IBM's new foretelling software to be used by Florida DOC

[Oscar]

Florida to Punish Kids for Crimes They Haven't Committed Yet, criminaljustice.change.org, April 21, 2010

In Denmark we have preventive arrests. They are used every weekend against soccerfans who in general come from certain social groups.

People are arrested and detained preventive for up to 12 hours before they are released without charges (extended from 6 hours as part of the state of emergency laws in relationship with COP15 and not cancelled once the COP15 was over).

The police and our department of justice justify this method based on previous behavior of this social group before preventive arrests were possible. People are so to say born into being a risk for the society in the eyes of the police. Needless to say that this approach are met with a lot of criticism.

I don't know how IBM's software works. What I can read is that they want to detain people in programs based on possible events in the future.

It seems to be based on the same idea as preventive arrest is, but where people are released within 12 hours in Denmark, the consequences are so much harder on juveniles in Florida.

What do you say?

[Ursus]

change.org
C R I M  I N A L · J U S T I C E

Florida to Punish Kids for Crimes They Haven't Committed Yet
by Matt Kelley | April 21, 2010  | 09:22 AM (PT)
Topics: Juvenile Justice, Sentencing



I knew it was easy to get locked up in Florida. Apparently, you can get punished in the state before committing a crime, too.

An extremely troubling new partnership between the Florida Department of Corrections and IBM wants to use software to predict which juveniles will commit crimes in the future, so "the best course of treatment" can be chosen. Hey, why wait for juveniles to commit crimes, if we can start their "rehabilitation" now?

The Florida DOC says that by using predictive analytics software, it can "analyze key predictors such as past offense history, home life environment, gang affiliation and peer associations to better understand and predict which youths have a higher likelihood to reoffend."

What about talking to the kids to determine the best course of action? People are unpredictable and complex; they aren't data points. Juveniles should be taught that the world is open to them, and that they are the agents of their own destiny — not that they fit into the bottom half of a spreadsheet, and therefore need extra mandatory counseling or placement in a group home.

My biggest problem with this announcement is that it takes a good principle and completely warps it. Evidence-based programming is good. Using data to determine what works and what doesn't is smart. But we've crossed the line when IBM's vice president for analytics says the software will help authorities "take the appropriate action in real time to combat crime and protect citizens." What are they thinking?

I first heard about this partnership from Jesus Diaz at Gizmodo, who had the same reaction: "I don't know about how reliable your system is, IBM, but have you ever heard of the 5th, the 6th, and the 14th Amendments to the United States Constitution? What about article 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? No? Let's make this easy then: Didn't you watch that scientology nutcase in Minority Report?"

Florida's Department of Corrections should use any data collected to guide programming decisions on a macro level, rather than using an individual's past mistakes to condemn them to a less-promising future. As it stands, Florida's latest move is badly misguided. But with just a few tweaks, this new partnership could get back on track.

Photo Credit: jsmjr

Matt Kelley is the Online Communications Manager at the Innocence Project and a graduate of the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University.


© 2010, Change.org

[Antigen]

:bump:

[Whooter]

I dont see where this software violates any human rights.  The whole idea is to help these kids so that they dont end up in adult facilities when they get older.  I havent been able to identify any down side to this.  It is very proactive in my opinion.
I just hope they collect data so that they can measure how effective the software use is.



...

[Ursus]

I dont see where this software violates any human rights.  The whole idea is to help these kids so that they dont end up in adult facilities when they get older.  I havent been able to identify any down side to this.  It is very proactive in my opinion.
I just hope they collect data so that they can measure how effective the software use is.

IBM has a fine history of involvement in keeping track of the whereabouts, personal histories, mortality rates and other pertinent incidentals of targeted populations.

[Whooter]

I dont see where this software violates any human rights.  The whole idea is to help these kids so that they dont end up in adult facilities when they get older.  I havent been able to identify any down side to this.  It is very proactive in my opinion.
I just hope they collect data so that they can measure how effective the software use is.

IBM has a fine history of involvement in keeping track of the whereabouts, personal histories, mortality rates and other pertinent incidentals of targeted populations.

Wow, Ursus, you are bit rigid there.  Maybe? Lol That image you posted was 1937.  Hitler was looked up to by most of the world and was Time Magazines’ “Man of the Year” in 1939.  Do you also feel Time Magazine promotes genocide?  Should we avoid reading it?

Are you serious?  Do you really discredit a software program designed today because of a picture of three men depicting “an assumed conversation” taken over 70 years ago?  I thought you were smarter than that.

Here is the prime minister of England with Adolf Hitler.  Were they conspiring about killing all the jews?  Should Jewish people not buy products from England?



Very weak argument Ursus, you didn’t even have to read the article to draw that conclusion.  Your mind is closing more and more with each passing day.



