Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....

[Whooter]

Femanon, I didnt address all your points, but just those that jumped out at me.  If you feel I side stepped an issue or point you were trying to make I can take another look.  Your post was both lengthy and comprehensive and you made some good points, although,  I wish you could step back a little further and see both sides of the issue. Maybe I am guilty also, but I strive to see the good and bad in the industry.  I am not so sure you make the same sincere effort.

……..The only difference is, with survivors we have something to complain about because they were legitimately wronged,

Femanon.  You are only looking at one side of the issue.  Have you considered that maybe the parents and siblings were wronged?  Do really you think that in every case ?  That the family wasn’t hurt also?

I can understand that a parent who had a child in a program, assuming they had a decent experience and found legitimate success after the program would be able to come to the conclusion that the program "works" but the problem with this is that such a blinding belief system deters you from looking beyond the surface. If you feel you were not wronged by a program what need would you have to analyze and research the specific methods used? Or look into the credentials of those who treated your child or study the track record of that particular company... For example, the fact that WWASP has now had 14 schools shut down for abuse should really deter parents from enrolling their kids, yet people still do, everyday. I really have to question the logic of such a parent, either be it ignorance or malice, to put their child in such a potentially dangerous situation. Consider this, when a restaurant in my city had a minor case of hepatitis people freaked out, and most people I know vowed to never eat there again, which although unfortunate for said restaurant is pretty normal human behavior. But consider if this restaurant were a BIG franchise and over the years had multiple locations shut down by the health department and consumer groups created specifically to oppose said franchise you would think that would signal that there is something legitimately wrong with the way this franchise does business, right? Well why is it so different for WWASP? What is the life blood that keeps this company afloat? is it their mega marketing scheme? no, it's their followers, those who swear up and down that WWASP was the only thing that could have saved the life of their child... well I'm sorry but even if I had no personal experience with the program at all, that right there would seem fishy. With that said, That's really not the worst of it, what is truly sad, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, is that the only reason former students, parents or ed-cons could possibly come to such a conclusion is because they were successfully conned into believing that for something the teen did or might have done in the future, they deserved to be stripped of their human rights, be subjected to abuse and or maltreatment and all for a price that could rival tuition for an ivy league education.

I wouldn’t eat in those restaurants either but I would still dine out.  Why assume that everyone that had a different experience than you was somehow conned, from the students to their parent?  Maybe your misunderstanding of the success stories should justify my understanding that those who didn’t do well just never applied themselves?  

another point I'd like to mention, do you really think that those of us that speak out are only those who "failed" in the program? Because I personally know several former students who not only graduated but also chose to go work for the program only to come to the realization later that what they thought was treatment back then was really an elaborate con by unprofessional religious zealots. I can only speak for myself, because I saw it from day one, while I was in the program I made note of each and every thing that I knew to be illegal and unethical and I made my observations known. It goes without saying that not everyone was as perceptive, but on some level, we all knew there was something wrong with that place. The problem is, these places are constantly conditioning their subjects to adhere to a specific belief system, and if that belief system is questioned there are serious consequences for those who step out of line. Does that mean I "failed" at the program? Actually I'm pretty sure I learned a lot while confined, maybe not what they were trying to teach me but for all intensive purposes I do consider myself a success, not at the program but at life. I don't have a drug problem and I have kept myself out of trouble, I have a considerably lucrative career and some very important hobbies, one of which is this cause. I don't claim to be perfect however I do believe that I would fit into the criteria of a "success story" even though I would be considered to have "failed" the program. You make a good argument by saying we all have choices, and one way or another we got ourselves where we are, in the grand scheme of things I would agree for the simple fact that I do believe everything, even the bad stuff, happens for a reason. However I believe strongly that just because life rolls on doesn't mean that those people and institutions that have done considerable harm to me and others should be absolved of their wrong doings. I am a firm believer that we both make and give our own karma, it's human nature to want to enact revenge on those who have wronged us and created havoc in our lives, and although I do not support employing violence I believe it is the responsibility of the victims to stand up and cry out for justice to be served. For all intensive purposes I also think it's our responsibility to hold our government responsible for not regulating these places, providing a breeding ground for corruption and abuse. Furthermore it's about time we call for absolute abolishment of the harmful techniques employed by these programs. As if the standing laws against child abuse aren't clear enough, it seems we need to spell it out for these people.

It is your choice to decide if your personal success is rooted in the tools and lesson you acquired during your stay at a program or not.  Some survivors say they were saved by the program others say the program hurt them.  Some say they succeeded in spite of the program  and others credit the program for their success. Neither you or I can sit here and tell them they are wrong.  It is their perspective.

Of course I've gone off on a tangent about programs, and this doesn't exactly apply to AA but I believe the principal remains the same... “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” MLK Jr.

I agree with your MLK quote.  I think if any of us try to make others believe we know all the ins and outs of the industry and every program under their umbrella then they are lying or grossly ignorant.  We need to accept and keep our minds open to everyone’s experience, whether we agree with it or not.  To close our minds to other people and hide behind comments like “They must be brain washed” or conned is doing a disservice to themselves and will limit their ability to work towards a solution which will benefit everyone.
Like you mentioned we both know that fornits doesn’t represent everyone who attended a program.  People are helped by programs and hurt by programs.  AA is effective with some people and others find a different path.  Its not black and white.  We shouldn’t force everyone to attend a program or AA and on the flip side we shouldn’t shut down every program or pass a law making attending AA a crime.



