Straight Staff - silent too long

[Rusty Goat]

The program was all about making changes with oneself and phaser staffers became products of their environment. For the most part, these changes were a consequence of indoctrination into the cult. I can see how aspirations to become staffers could "grow" on certain mindsets of that age range and I give SOME former staffers SOME leeway in that regard all these years later. I determine that on a case by case basis. In the case of Rich Mullinax, it is good to see his efforts at self-accountability, however, he should make a greater effort to obtain apologies from the other execs. If he has already tried, I haven't heard about it.  

One thing I hate to hear now is when people who were SO gung ho back then to be staff whine about how fucked up they were while doing it, you know, like how WDTONY talks like he was SO horribly tortured when standing there in group watching the kids crying, bleeding, etc... *insert drama queen emoticon*

 One thing's for sure- accountability is a bitch!

As far as the discussion idea goes, I think there'd be a lot of  :beat:  :beat:  :beat:  goin on


 :cheers:

[RTP2003]

.

3. The people who are willing to discuss the truth and talk about what really happened deserve to not be attacked. Save the attacking for those who really deserve it, those who still believe in hurting others to help them, those who continue to deceive, those who will lie to us anyway. But for those who have differing opinions or just don't remember it like we do, I say they deserve respect and I think we have a lot to gain by being civil and having a reasonable discourse. Instead of asking, "why did you hurt me?" or "how could you think that was right?", maybe better questions to ask are, "what do you think was wrong with the program?" or "are you aware of the history of Straight Inc. and the roots of its methods?" It occurred to me that learning about what the program really was, makes a big difference on how we view what we went through. This education seems very important in overcoming all of the personal complexities and confounded experiences of these programs which seems to keep this issue so very ambiguous and difficult to convey and discuss.

I don't think these discussion boards are the best place to "start" these communications. It probably would be better started as phone calls, e-mails or on FaceBook. One on one discussion without an attack would be a good place to begin.

I think this is a key point, and I would be willing to go along with it.  My .02.......

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Oz girl]

As you all know i am an outsider to all this. So i say this in the hope that it does not offend anyone hurt by this industry and the players within, but i am not sure whether or not people who worked at places like straight or even wwasp who had been promoted from within did so without coercion exactly. While it is not coercion in the sense that kids on low phases are coerced into lying about their drug habits, there also may not appear to be a lot of choices. I try to think what I would do if I had been convinced that 2 years of abuse had actually saved me from myself. Without the education to do anything different or even the social skills to rebuild  a life on "the outside" with normal well adjusted people and it becomes a whole lot less of a choice. Add to all this the fact that you are in most cases still a kid without any other experience of the world. Then on top of this after years of being told you are shit and nothing, you are a leader. You get paid a salary  even if it is shitty, parents and adults who used to see you as a menace suddenly are fawning all over you and thanking you for saving their kids. In addition you have internalized the idea that you might not be able to make it out in the world. From where i sit that looks and feels pretty coerced.

I accept that this does not make abusing anyone OK but apparently few among us have the level of moral integrity to take the noble road in this instance. I read the lucifer effect and what shocked me was not the behavior of the guards but the fact that the guy who designed the experiment got caught up in it. As the "superintendent" of the prison he allowed the abuse to occur and only stopped it when an outsider to the whole thing expressed her disgust. If this is what can happen to a smart, highly educated, middle aged adult who beleives strongly in freedom and questioning authority, it seems a kid doesnt stand much of a chance. So while I fully appreciate that i might feel entirely diferent if I had been treated badly by a malicious staff member, i feel for them because they have the pain of the program and the guilt of being a purpertrator. that cant be easy

[Nonconformistlaw]

One thing I hate to hear now is when people who were SO gung ho back then to be staff whine about how fucked up they were while doing it, you know, like how WDTONY talks like he was SO horribly tortured when standing there in group watching the kids crying, bleeding, etc... *insert drama queen emoticon*

Now why is this a problem? Is it really so hard to believe that someone on staff could start "snapping out of it" just enough to start to see things wrong with what was going on in Straight? Is it possible someone started out being "gung ho" about being on staff, then later started questioning Straight? I think this is entirely possible. I have heard other former staff say similar things. Its possible that if a former staff member started to feel this way, it could have been the beginning of the end of their time on staff and could have been the first signs that the brainwashing was starting to wear off. If anything this makes perfect sense.