...

[quest]

Come on Whooter, that was relevant and funny and you know it.  So you can’t see the problem with a state buying into an IBM version of an E-meter?

[Whooter]

Come on Whooter, that was relevant and funny and you know it.  So you can’t see the problem with a state buying into an IBM version of an E-meter?

I agree it was funny.  But the scary part is I think Ursus was serious when he tried to discredit the software by saying the company that developed it had a meeting with Hitler 70 years ago.  Ursus has used this same mentality saying that programs were rooted from some brainwashing process used in the 1940’s so therefore they must brainwash today.  If he can make himself believe that then he can easily believe the Hitler connection.  Do you see what I mean?

Guest, it seems you have not read the article either.  There is no E-meter.  It is an analytical tool used to predict risk factors associated with kids who are in juvy detention and how they can best be helped based on their past and present environment.  No one is going to be persecuted for crimes they haven’t committed yet.



...

[Ursus]

I dont see where this software violates any human rights.  The whole idea is to help these kids so that they dont end up in adult facilities when they get older.  I havent been able to identify any down side to this.  It is very proactive in my opinion.
I just hope they collect data so that they can measure how effective the software use is.

IBM has a fine history of involvement in keeping track of the whereabouts, personal histories, mortality rates and other pertinent incidentals of targeted populations.

Wow, Ursus, you are bit rigid there.  Maybe? Lol That image you posted was 1937.  Hitler was looked up to by most of the world and was Time Magazines’ “Man of the Year” in 1939.  Do you also feel Time Magazine promotes genocide?  Should we avoid reading it?

Are you serious?  Do you really discredit a software program designed today because of a picture of three men depicting “an assumed conversation” taken over 70 years ago?  I thought you were smarter than that.

Here is the prime minister of England with Adolf Hitler.  Were they conspiring about killing all the jews?  Should Jewish people not buy products from England?



Very weak argument Ursus, you didn’t even have to read the article to draw that conclusion.  Your mind is closing more and more with each passing day.

Whoa there horsie and Lol x 10! You're being a mite bit defensive there, eh? All I did was make an observation, made umpteen times before by countless others, and provide an historical photo. No argument made. I didn't even extrapolate. No need... You were the one to do that for me!  

Why... if I didn't know better, and to be sure, I don't, I'd venture that you have substantial ideological and financial interests vested in denying IBM's involvement in the machinery of World War II. Perhaps, given IBM's focus in recent history, even some involvement in the software industry?

I didn't even mention IBM's work in customizing the punch cards to the Nazis' specifications.

Nor did I mention their work for the other side. Mmm. Much fodder for speculation here.

But I can see that this conversation is disturbing you to no end! You've even resorted to personal insults, which you usually reserve for others who are a tad... more... blunt.

Tut tut. Methinks ya played your cards too soon on this one...  

[Ursus]

Come on Whooter, that was relevant and funny and you know it.  So you can’t see the problem with a state buying into an IBM version of an E-meter?

I agree it was funny.  But the scary part is I think Ursus was serious when he tried to discredit the software by saying the company that developed it had a meeting with Hitler 70 years ago.  Ursus has used this same mentality saying that programs were rooted from some brainwashing process used in the 1940’s so therefore they must brainwash today.  If he can make himself believe that then he can easily believe the Hitler connection.  Do you see what I mean?

Guest, it seems you have not read the article either.  There is no E-meter.  It is an analytical tool used to predict risk factors associated with kids who are in juvy detention and how they can best be helped based on their past and present environment.  No one is going to be persecuted for crimes they haven’t committed yet.

Nice try, Whooter, but... Did anyone ever tell you that when you try too hard, you give yourself away? This latest piece is just icing on the cake you presented earlier. I think ya need another cuppa coffee. I'd say this is a classic case of exaggeration in an attempt to attack credibility.

 :blabla:

It's called "group management," and Whooter buys into it big time. Gotta keep track of and control all of them hamsters!

[Whooter]

Whoa there horsie and Lol x 10! You're being a mite bit defensive there, eh? All I did was make an observation, made umpteen times before by countless others, and provide an historical photo. No argument made. I didn't even extrapolate. No need... You were the one to do that for me!  

Why... if I didn't know better, and to be sure, I don't, I'd venture that you have substantial ideological and financial interests vested in denying IBM's involvement in the machinery of World War II. Perhaps, given IBM's focus in recent history, even some involvement in the software industry?

I didn't even mention IBM's work in customizing the punch cards to the Nazis' specifications.

Nor did I mention their work for the other side. Mmm. Much fodder for speculation here.

But I can see that this conversation is disturbing you to no end! You've even resorted to personal insults, which you usually reserve for others who are a tad... more... blunt.

