Author Topic: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA  (Read 2312 times)

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Offline DannyB II

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Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
« on: March 10, 2010, 03:27:37 PM »
.....
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:30:57 PM by DannyB II »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Joel

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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 04:28:26 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:39:50 AM by Joel »

Offline SUCK IT

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Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 05:34:00 PM »
AA SAVED MY LIFE. This is true.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
one day at a time

Offline DannyB II

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Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 06:03:56 PM »
..
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:31:37 PM by DannyB II »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Offline DannyB II

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Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 06:52:27 PM »
..
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:31:56 PM by DannyB II »
Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Offline Free Will

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Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 07:59:07 PM »
Quote from: "Eliscu2"
This is not the first time you have promised to move on..........
He can't help it.  He's powerless.

Niel Peart of Rush wrote "if you choose not to choose, you still have made a choice", in the song "Freewill".  I think there's an exception.  If a person believes they cannot choose, they cannot make a choice.  Perhaps that's not quite right.  They still make choices, they just don't' believe they are the ones making the choices, conveniently absolving themselves of the consequences and guilt that goes with it.  A person who believes himself to be powerless will give into whatever he believes he is destined to do, or whatever he believes his higher power wills to happen.  Have another drink.  Snort another line.  Post again on the forum.  Weakness is attributed to a lack of faith or the higher power's decision not to intervene, Strength is attributed to the higher power.  Nothing is attributed to the self, and the self as a result is not held responsible.  Living such a life is living as a slave to an imaginary tyrant, deprived of free will.

Personally I'd rather die than accept that as a belief system.  Thankfully one doesn't have to.  There are many recovery programs out there that don't teach a doctrine of powerlessness.  Don't get me wrong or take this to mean I'm attacking religion.  I'm not.  Almost all religions teach that god gave man free will.  Only AA denies this.  There is no desire so strong that it can overpower the will to resist, and if you give in, it's still your choice.  Christianity calls this temptation and sin (both choices, given to us by free will).  AA calls it a disease and relapse (determinism) over which one is powerless.  Only the former treats a person like a human being.  I'm no fan of Christianity, but at least it doesn't convince people that they are slaves to their desires.

One Christian doctor's view of AA:

http://jbmyers.net/?page_id=11
Quote
As mentioned previously, the Twelve Steps theory of loss of control, powerlessness, and the required action of a Higher Power is a religious-based treatment approach that has its religious roots in the ecumenical Oxford Group and the theological determinism of John Calvin.  These deterministic features are present in the treatment methods of AA, Twelve Steps, and the disease model. In fairness, the disease model does not have its roots in religion but in the biological nature of disease, which is also deterministic in that we cannot choose to get sick.
Right, but a "sick" person cannot choose to get well either.  Addicts can, and thus it's not really "getting well", rather "making healthier choices".  Addiction is not a disease.  It's a behavioral habit that can be broken.
Quote
Because these two views of behavior share a common philosophy, they join together in their approach to addiction treatment. The misapplication of determinism to addiction behavior runs counter to the more practical and successful cognitive techniques described in Beck (1993), Schaler (2000), Peele (2004), and others. This determinism encourages people to define themselves in negative and self-defeating ways, such as “I am an alcoholic” or “I am an addict,” as if this is a part of one’s personhood. Note how this kind of confessional dominates in current AA and disease model approaches to addiction. It is not a mistake, or counter to Scripture, to suggest that individuals have choice, willpower, and control over their lives, even when it comes to addiction.

interestingly enough, browsing further on this guys' webpage -- it appears like many on Fornits he opposes both forced treatment and incarceration for drug use. He's rather eloquent in his arguments as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
[size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

Offline Ursus

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Geeeeeez Louise...
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 09:14:24 PM »
This has been a surreal experience, reading this thread. I've actually tried to stay out of the fray for the most part, although I did make two posts in partial support of you, Danny. You probably won't find another person on this forum more willing to tolerate your boorishness than me, though I'm probably too dense to ascertain that correctly as well.

What's with all the mud-slinging and accusations? What the heck are you referring to with this:
    "I did handle this in private with Ursus and Matt but they chose to handle in public."[/list]

    Did you really think my resurrecting those old Elan posts was about YOU? I'm a bit OCD when it comes to preserving data. Any random knucklehead checking my posts would be compelled to concede that. As hard as it may be on your ego to come to terms with this, trust me, this feature of my personality has absolutely nothing to do with you.

    Although I did notice that you had posted quite a bit in some of those threads, it didn't fully dawn on me that you might have been instrumental in their being axed in the first place ... 'till ya brought it up here.

    It's been a real heartbreak for me trying to retrieve them; not all of the material is still in Google's cache. Some of these are grand old threads from all the way back in 2002. All the effort people have put into them over the years, all the injustices they tried to spell out and put on record, all ... gone. Why?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
    « Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 09:30:02 PM »
    ..
    « Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:32:35 PM by DannyB II »
    Stand and fight, till there is no more.

    Joel

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    Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
    « Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 09:42:09 PM »
    Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
    « Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:43:18 AM by Joel »

    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: Geeeeeez Louise...
    « Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 09:49:30 PM »
    ...
    « Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:33:05 PM by DannyB II »
    Stand and fight, till there is no more.

    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
    « Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 10:04:07 PM »
    ..
    « Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:33:29 PM by DannyB II »
    Stand and fight, till there is no more.

    Offline Octomommy

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    Re: Geeeeeez Louise...
    « Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 10:15:05 PM »
    Quote from: "DannyB II"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    This has been a surreal experience, reading this thread. I've actually tried to stay out of the fray for the most part, although I did make two posts in partial support of you, Danny. You probably won't find another person on this forum more willing to tolerate your boorishness than me, though I'm probably too dense to ascertain that correctly as well.

    What's with all the mud-slinging and accusations? What the heck are you referring to with this:
      "I did handle this in private with Ursus and Matt but they chose to handle in public."[/list]

      Did you really think my resurrecting those old Elan posts was about YOU? I'm a bit OCD when it comes to preserving data. Any random knucklehead checking my posts would be compelled to concede that. As hard as it may be on your ego to come to terms with this, trust me, this feature of my personality has absolutely nothing to do with you.

      Although I did notice that you had posted quite a bit in some of those threads, it didn't fully dawn on me that you might have been instrumental in their being axed in the first place ... 'till ya brought it up here.

      It's been a real heartbreak for me trying to retrieve them; not all of the material is still in Google's cache. Some of these are grand old threads from all the way back in 2002. All the effort people have put into them over the years, all the injustices they tried to spell out and put on record, all ... gone. Why?
      :shamrock:
      When you answer some of the questions I have asked since day one (I have been here) then I have no problem answering yours.
      Talk about surreal experiences and boorish behavior in the same post well ya.....Who are you, what are your credentials and what treatment experience did you have. Level the playing field my friend, give up the cookies... (To many cliches)...lol
       Danny
      P.S. you had every opportunity to explain yourself with responses to my emails on f/b, you chose to come here as Matt.
      So please this delusional boorish behavior is so prevalent on here with you folks, it's like y'all act, "who me I'm above all that jeeberish, this is beneath me". Ursus trust me those posts were about me that you first posted. Coming off the heals of what transpired that day and so forth, they fact you live on this site, please. I will tell you this I and 7 other people (I trust) aren't stupid when we all came up with the same analysis.    Thanks.....No your right I am not at all important, I am rather boring.
      Go play with your 7 friends.
      You are not happy unless you can attack someone.
      Go start another thread and specifically name people who will not give you the time of day.
      You are a Troll, always have been, always will be!
       :shamrock:  :suicide:  :shamrock:
       :feedtrolls:
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Free Will

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      Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
      « Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 12:01:20 AM »
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      :shamrock:
      (1.) AA denies god gave man free will, OK. (2.) AA religious roots came from Oxford, OK. (3.) AA calls addiction a disease, OK. Freewill plagiarizes everything he posts because he is why to young to have any experience what so ever.

      I haven't plagiarized a damn thing (and those three statements are true, btw.).  If you equate knowledge with ignorance you're even more far gone than I originally thought.

      Quote
      The three statements show your tremendous amount of ignorance and since you only intellectualize what you read,copy and paste it is hard to have a conversation with you. You have no sense of heart in what your talking about, your just regurgitating what you read.
      Danny

      The "heart" is nothing but blind animal impulses without the head.  Both must be in balance.  Perhaps you're finding me so difficult to understand because it's you that is out of balance.  Perhaps its' you who have forgotten how to think for yourself and decide rationally and yes, intellectually, whether something makes sense or not.  You can't "feel" the truth.  Emotions can guide you, but they can also fool you and take you down the wrong path.  Without the head, you're half-blind.  Worse yet, you're intentionally blinding yourself out of fear.  There is no such thing as "stinking thinking".
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.
      [size=85]C.S. Lewis - The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment[/size]

      Offline DannyB II

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      Re: Ginger,Ursus, Matt,Felice,Anne......AA
      « Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 12:35:57 AM »
      ...
      « Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 08:34:06 PM by DannyB II »
      Stand and fight, till there is no more.

      Joel

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      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 04:39:37 AM »
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:48:27 AM by Joel »