If someone still was gung ho TODAY and "talks like he was SO horribly tortured when standing there in group watching the kids crying, bleeding, etc" as you said, then yes I would have a huge problem with that.

[Nonconformistlaw]

As you all know i am an outsider to all this. So i say this in the hope that it does not offend anyone hurt by this industry and the players within, but i am not sure whether or not people who worked at places like straight or even wwasp who had been promoted from within did so without coercion exactly. While it is not coercion in the sense that kids on low phases are coerced into lying about their drug habits, there also may not appear to be a lot of choices. I try to think what I would do if I had been convinced that 2 years of abuse had actually saved me from myself. Without the education to do anything different or even the social skills to rebuild  a life on "the outside" with normal well adjusted people and it becomes a whole lot less of a choice. Add to all this the fact that you are in most cases still a kid without any other experience of the world. Then on top of this after years of being told you are shit and nothing, you are a leader. You get paid a salary  even if it is shitty, parents and adults who used to see you as a menace suddenly are fawning all over you and thanking you for saving their kids. In addition you have internalized the idea that you might not be able to make it out in the world. From where i sit that looks and feels pretty coerced.

I have seen it be debated before whether staff truly made a voluntary choice to go on staff - to me it seems voluntary on the surface. Maybe it was that simple, maybe it wasnt. Someone once pointed out that if staff ever approached any phaser about the possibility of going on staff,  would that person really be able to say no? If they did say no, its entirely possible the person would have been questioned about "where they were at with themselves", whether they were applying their program, ie. the 7th step, blah, blah, blah. I can see fear of set back being a motivating factor in agreeing to do it. Obviously only former staff could answer that question - I would be very interested to see former staff comment on voluntary vs involuntary.

[Rusty Goat]

One thing I hate to hear now is when people who were SO gung ho back then to be staff whine about how fucked up they were while doing it, you know, like how WDTONY talks like he was SO horribly tortured when standing there in group watching the kids crying, bleeding, etc... *insert drama queen emoticon*

Now why is this a problem? Is it really so hard to believe that someone on staff could start "snapping out of it" just enough to start to see things wrong with what was going on in Straight? Is it possible someone started out being "gung ho" about being on staff, then later started questioning Straight? I think this is entirely possible. I have heard other former staff say similar things. Its possible that if a former staff member started to feel this way, it could have been the beginning of the end of their time on staff and could have been the first signs that the brainwashing was starting to wear off. If anything this makes perfect sense.

If someone still was gung ho TODAY and "talks like he was SO horribly tortured when standing there in group watching the kids crying, bleeding, etc" as you said, then yes I would have a huge problem with that.

Well, it doesn't matter if they are "gung ho" or not today. My point is that it is really MUCH easier all these years later for the former staffers to say how so terribly brainwashed and tortured they felt. When they were in group they NEVER acted like they were brainwashed and tortured. In fact, they got off on the power trips and were feared by most phasers. Keep in mind that I could understand their current statements much more easily if they had gotten off the rap stool and just walked out of group one day, ranting and raving about how the program was so full of shit. If that happened, then what they say now would make more sense. That never happened when I was in the program. Hell, even phasers are guilty of abusing too, not just staff. Overall, it's a damn if you do damn if you don't situation and it will never be 100% resolved regardless of who says what when etc. At some point folks should come to terms with history and how it relates to their lives, but constantly dragging through it is futile. I think we have to say when sooner than later. It's ok to "never forget".

One other note: I don't necessarily discount former staffer suffering at the hands of the drug free zealots. After all, they were newcomers at some point and all that jazz. I have noticed that some former staffers have a lot of guilt issues these days and some seem a lot more sincere than others, so that plays a big part in my perspective on this issue.
 :cheers:

[DannyB II]

I don't think these discussion boards are the best place to "start" these communications. It probably would be better started as phone calls, e-mails or on FaceBook. One on one discussion without an attack would be a good place to begin.

Why would former staff provide his or her contact information?  This is a terrible idea considering some survivors will do whatever it takes to expose abuse at the expense of other family members.  

There was a program survivor who called me in the middle of the night. "Janice" rambled on about Provo Canyon School.  She thought I was a former staff member from PCS and sounded high as a kite.  There are only three people on fornits who knew my telephone number.  She obviously got it from a fornits member.  This is one example why former staff (I worked at EYA) should never release their contact information.

E-mails are a bad idea because some wise guy would post them on fornits.  I am  guilty of that.  The same is applicable towards communications on facebook.  

People may ask former staff, "What have you got to hide?"  My response would be, "I have done this before, other family members were affected, so no thanks.  You can thank Angela Smith from HEAL for that."  This is something I tried to move on from and it still is difficult.

If people are still persistent about this idea, then send your questions to Antigen.  She could post them on fornits for former staff to answer.   I think it would better if she moderated this discussion.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
This is the most rational idea I have heard so far. This would work if we could pick a particular night that this discussion could happen for a set period of time. Just some beginning thoughts.
Thanks Joel...
Danny...

[Antigen]

Someone once pointed out that if staff ever approached any phaser about the possibility of going on staff, would that person really be able to say no? If they did say no, its entirely possible the person would have been questioned about "where they were at with themselves", whether they were applying their program, ie. the 7th step, blah, blah, blah. I can see fear of set back being a motivating factor in agreeing to do it. Obviously only former staff could answer that question - I would be very interested to see former staff comment on voluntary vs involuntary.

I never was technically on staff but I can tell you that the above is just about exactly my thinking when they "offered" me and half a dozen other kids pre-training. They stood us up in group to tell us so we were all on the spot. I remember trying to act like I was thrilled about it and being terrified of getting busted. I had planned on getting into college in Woods Hole Mas. to study marine biology as a way out but wound up splitting for the last time right in the middle of a huge state investigation into the program. All 4 of the girls I went to school with split on the same day. Two of them went together, so they obviously trusted each other with those plans. But they had no idea about the other two of us and I had no idea about any of them.

If I hadn't done that I probably would have gone on staff long enough to get my first pay check and a bus ticket to nowhere.

[Antigen]

E-mails are a bad idea because some wise guy would post them on fornits.  I am  guilty of that.  The same is applicable towards communications on facebook.  

People may ask former staff, "What have you got to hide?"  My response would be, "I have done this before, other family members were affected, so no thanks.  You can thank Angela Smith from HEAL for that."  This is something I tried to move on from and it still is difficult.

If people are still persistent about this idea, then send your questions to Antigen.  She could post them on fornits for former staff to answer.   I think it would better if she moderated this discussion.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
This is the most rational idea I have heard so far. This would work if we could pick a particular night that this discussion could happen for a set period of time. Just some beginning thoughts.
Thanks Joel...
Danny...

  :timeout: Hold up, am I being drafted?

I publish my contact info liberally, but that's because I'm in the business of hosting websites. I decided a long time ago that it was worth the (sometimes considerable) risks. But I wouldn't recommend anyone else making that decision lightly, especially if you were on staff and/or a particularly hard assed oldcomer/expediter/etc. Shit, even if you weren't. I was never much of a hard ass. Rarely got called on to do a restraint. I think I actually participated in one once and just tacitly refused to actually hurt the girl. I didn't think I had made a lot of enemies but I've run into people in recent years who were really scared of me. But no one has really tried to interfere with my life except for ed-cons and program operators who have sued me or threatened to sue me.