Tut tut. Methinks ya played your cards too soon on this one...  

Oh, No!!!  Now I have a financial interest in IBM and their involvement in World War II and their underhanded  presence in the software industry. How can I be so evil..lol.  We should all check our 401k’s and dissolve our IBM interests.  Now I am really a programmie on 2 different levels… (pun intended).

All kidding aside, Ursus, I appreciate your clarifying and stepping back a bit.  No personal attacks were intended, but you do tend to reach way back in history sometimes to try to justify your feelings (and position)  on events occurring today without parallel.  Maybe because there is a lack of substantive evidence residing in the present for you to reference, but I don’t know.  I really did think you were trying to somehow discredit the IBM software with the 1937 Nazi photos and so I felt it was a bit Bazaar, even for you.  So I had a need to respond the way I did, although it was a knee jerk reaction I confess.

If I give myself away, as you call it, then that is a good thing.  I think that many if not most people disagree with me here on fornits but they also can see that I am consistent and open with my opinions and try to explain the reason for my feelings on each subject.  



...

[Ursus]

Come on Whooter, that was relevant and funny and you know it.  So you can’t see the problem with a state buying into an IBM version of an E-meter?

Guest, it seems you have not read the article either.  There is no E-meter.  It is an analytical tool used to predict risk factors associated with kids who are in juvy detention and how they can best be helped based on their past and present environment.  No one is going to be persecuted for crimes they haven’t committed yet.

Incidentally, although I really can't speak for quest, I do believe s/he was making reference to the "Pre-Crime" unit from the film Minority Report, referred to in the blog linked to in the OP (and copied out in the second post), and which stars Tom Cruise, celebrity apologist for E-meters everywhere:

"I don't know about how reliable your system is, IBM, but have you ever heard of the 5th, the 6th, and the 14th Amendments to the United States Constitution? What about article 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? No? Let's make this easy then: Didn't you watch that scientology nutcase in Minority Report?"

[Ursus]

All kidding aside, Ursus, I appreciate your clarifying and stepping back a bit.  No personal attacks were intended, but you do tend to reach way back in history sometimes to try to justify your feelings (and position)  on events occurring today without parallel.

Puhleeeezz. No "reach" needed, these events are integrally connected, as you, of all folk, know all too well!  

[Whooter]

Incidentally, although I really can't speak for quest, I do believe s/he was making reference to the "Pre-Crime" unit from the film Minority Report, referred to in the blog linked to in the OP (and copied out in the second post), and which stars Tom Cruise, celebrity apologist for E-meters everywhere:

I agree, I cannot speak for him/her either.  I think if Tom Cruise had a family member who worked for IBM then people would be trying to make a connection to some E-Meter that they were working on and saying that was the basis for the movie.
Its human nature to wonder but it is nutty to think that Hollywood really gives a crap about the actors affiliations or religions.  They just want to make a huge impact and make a ton of money.  They sit back and laugh when people try to make up conspiracy theories out of it.  I remember when people said if you play the Beatles song “I am the Walrus” backwards it says “Paul is dead”. This was fun and all but there were always people willing to take it to a new level and start to believe it and planning funerals and such.

I am surprised that you buy into it, Ursus.

If you bothered to read the “original” article you would find out that it was just data collection which would provide information to help kids who were already arrested.  Not to arrest kids before they committed a crime.

Think of it as putting more officers in high crime neighborhoods based on statistical data.  This doesn’t violate anyone’s rights and is proactive.  It’s a good use of data

I think the problem is that people read someone else’s spin on an article and believe it 100%, get scared because they don’t understand and then react in ignorance and think that there is a conspiracy or that the last movie they saw reminds them of the present situation.  Just slow down and read the original media release and then decide for yourself.  Don’t be led by others.



…

[Ursus]

I am surprised that you buy into it, Ursus.

Geeezz. You're really on a roll today, eh? Buy into what, Whooter?

This issue of tracking and profiling software must really stick in your craw somehow. Of course, it's not like you or yours need worry about such a thing, eh? After all, that's where the private-pay sector comes in, the parent-choice industry you're so fond of promoting.

Oh, and I did read the original press release shortly after the OP was posted. While I agree that the software is not overtly intended to "arrest kids before they commit a crime," I do have concerns that that possibility may very well happen ... considering human nature and the  feasibility of being judged guilty by association alone.

...Florida Department of Juvenile Justice will analyze key predictors such as past offense history, home life environment, gang affiliation and peer associations to better understand and predict which youths have a higher likelihood to reoffend.[/list]
I can practically guarantee ya that growing up on the wrong side of the tracks is one of the predictors in that database; more tactfully phrased, of course.

Incidentally, since when has profiling target populations ever even made a significant dent in crime anyway?