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[DannyB II]

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[Che Gookin]

Hey thanks for your breakdown. Hell I could have made it very easy for ya, I'm fucking whacked. Damn stop wasting all those big words on me I don't deserve them. Talk to me like trash, I love it.
Now vacillating is that where you cover yourself with K-Y Jelly and try to squeeze between persecution and superiorty. Shit I don't know I'm dellusional right now, thank you Inculcate (just had to bring that up) I don't know whether I should screw the door or open the light bulb.
Anyway going to see a rodeo tonite so maybe all that cowshit will clean out my head.
 Danny
 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Say Danny, this weekend I'm gonna cover your mama up with K-Y Jelly and squeeze between her butt-cheeks.  Shit I don't know I'm delusional right now, thank you Danny Bennison I don't know whether to screw your mama or put her out to work.

Chupa mi pinga, pendejo!

Hi there, to big of a fucking chickenshit to post with your real screen name?

[DannyB II]

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[Anti-Troll]

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[Antigen]

Great article, Fem!

I think I can answer a couple of points that jumped out at me.

First, the difference between a fast food franchise and the troubled parent industry is mostly about scale and a little about the nature of the beast. Everybody eats roast beast from a fast processed-food-product outlet like McD's or KFC once in awhile. Even if you try to avoid that Monsanto produced, multinationally provisioned mystery-frankenfood-food-like shit like the plague, everyone knows what it is. There's one on every corner, billboards on the roads, ads on every channel and coupons in every newsish-like rag that may go fluttering by your feet on a windy day.

As the industry has grown and the underlying philosophy has taken on adherents, more and more people have some close or first-hand experience with the industry. But it still has nowhere near the exposure that fast food has.

I also think you're spot on that existing child abuse laws, not to mention laws against assault and false imprisonment against anyone, more than cover preventing the most harmful practices in this industry. It's an attitude problem and I think the governments have more than a little to do with that. The way the laws are written and interpreted recently is a lot different from times past. When I was a kid if you skipped school you got suspended. If you got suspended enough you got expelled. If your parents forced the issue, you then got a j-j-j-j-j-o-b. If not you loafed around the house, went to the beach and went on doing whatever you had been doing while skipping school. Either way, you were not treated as a criminal and the parents weren't usually held criminally liable.

Now we have a fucked up situation where law enforcement and other agencies are telling parents "do something, or else!" Worse? You used to have to do something pretty bad to even get expelled. Now? We let the 2nd graders decide ->
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30051

One of the parent comments to that story was "What were they thinking?" Is it much of a stretch to think that "Homes Rap" [brothers' keeper, dirt slip, etc., insert your particular program lingo here] or, at the very least, the dynamic of Oprah's or Maury's live studio audience may have some influence?

I think the entire concept that whatever behavior we don't like can be tagged a medical disorder and treated as such needs to be indicted. This is going to take more than one night.

[justonemore]

danny b  Yeah yeah yeah, we get it, AA is really great , the greatest, the greatest ever.! every one on earth should think like you do, act as you do, believe as you do. Spirituality and Rigorous Honesty! That's the WAY! ( why do you pretend to be Irish, why degrade a race you don't belong to?) I'll be HONEST here, I Really like to drink and drive, not necessarily in that order, so perhaps someone could found A.A./AAA. you know, a group for those who like to drink and drive, maybe we could get coffee in little styrofoam cups,  hackneyed spiritual tracts, and maps, all at the same place, sort of one stop shopping?  just sayin' J.O.M.

[Ursus]

danny b  Yeah yeah yeah, we get it, AA is really great , the greatest, the greatest ever.! every one on earth should think like you do, act as you do, believe as you do. Spirituality and Rigorous Honesty! That's the WAY! ( why do you pretend to be Irish, why degrade a race you don't belong to?) I'll be HONEST here, I Really like to drink and drive, not necessarily in that order, so perhaps someone could found A.A./AAA. you know, a group for those who like to drink and drive, maybe we could get coffee in little styrofoam cups,  hackneyed spiritual tracts, and maps, all at the same place, sort of one stop shopping?  just sayin' J.O.M.

AAA is also the acronym of All Addicts Anonymous, an extra culty version of AA founded by Tom Powers. Its therapeutic community is the East Ridge Recovery Center, located in upstate New York. A number of Family Foundation School founders and/or key personnel originate from East Ridge, among them being Chris Stein, Tony Argiros, Betty Argiros, Rita Argiros, Mike Argiros, Robin Ducey, and Mike Ducey.

[DannyB II]

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[DannyB II]

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[Anne Bonney]

"No, but when the book says "do it this way or DIE" it smacks of cultish behavior".
 :shamrock:

Please,  Anne show me where in the book it says this. For once do it yourself, OK.

Ok...for the umpteenth time, here it is.  Again.  I even put it in red so you'll be sure to see it.



Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
Page 174

[DannyB II]

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[Anne Bonney]

I thought you weren't gonna speak to me anymore.  Oh, I see.  It's just like when you said you were 'moving on'.

[DannyB II]

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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010