Author Topic: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?  (Read 16297 times)

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Offline Troll Control

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2010, 08:53:53 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
What was missed?

The most obvious thing that was "missed" is that there is zero evidence that these programs, even when working as designed and no abuse occurs (which hasn't happened yet), help anyone, ever, with anything.  Until such a time that clinical trials are run on the spurious methods used by these programs and those trials prove without doubt that these programs are effective at treating x, y and z, they should be simply legally barred from operating.  

Why should any kid, ever, be subjected to this obvious quackery in the absence of a single shred of scientific evidence that any good may come from from it?
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Offline Oz girl

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2010, 10:21:59 AM »
Not to be deliberately beligerent but I sometimes think death counts miss the point. You never see normal schools boast "Here at St marthas of the worthless miracle we have been educating for 50 years and we still don't have a single fatality".
 As far as I am concerned programs could offer lollypops and pony rides and lashings of fairy floss on a daily basis. But if they deny the right to go home for normal holidays, do creepy shit like reading mail and censoring contact with the outside world, or just generally expect parents to blindly support every single aspect of the school's philosophy then they cease to be a rehab or a school and start becoming a jail or a cult. Parents need to be shown how dangerous this is.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 10:49:28 AM »
Quote from: "Oz girl"
Not to be deliberately beligerent but I sometimes think death counts miss the point. You never see normal schools boast "Here at St marthas of the worthless miracle we have been educating for 50 years and we still don't have a single fatality".
I agree, I don’t think that is a program thing.  Fornits posters tend to focus on how many died.   I think if safety was an issue and lots of kids were dying in programs then the safer programs would boast of how they haven’t had a fatality in 2 years etc.  or how much more safe they are than the other programs.  But there is no need for that because they are all basically safe or safer than our public institution of learning.

Quote
As far as I am concerned programs could offer lollypops and pony rides and lashings of fairy floss on a daily basis. But if they deny the right to go home for normal holidays, do creepy shit like reading mail and censoring contact with the outside world, or just generally expect parents to blindly support every single aspect of the school's philosophy then they cease to be a rehab or a school and start becoming a jail or a cult. Parents need to be shown how dangerous this is.
I don’t believe anyone should read another person’s mail and parents should be allowed to speak up and suggest changes to the program model.   If these types of programs still exist then parents need to be aware and try to force change upon them.  In order for anything to continuously grow and improve they need the ability to change and accept input from others.



...
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Offline Troll Control

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2010, 11:15:24 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
But there is no need for that because they are all basically safe or safer than our public institution of learning.

Link?  Source?  Another fact-free post brought to you by Aspen Education Shillpiece, Whooter.

"All basically safe"?  What about for the two kids recently murdered by Aspen Ed?  What about for the hundreds of kids found to have been "systematically abused and neglected" by Mount Bachelor Academy (Aspen Ed)?  

Whooter, you're "basically" an asshole.
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Offline Oscar

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2010, 12:12:31 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I agree with you 100%, prevention is the key.  The best thing we can do is try to determine root cause and learn from it.  We go thru this everytime on fornits.  No one ever seems to be interested in determining cause.  The Anne Bonneys and auntieEms of the world who just want to stand on the sidelines,  point the finger of blame and put someone in jail does nothing to help the next child.  They are merely trying to satisfy their selfish agenda and personal feelings.

If people like myself push for answers it pisses people off here and they perceive my actions as being proprogram or defending the programs point of view.  Its like no one wants to know how this happened to this child.  Many focus on “homicide” vs "Man Slaughter" or calling people liars vs. learning the cause of the childs death, gaining understanding and helping others.  If we can determine "one" change in the procedure as a result of this boys death, which we could implement in the other existing programs that would save a life, then that would be worth fighting for and worth discussing.  But each time a child dies fornits, unfortunately, takes on a mob mentality and I am not sure why they do this versus trying to help the next child.

Should field operators be trained differently?  Should there be supplemental or special training off site which will help them to differentiate between behavior issues and medical issues?  Should home base be called prior to 911 in every case?  At what point could have this childs life been saved?  What was missed?  These are some of the questions we should be seeking answers to.  Let the police determine which person was negligent and prosecute them if needed.  We should be focused on the children.

If people can put a little bit more effort into trying to find out how this happens, listening to the investigation results all the kids would be much better off, in my opinion.



...
How can they do other than choosing this approach to a situation?

We have a number of parties who could make a difference and save lives.

First the program owners: They should have an interest in setting up programs, which not only cures the special problem they have specialized in but also say no to parents showing up with a kid who will be at risk in the program or delay the entry in the program until risk factor has been eliminated. In cases where a kid has been measure to have taken certain drugs, they must keep the kid in the office or a hotel into the drug is out of the system. If a kid cooks to death out in the desert and the staff ensures that the kid has gotten both food and water, it must be the medical staff, who has failed or there must be a wrong policy which prevents the medical staff from stopping these kids before they are put in a potential dangerous situation.