No, I'd suggest ya'll just do what DJ and Che have done (though I think Che would agree that it wouldn't hurt to leave out the donkey fucking references) Just talk about whatever strikes you as worth discussing and try and leave the personal attacks alone.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[wdtony]

For me, I wouldn't say I was coerced or pressured to work as staff. After being brainwashed it just seemed like the best idea in the world to be on staff. I mean... I believed in the program after the forced nervous breakdown on first phase (age 14), we were saving kid's lives and the world, "in my mind". After 7-stepping, as a 16 year old kid who was thoroughly washed, it was an honor to be accepted to go on staff. In the "closed system world" of the program being a trainee on staff was like moving to another phase which offered more power and freedom. For me, it was an easy decision because I was very afraid of leaving the program and going back out into the real world where it seemed that (without the program) I would be destined to end up dead, insane or in jail according to the mantra.

But after a few months of re-integrating back into the outside world a bit and starting to think for myself again, I believed that there was a better way to "help kids get off drugs" and at that point I started to see that the confrontational therapy and self-hate that was piled on the kids daily in raps just wasn't necessary. I started to change my thinking about my devotion to the program and about program ways. I have heard from other former staff that they also went through this conversion and were also subsequently banished from the program for it.

One thing I don't understand is that for years after I was ostracized from KHK, I still believed in most of what they had drilled into my head. Even though it should have been blatantly obvious that what they had done was very wrong. I often wonder why I almost entirely eliminated my thoughts about the first phase of the program until many years later.

I do feel guilty for the things that I did as an oldcomer and I wish I could take everything back, but I don't blame myself. The truth is I really had very little control after the wash.

I don't think we are going to get a response from the executive staff who are responsible for the existence of these programs. They profited from the programs and I assume from their silence that they are (and were) aware of their crimes.

[DannyB II]

E-mails are a bad idea because some wise guy would post them on fornits.  I am  guilty of that.  The same is applicable towards communications on facebook.  

People may ask former staff, "What have you got to hide?"  My response would be, "I have done this before, other family members were affected, so no thanks.  You can thank Angela Smith from HEAL for that."  This is something I tried to move on from and it still is difficult.

If people are still persistent about this idea, then send your questions to Antigen.  She could post them on fornits for former staff to answer.   I think it would better if she moderated this discussion.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
This is the most rational idea I have heard so far. This would work if we could pick a particular night that this discussion could happen for a set period of time. Just some beginning thoughts.
Thanks Joel...
Danny...

  :timeout: Hold up, am I being drafted?

I publish my contact info liberally, but that's because I'm in the business of hosting websites. I decided a long time ago that it was worth the (sometimes considerable) risks. But I wouldn't recommend anyone else making that decision lightly, especially if you were on staff and/or a particularly hard assed oldcomer/expediter/etc. Shit, even if you weren't. I was never much of a hard ass. Rarely got called on to do a restraint. I think I actually participated in one once and just tacitly refused to actually hurt the girl. I didn't think I had made a lot of enemies but I've run into people in recent years who were really scared of me. But no one has really tried to interfere with my life except for ed-cons and program operators who have sued me or threatened to sue me.

No, I'd suggest ya'll just do what DJ and Che have done (though I think Che would agree that it wouldn't hurt to leave out the donkey fucking references) Just talk about whatever strikes you as worth discussing and try and leave the personal attacks alone.

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
Well of course your being drafted why not....lol...it's a free for all. Seriously I don't know what to say on this topic. I am doing "so so" with Elan folks. I have met many (Elan residents) in AA so the situation has been conducive to working things out, some had been in AA longer then I. I don't take for granted that folks (survivors) will accept me whether there in AA or not. I just try to make it as easy as possible for a understanding to happen.
I made a suggestion concerning staff conversing with the population but to be honest I am good going about it as I have been.
Danny

[Antigen]

Why not just use Che's Programs Q&A forum?

[Antigen]

You don't really need to converse all that much. Here's one former Sr. staffer who just did his thing then exited stage left. search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=enough&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

I remember this guy. He showed up to speak at the Trebach conference in 2000. He was so scared that it was a set up by former clients that he never even gave his real name till he was at the podium.