of business for many years. The average poster on fornits was in treatment 25 years ago. Treatment programs have evolved and now there are options to satisfy the needs of all parents. There's only a handful of posters here, and go ahead and ask them what year they were 'abused' and how exactly they were 'abused', the rest is just scare tactics. 99.99% of kids who went through treatment are doing great, the 00.01% that do not do well end up posting here. But even some of them end up doing well, for example Manne Bonney lives a life of fun and sun, beaches and boating.


Don't listen to this person.. be safe.  I don t know about all these new programs. Are there good ones I don t know.. But this post is not realistic in any way, and it can lead you to believe that all programs are great.  This isn't true.

yes, many of the programs have evolved.  They have no choice.  Society would not put up with their bullshit anymore. These programs, which have evolved however, are still based on the same foundational principles, which means that even though they may not be so overtly damaging, they don t work and will waste your time.

It is true, that unless you put your kid in a program in some other country, the danger is far less then once it was, and there  is very little chance that your daughter will experience anything like what is in most posts on this thread, but still, if you love yyour kid caution is advisable.

Something to take into account that people do not very often, is this:

These older programs- they were in a time period where what is considered domestic abuse today, was once considered discpline.  Kids actually walked to school back then, and climbed trees, and fought eachother, rather then go on play dates, and fight in video games.

In no way whatsoever, am I trying to take away from what people experiecned 25 years ago, but I will say, that they were better prepared for it.

Your kid, most kids today, would lose their fucking minds in a day at one of these old centers... but these ne places though not as harsh can still be harmful to them.

This poster attempting to set you at ease, and make you think that everyone here are the only people who had trouble in programs, neglects to mention all the people who are dead or in jail.

I know of young people who have went to programs in my area, very recently with no results.  They just would have been better off not going.

Paul

PS  My knowledge is very limited on brand new programs, as in recently made from the ground floor up.
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Offline AuntieEm2

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2010, 07:03:31 PM »
My niece attended a wilderness program and therapeutic boarding school 2006-2009--very "reputable" big-name programs which we were told were "the best." They did nothing to help her with her learning disabilities, and created an unusually dependent young woman who relies on her parents for every dime and nearly every decision.

Coming home was always presented as being just around the corner--this spring, well maybe this summer, no wait, maybe October, oh well she's having anger issues, maybe in the spring--and on and on and on and on and on. In the end, she was kept from ALL of her family except parents, including siblings, for more than 3 years. No letters, phone calls or visits. She was not even permitted to come home for the funeral of a family member she adored.

The experience ripped our family apart. The years of threats and accusations and resentments by her parents toward anyone who questioned them will not likely ever be repaired.

There's no "used to be bad" about these programs. They are abusive by their very design. The State of Oregon agrees with me: in October they found that program methods at Mount Bachelor Academy met the Oregon definition of "child abuse"--methods used widely in programs across the country--and they shut the program down.

Don't be a fool. Parents and teens can and do survive the teen years together, at home, all the time. Repeat: You can and will survive this if you stick together as a family. Do not let a program rush you into a decision by stoking your fears.
 
Auntie Em
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Offline Whooter

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 07:50:59 PM »
Quote from: "AuntieEm2"
My niece attended a wilderness program and therapeutic boarding school 2006-2009--very "reputable" big-name programs which we were told were "the best." They did nothing to help her with her learning disabilities, and created an unusually dependent young woman who relies on her parents for every dime and nearly every decision.

Coming home was always presented as being just around the corner--this spring, well maybe this summer, no wait, maybe October, oh well she's having anger issues, maybe in the spring--and on and on and on and on and on. In the end, she was kept from ALL of her family except parents, including siblings, for more than 3 years. No letters, phone calls or visits. She was not even permitted to come home for the funeral of a family member she adored.

The experience ripped our family apart. The years of threats and accusations and resentments by her parents toward anyone who questioned them will not likely ever be repaired.

There's no "used to be bad" about these programs. They are abusive by their very design. The State of Oregon agrees with me: in October they found that program methods at Mount Bachelor Academy met the Oregon definition of "child abuse"--methods used widely in programs across the country--and they shut the program down.

Don't be a fool. Parents and teens can and do survive the teen years together, at home, all the time. Repeat: You can and will survive this if you stick together as a family. Do not let a program rush you into a decision by stoking your fears.
 
Auntie Em


Thanks auntiEm2, There are stories like yours and it is unfortunate.  But we cannot forget the 10’s of thousands of kids who are helped every year and placed back on a healthy path.  Those who attend Therapeutic Boarding Schools which are geared towards building self esteem.  They can tell tell you up front what to expect as far as length of time the child is expected to stay.

What helps to prevent a child from being placed in a program which is not a good fit is to contact the program and ask to speak with parents who have had kids graduate from the program.  This will allow you to ask some really tough questions and get some honest answers.

Another thing which would help is if the programs were required to get a third party sign-off on all kids entering the program.



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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: does residential really help and which one is good
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2010, 09:05:53 PM »
Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants.  I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily.  I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?

What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?

Paul
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