One way of forcing the programs to create the right set of policies is to make them hurt until they learn. It seems that the amount they settle with the parents is not high enough. Where are the Insurance firms in this game? Are they not tired of paying up? In Denmark where In Germany they have removed some of the most extreme speeding. As you properly know there is no speed limit on most part of the German high ways, but the German Insurance firms have decided that the owners must pay for their own car if they crash while going faster than 87 mph, so most drivers choose not to exceed this limit. In Denmark young drivers can get a huge discount by some firms if they install a satellite box in their car, so they are warned if they exceed the speed limit and the Insurance firms can learn of the last movements of the car and the choices the driver did up to an accident.

So much for the Insurance firms: If you have seen the victim list the number of kids dying is not dropping if you compare the numbers to the 1980's and the 1990's. Of course we have to look at the number of programs and kids in programs. Where are the statistic showing how many kids who are in programs, so we all can learn if the percentage of kids dying in programs is the same or it has changed? Every death is unacceptable but in this case none seems to collect the statistic material which can prove if the industry is on the right path.

Where is NATSAP in this issue? Why are they not out there pointing fingers at programs which set aside all of the too few guidelines which exist? They must realize that people cannot differ between a program operated by a NATSAP member and a program operated by a non-member if there is no difference. Have they at any point in their history kicked a member out if the member did not live up to their guidelines?

If the insurance firms won't stop the dangerous procedures, if the industry show no interest in so, then we normally turn to our politicians so they can make laws which ensure guidelines. But here we have a problem we also battle in Denmark. Politicians also want jobs in their area so sometime they choose to forget safety at firms operating in their area. It is certainly the case in many areas. In Denmark we have taken all work about taxes away from the towns and made it a job for the tax department only to check if the firms pay their taxes and we did find firms where they were not doing a good job in the old days. I believe that it shouldn't be up to the single state to set standards for wilderness programs. It shouldn't be up to the single state to decide if they want to abolish checking up on boarding schools just because the school is a religious boarding school as it is the case in Missouri. It should be a federal matter.

For now the more unserious program owners can state shop looking for the state with the poorest level of regulation. Parents can read a warning about foreign programs. Where are the warnings against states choosing not to do their job in a proper manner?

I can understand why Anne Bonney and AuntieEm are out there criticizing the programs. You can say all about their methods but at least they are out there speaking out against repetition of these tragedies and I will continue to support them as the death kids in the programs were failed by the Insurance firms, the programs owners and our politicians. Who else are out there ensuring the safety of kids in the programs?
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2010, 12:12:58 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2010, 12:37:26 PM »
Quote from: "Oscar"
First the program owners: They should have an interest in setting up programs, which not only cures the special problem they have specialized in but also say no to parents showing up with a kid who will be at risk in the program or delay the entry in the program until risk factor has been eliminated. In cases where a kid has been measure to have taken certain drugs, they must keep the kid in the office or a hotel into the drug is out of the system. If a kid cooks to death out in the desert and the staff ensures that the kid has gotten both food and water, it must be the medical staff, who has failed or there must be a wrong policy which prevents the medical staff from stopping these kids before they are put in a potential dangerous situation.
I am in favor of a third party independent sign off prior to any child entering a program.  this should include a medical screening.

Quote
One way of forcing the programs to create the right set of policies is to make them hurt until they learn. It seems that the amount they settle with the parents is not high enough. Where are the Insurance firms in this game? Are they not tired of paying up? In Denmark where In Germany they have removed some of the most extreme speeding. As you properly know there is no speed limit on most part of the German high ways, but the German Insurance firms have decided that the owners must pay for their own car if they crash while going faster than 87 mph, so most drivers choose not to exceed this limit. In Denmark young drivers can get a huge discount by some firms if they install a satellite box in their car, so they are warned if they exceed the speed limit and the Insurance firms can learn of the last movements of the car and the choices the driver did up to an accident.

Insurance companies do presently award great sums of money to the victims in this country.  This puts a lot of hurt on these corporations if they are negligent.

Quote
So much for the Insurance firms: If you have seen the victim list the number of kids dying is not dropping if you compare the numbers to the 1980's and the 1990's. Of course we have to look at the number of programs and kids in programs. Where are the statistic showing how many kids who are in programs, so we all can learn if the percentage of kids dying in programs is the same or it has changed? Every death is unacceptable but in this case none seems to collect the statistic material which can prove if the industry is on the right path.

Like you mentioned the number of programs and kids attending them has exploded over the past decades.  So the relative percentage of kids dying has probably dropped significantly since the 1980’s and 1990’s

Quote
Where is NATSAP in this issue? Why are they not out there pointing fingers at programs which set aside all of the too few guidelines which exist? They must realize that people cannot differ between a program operated by a NATSAP member and a program operated by a non-member if there is no difference. Have they at any point in their history kicked a member out if the member did not live up to their guidelines?
NATSAP doesn’t really have any power.  They had a chance to step up to the bar but they failed in my opinion.  Hopefully they pull together and create an oversight agency that can make a difference in this industry.

