AA and TC.s - How It Went So Wrong....????

[SEKTO]

Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes.  Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception.  But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way.  Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no.  But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion.  Again, any group can turn abusive.  That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.

Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false

Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm

The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.

[SEKTO]

Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes.  Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception.  But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way.  Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and dependent relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no.  But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion.  Again, any group can turn abusive.  That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.

Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E

What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false

Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm

The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.

[Anne Bonney]

No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA. Now what started it out in 1935, is not what your seeing today world wide.

Nope.  He knew that the god issue would turn most people off so he made it 'god of your understanding' but that does not mean it's not based on a cult, walks like a cult, quacks like a cult.

 

Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer.  Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny

35' Webber's Cove.  Took it over near MacDill and watched the airshow.  The Angels flew right over top of us.

[DannyB II]

It's very very uncool in my sight to encourage somebody to kill him or her-self.  That's not a joking matter.

Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes.  Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception.  But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way.  Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no.  But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion.  Again, any group can turn abusive.  That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.  I do not see how AA is an intrinsically abusive group, or series of situational traps.  That's how I look at cults and other abusive groups: they are a sustained series of situational traps.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I don't either see AA as a cult yet as you said walking into some of there meeting you would think that Hitler was somewhere in the room. The propaganda can become excessive even for a 22 year member like me. There are many AA fanatics, just like there are many Democratic and Republican fanatics, Walmart fanatics ect....we as a nation have a tendency of suffering from OCD (especially me...lol). We like what we like and that is it.
AA groups have been known to be very abusive in their selective agendas they want to preach. I am very careful as to where I go to meeting and how I go about my principles that I learned in AA.
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
 :shamrock:
Excellent!!!!!!
 :shamrock:

What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.

 :shamrock:
I'll look into that.
 :shamrock:

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false

Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I have always wondered what is the pre-condition to have all these systems fall in place. To have full "closure".
Why..?
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
 

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm

The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I find all of this amazing on a altruistic level, where as the person injures himself for the group. Ironically dying in the end with the group.
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Danny

[DannyB II]

It's very very uncool in my sight to encourage somebody to kill him or her-self.  That's not a joking matter.

Personally, in my opinion AA is not a cult, but does have some cult-like attributes.  Any group can become abusive to its members, and AA is no exception.  But I see no charismatic authority figure for whom the group as a whole is a mirror of sorts, no coercive persuasion techniques being employed, and I also fail to see how your average AA member is being exploited in any way.  Now, I have seen AA fanatics who probably had some unhealthy and abusive relationships with their sponsors, but on the whole if somebody asked me if AA were a cult, I'd say no.  But I'd also caution that person to never let somebody else define reality for them, and to always reserve the right to have an independent opinion.  Again, any group can turn abusive.  That's my two cents' on the is-it-or-isn't-it-a-cult debate with respect to AA.  I do not see how AA is an intrinsically abusive group, or series of situational traps.  That's how I look at cults and other abusive groups: they are a sustained series of situational traps.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I don't either see AA as a cult yet as you said walking into some of there meeting you would think that Hitler was somewhere in the room. The propaganda can become excessive even for a 22 year member like me. There are many AA fanatics, just like there are many Democratic and Republican fanatics, Walmart fanatics ect....we as a nation have a tendency of suffering from OCD (especially me...lol). We like what we like and that is it.
AA groups have been known to be very abusive in their selective agendas they want to preach. I am very careful as to where I go to meeting and how I go about my principles that I learned in AA.
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Here's a genius video on cults and thought reform/mind control. Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E
 :shamrock:
Excellent!!!!!!
 :shamrock:

What follows is a pertinent extract (pp. 20-21) from a book entitled Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults, by Janja Lalich. I recommend Bounded Choice for anyone seriously interested in understanding the psychological dynamics of the cult phenomenon.

 :shamrock:
I'll look into that.
 :shamrock:

http://books.google.com/books?id=p2Udi3 ... q=&f=false

Individuals in a cult context are constrained not only by a bounded reality-one product of the self-sealing system-but also by bounded choice. This occurs when the individual reaches what Lifton described as a state of personal closure. ("Closure" in this sense does not mean completion, as it is sometimes used, but a turning inward and refusal to look at other ideas, belifs, or options.) I suggest that a state of person closure should be considered the individualized version of the larger self-sealing system. Thus, as a person identifies and unites with the bounded reality of the group and its belief system, becoming a devotee by making that charismatic commitment to the self-sealing worldview, another process begins to take place. That is, individual perspective and personal decision making become limited and constrained, and that restritction comes as much from within as from without. In the context of closure and constraint, choices may exist, but they are severely limited. In such situations, the person can be described as being in a state of bounded choice.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I have always wondered what is the pre-condition to have all these systems fall in place. To have full "closure".
Why..?
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
 

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... choice.htm

The interaction between the individual and the charismatic system is the key to understanding bounded choice theory. The believer responds to the intellectual and emotional pull of the group with commitment that is renewed through ongoing interaction, and in the process develops a new self. The leader’s vision of the path to salvation has transformational power.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I find all of this amazing on a altruistic level, where as the person injures himself for the group. Ironically dying in the end with the group.
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Danny

[Anne Bonney]

No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA.

Nope, he just toned down the references to god to make AA more palatable to the non-believers.  Bill figured once he had 'em hooked, then he'd work on getting god into their lives.

Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer.  Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny

It was great.  Went across the bay and saw the MacDill airshow.  The Angels flew right over our heads.  We've got a 35' Webber's Cove....lobsterboat hull with a custom house.

[Che Gookin]

I have a rubber ducky with no bathtub, my nautical life sucks shit.

[DannyB II]

No it actually didn't Bonnie. Bill did not like the Oxford Group for that very reason (neither did Bob). That's why they specified a God of your understanding when they wrote the book of AA.

Nope, he just toned down the references to god to make AA more palatable to the non-believers.  Bill figured once he had 'em hooked, then he'd work on getting god into their lives.

Oh and how was the boat this weekend. What kind of boat do you y'all have, I happen to own a Chris-Craft Corsair 36 it is docked on Lake Lanier in Georgia. Actually gettin ready to load it up and bring it to Oklahoma City and put it on Lake Hafner for the summer.  Wind Surfing is something I will be attempting for the 2nd time in my life this year. Nice to hear from you.
Danny

It was great.  Went across the bay and saw the MacDill airshow.  The Angels flew right over our heads.  We've got a 35' Webber's Cove....lobsterboat hull with a custom house.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
I don't think Bill was a big pusher of religion personally, if you read his history he never went to church hardly and if he did it was for a reason. Now I won't argue that folks in AA have pushed the religion agenda to the max, because I know folks who do it. You keep referring to Bill as he did this and did that, no I think your staff and Directors did that for him, Bill died a long time ago, Bob even earlier.
Danny
 
Beautiful boat ya got there, I once had a Grady White I think it may look similar. Anyway I also love the Blue Angels. Great weekend. Love that part of Florida.

[DannyB II]

I have a rubber ducky with no bathtub, my nautical life sucks shit.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Well get yourself stateside and will take a run down the coast to Florida and Anne and yourself can school me on the in and outs of AA, over oysters, lobster and steaks. I may even throw in a bottle of wine from my Uncle's cellar.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Felice:
 
Since you are involved in that "free for all group" with the 12 Twelve steppers arguing about working with others the AA way, I have attached a Big Book Study guide that I use with sponsees when teaching them the 12th Step - passing the message to alcoholics who still suffer.
 
It has the quotes from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous quoted right in it for each point, so you won't need a  Big Book to look the stuff up.
 
Hope this helps.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Here you go again staying up all night with your buddy Art, must be touching to be buddies, with so much in common.
Danny

[Lil Bitz]

For Those of you that think I am an illusion of Felice's mind, think again!  I do indeed exist and have been straight and sober in AA for 28 years.

I do want to correct one thing that was stated, however.  I did not say that neither of you were working your program.  I stated that neither of you were working THE program.  The one outlined in the first 164 pages of the Big Book.  That is the only program of AA I know works ("thoroughly followed our path").  In that program, we DO NOT take each other's inventories and work under HOW, honesty, openness and willingness.  Some of the points you both make are valid and I will store them away for future reference.  Some of them are not AA principles and I choose to not internalize them or comment on them.  The program is one of attraction, rather than promotion.  Those that come, even if court/system ordered, if they like what we have to offer, will stay past the required time.  Others may need to find another path or try their own way (how does that work for You?) a little longer to find the answer.  But, at least staying straight and sober, gives time to clear the mind and gives one choice.  When I was using, I felt I had no choice.  Today I have choice.  'Nuf said for now.

Lil Bitz in Wausa, WI :peace:

[Anne Bonney]

Eliscu.....the boat in that trolling picture looks like mine!!

[Anne Bonney]

  But, at least staying straight and sober, gives time to clear the mind and gives one choice.
Lil Bitz in Wausa, WI :peace:

Now that I can understand and respect.

[Anne Bonney]

Nice boat!
Hopefully one day I will get down to see it and you. :rasta:
Until then...back to the wormhole.

Anytime, we'd love to have you! :seg2:

[SUCK IT]

Oh my, AA is so scary. Let's all go whine about it on the internet, that's the ticket!!