Quote
If the insurance firms won't stop the dangerous procedures, if the industry show no interest in so, then we normally turn to our politicians so they can make laws which ensure guidelines. But here we have a problem we also battle in Denmark. Politicians also want jobs in their area so sometime they choose to forget safety at firms operating in their area. It is certainly the case in many areas. In Denmark we have taken all work about taxes away from the towns and made it a job for the tax department only to check if the firms pay their taxes and we did find firms where they were not doing a good job in the old days. I believe that it shouldn't be up to the single state to set standards for wilderness programs. It shouldn't be up to the single state to decide if they want to abolish checking up on boarding schools just because the school is a religious boarding school as it is the case in Missouri. It should be a federal matter.

For now the more unserious program owners can state shop looking for the state with the poorest level of regulation. Parents can read a warning about foreign programs. Where are the warnings against states choosing not to do their job in a proper manner?
The politicians in this country are useless when it comes to regulation.  They basically pass laws and set rules in place and then walk away and allow the corruption to seep in.  It becomes worse than when it started.  It is best to keep the programs independent and competitive.  At least for now.
Quote
I can understand why Anne Bonney and AuntieEm are out there criticizing the programs. You can say all about their methods but at least they are out there speaking out against repetition of these tragedies and I will continue to support them as the death kids in the programs were failed by the Insurance firms, the programs owners and our politicians. Who else are out there ensuring the safety of kids in the programs?

I think they put in the effort but their hearts are not in the right place imo.  Instead of carrying a torch and looking for someone to hang and dump personal built up anger we should be looking for solutions and thinking about the kids instead.  They should put aside their personal failings and try to work towards helping others and give the next generation a leg up.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2010, 12:50:08 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:50:19 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2010, 01:05:11 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter avoiding the question again.

Quote
  Whooter wrote: There are Aspen programs which are having serious problems

Can you be more specific Whooter? Please elaborate on the problems Aspen programs are having.

Hint:  The answer is in the OP... Check with Oscar.



...
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2010, 01:09:13 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter avoiding the question again.

Quote
  Whooter wrote: There are Aspen programs which are having serious problems

Can you be more specific Whooter? Please elaborate on the problems Aspen programs are having.

Hint:  The answer is in the OP... Check with Oscar.



...


Well, this is the OP...

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Does anyone have a body count?

Does anyone know how many Aspen Ed programs have been closed due to either abuse or deaths?


That doesn't answer his question to you though.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2010, 01:21:47 PM »
Whoops:  Here ya go Joel:

Quote from: "Oscar"
From our victim list pages:

1980's: 1 (SUWS - However before Aspen ownership)
2000-2004: 2 (Island View and Lonestar Expeditions)
2005-2009: 4 (SUWS, Aspen Achievement Academy, Youth care and Sagewalk)

They are not among the most deadly programs, but who is setting the numbers determing what kind of number it takes before the entire operation is judged as a failure.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2010, 01:37:06 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Whoops:  Here ya go Joel:

Quote from: "Oscar"
From our victim list pages:

1980's: 1 (SUWS - However before Aspen ownership)
2000-2004: 2 (Island View and Lonestar Expeditions)
2005-2009: 4 (SUWS, Aspen Achievement Academy, Youth care and Sagewalk)

They are not among the most deadly programs, but who is setting the numbers determing what kind of number it takes before the entire operation is judged as a failure.


That's not what he asked.  He asked what problems, specifically, Aspen programs are having.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2010, 04:20:27 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Whoops:  Here ya go Joel:

Quote from: "Oscar"
From our victim list pages:

1980's: 1 (SUWS - However before Aspen ownership)
2000-2004: 2 (Island View and Lonestar Expeditions)
2005-2009: 4 (SUWS, Aspen Achievement Academy, Youth care and Sagewalk)

They are not among the most deadly programs, but who is setting the numbers determing what kind of number it takes before the entire operation is judged as a failure.


That's not what he asked.  He asked what problems, specifically, Aspen programs are having.


Other than what Oscar has I really dont know.  I rely on him for the details.  Shoot him a quick PM or email and he will point you in the right direction.



...
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2010, 04:25:53 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

Other than what Oscar has I really dont know.  I rely on him for the details.  Shoot him a quick PM or email and he will point you in the right direction.


No, you said that some Aspen programs are having problems.  What did you mean by that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: How many deaths have occured at Aspen Ed programs so far?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2010, 04:36:57 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Joel"
2005-2009: 4 (SUWS, Aspen Achievement Academy, Youth care and Sagewalk) >  Sounds like Aspen programs are safe to me Whooter.  How ya' gonna spin it this time Whooter?

There are Aspen programs which are having serious problems, but taken all together Aspen facilities are among the most safe.

Which ones and what are the problems?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa