Author Topic: Child labor laws  (Read 3215 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Child labor laws
« on: October 11, 2009, 03:16:29 PM »
Did anyone ever get paid for the manual labor they forced us to do"?  I sure as hell didn't.  Aren't there child labor laws to prevent that kind of abuse.  IT amounts to nothing more than slavery, they can't even pull that kind of crap in Jail or prisons.  Why can't they be brought to court for breaking child labor laws.  If we can'tget emfor the other stuff, we can at least point out to courts that it is a modern form of slavery.   I'm also sure there were major safety violations taking place on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 05:22:30 PM »
You have a valid point. We who were in straight not only did the manual labor of cleaning the buildings, answering phones and such like low level operations, we also did other things. Speaking engagements were probably the worst kind of exploitation. They remind me now of those Korean held American POWs who were forced to make signed and sometimes filmed confessions during that war. They'd have 5th pahsers, who were about to "graduate", and recent graduates, who were discovering how easily they could be sent back, go out and give a regular ol'e stepcraft "introduction" before adiences of local community leaders, legislators, potential donors, schoolpeople and people of that ilk for marketing purposes. So much for anonymity, the second most impotent "rule."

I can see the value in litigation and even legislation aimed at addressing it. But it's like anything else; nothin in this world is for free. The value is in making news, raising a "hew and cry", getting people to consider the truth of it, debate it, slap the issue around like a red headed step child and, hopefully, raise awareness and understanding of the issue in the public concience. The down side is, of couse, that we'll have more regulation. That means more regulators, more expense, more power raked into conveniently salable bundles and still at the unbelievably low return rate of less than nothing.

Drug policy reform has been very successful in getting people to think of current drug laws as "prohibition. It's accurate, but far from the way people thought about laws on certain unpatentable substances even a few years ago. I think of the changes in laws and stats more as a barometer or success than as a product of it. Almost like an editorial comment from our leaders who must always survive by the maxim "There go my people. I must follow them for I am their leader". If people are willing to change laws and support the advertising sponsors of pro reform editorial and entertainment content that only shows a change in public perception. It's not the cause of it.



By any and all means, make noise about the slavery aspect of it. Remember too that, like all cults, they very much enslave the parents who are prone to that kind of exploitation. They use them for fundraising, recruiting and, in many cases, mundane operational tasks as well. m
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 09:27:11 PM »
Quote
Did anyone ever get paid for the manual labor they forced us to do"?

Yup. We got a dollar a week, which we promptly blew on candy at commissary on sunday.

It increased gradually throughout your stay. I think by the end you were making maybe 20 bucks a week. Not sure.


I dont think labor at RMA would be considered a violation of child labor laws, since we really didnt do anything within the realms of providing a product or service to the general public (manufacturing). It could all fall under RMA's "Self sufficiency" umbrella. Chopping wood for the furnaces, feeding the farm animals and collecting the eggs, cleaning the house, working in the kitchen, that's all for RMA. Even the pointless full-time work details could be argued as a form of "therapy". If we were making shit that was then sold to people in town, or even if we were doing panhandling for donations, I think that more falls under the realm of exploitation in the eyes of the law.


I know nothing about labor laws, this is just my suspicion.

I never really had that much of an issue with the work, besides the work details, which really were designed to fuck with your mind, and could be hazardous, depending on the job. But the other work we did, I dunno, it sure beat raps, and you could work your frustrations out splitting a big stump with an axe, or chill out with the animals. At the very worst, it was boring. As for cleaning, it has to get clean somehow, and we weren't held to ridiculous standards for the most part. (depends on which staff was inspecting.) I had to do similar stuff when I was in a children's home, and I think it's actually a good idea. It's unreasonable to expect other people to clean up after you, unless you are a millionaire.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 11:09:46 PM »
The Department of Labor has laws regarding Child Labor.  Some of the specific issues relate to children between the ages of 14-15 and 14-16.  
Permissible work hours for 14- and 15-year-old are:

    * 3 hours on a school day;
    * 18 hours in a school week;
    * 8 hours on a non-school day;
    * 40 hours in a non-school week; and
    * between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m., except from June 1 through Labor Day, when nighttime work hours are extended to 9 p.m

There's also a section that applies to the RMA wood corral where we used what was known as an Egyptian Slave Wheel which is considered a "hoisting apparatus" and cannot be operated by children.  Occupations requiring the use of machinery, including power-driver equipment could apply to chain saws.  Also in the kitchen, children are not permitted to perform cooking over a flame, which when I was there in 1984 was the way everything was cooked.  Also boilers are prohibited and would likely include stocking the furnaces with logs as boilers and furnaces are considered dangerous.  Also in the kitchen, the use of machines like slicers would be prohibited.  Here is a little section of the rules showing that certain work we performed at RMA could have been illegal.  These rules apply to kids as old as 16, which many of us were.  I added notes of my own in CAPS.

b) Paragraph (a) of this section shall not be construed to permit
the application of this sub-part to any of the following occupations in
retail, food service, and gasoline service establishments:
    (1) All occupations listed in Sec. 570.33 except occupations
involving processing, operation of machines and work in rooms where
processing and manufacturing take place which are permitted by paragraph
(a) of this section;
    (2) Work performed in or about boiler or engine rooms;  (THIS WOULD LIKELY APPLY TO STOCKING WOOD-FIRED FURNACES)
    (3) Work in connection with maintenance or repair of the
establishment, machines or equipment;  (THIS WOULD LIKELY APPLY TO ALL OF THE CONSTRUCTION WORK KIDS PERFORMED)
    (4) Outside window washing that involves working from window sills,
and all work requiring the use of ladders, scaffolds, or their
substitutes;  (THOUGH WE DID NOT USE SCAFFOLDS, LADDERS WERE USED TO WASH THE HUGE MAIN HOUSE WINDOWS)
    (5) Baking and cooking are prohibited except:
    (i) Cooking is permitted with electric or gas grilles which does (EVEN THOUGH WE USED A CONVECTION OVEN LATER FOR BREAD, I THINK WE STILL
                                                                                                 USED THE WOOD-FIRED STOVE AT LEAST TILL 1986 WHEN I GRADUATED RMA)
not involve cooking over an open flame (Note: this provision does not
authorize cooking with equipment such as rotisseries, broilers,
pressurized equipment including fryolators, and cooking devices that
operate at extremely high temperatures such as ``Neico broilers''); and
    (ii) Cooking is permitted with deep fryers that are equipped with
and utilize a device which automatically lowers the baskets into the
hot oil or grease and automatically raises the baskets from the hot oil
or grease;
    (6) Occupations which involve operating, setting up, adjusting,
cleaning, oiling, or repairing power-driven food slicers and grinders,
food choppers, and cutters, and bakery-type mixers; (I KNOW WHEN I WORKED IN THE KITCHEN WE HAD TO USE AND CLEAN SLICERS ALL THE TIME)
    (7) Work in freezers and meat coolers and all work in the (WE DID NOT WORK INSIDE THE FREEZER BUT WE DID STOCK IT AND USE IT)
preparation of meats for sale except as described in paragraph (a)(9) of
this section;
    (8) Loading and unloading goods to and from trucks, railroad cars, (WHEN THE DELIVERY TRUCK ARRIVED, WE UNLOADED IT)
or conveyors;

I will continue to look to see whether "jobs" are different than what we are calling forced labor, agreed to by our parents.  As we were not paid, I think there are two topics here.  Did we need to be paid?  Was any work performed illegal whether paid or not?  This would also cover whether a school can have kids perform labor, as opposed to simply having them keep their dorms cleaned.  And I think requiring them to clean their dorms might not be the same thing as requiring them to clean the entire campus.  

So labor laws cover subjects such as age.  And there were kids who were 16 and under so many of these laws cover them.
Then comes the question of how dangerous the work is.  Whether paid or not, I am pretty sure a school cannot have kids working with chain saws, slave wheels, unloading trucks, working in the kitchen using dangerous machines, stocking furnaces, and possibly even working with axes and mauls.  Additionally any forestry work could potentially be considered extremely dangerous.  So even though we weren't paid, we might not have been legally allowed to perform many of the tasks we were forced to perform.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 11:50:30 PM by RMA Survivor »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 11:40:50 PM »
There is a section of the Department of Labor, Child Labor Laws which relates to schools that offer a "job training curriculum."  I won't paste it all here, but just the sections that are obviously related to points we might make about whether we should have been paid, if not being paid was illegal, if the work performed was illegal or dangerous and similar issues.

This section is about school job-training programs.  They require a program filed with the state, the hours a child can work are identical to my above post as regards school day hours worked, and how many hours can be worked in a week.  Credits for work performed.  And WAGES!!!

29 CFR 570.35a - Work experience and career exploration program.

a) This section varies some provisions of this sub-part for the
employment of minors between 14 and 16 years of age who are enrolled in
and employed pursuant to a school-supervised and school-administered
work-experience and career exploration program which meets the
requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, in the occupations
permitted under paragraph (c) of this section, and for the periods and
under the conditions specified in paragraph (d) of this section. With
these safeguards, such employment is found not to interfere with the
schooling of the minors or with their health and well-being and
therefore is not deemed to be oppressive child labor.

b)(1) A school-supervised and school-administered work-experience
and career exploration program shall meet the educational standards
established and approved by the State Educational Agency in the
respective State.  (I ADDED THIS BECAUSE MANY OF US FEEL OUR EDUCATION WAS SUB-STANDARD.  THOUGH I HIGHLY DOUBT RMA/CEDU FILED ANYTHING WITH THE STATE REGARDING A WORK-EDUCATION PROGRAM.)

(ii) Credits. Students shall receive school credits for both in-
school related instruction and on-the-job experience.

(vi) Written training agreement. No student shall participate in the
program until there has been made a written training agreement signed by
the teacher-coordinator, the employer, and the student.The agreement
shall also be signed or otherwise consented to by the student's parent
or guardian.  (I SKIPPED TWO SECTIONS.  THIS PORTION EXPECTS THAT AS STUDENTS, WE SIGNED AND AGREED TO THIS LABOR.  SO PARENTAL PERMISSION ALONE WOULD NOT BE ADEQUATE.  HOWEVER ONE SECTION I SKIPPED SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT ALL OF THIS STUFF IS FILED WITH THE ADMINISTRATOR OF WAGES AND HOURS DIVISION.  SO HERE WE HAVE A SUGGESTION OF WAGES NEEDING TO BE PAID.)

(vii) Other provisions. Any other provisions of the program
providing safeguards ensuring that the employment permitted under this
section will not interfere with the schooling of the minors or with
their health and well-being may also be submitted for use in
consideration of the application.  (HEALTH AND WELL BEING.  THEY DO NOT ALLOW DANGEROUS WORK TO BE PERFORMED.)

c) Employment of minors enrolled in a program approved pursuant to
the requirements of this section shall be permitted in all occupations
except the following:
    (1) Manufacturing and mining.
    (2) Occupations declared to be hazardous for the employment of (I FOUND THE LIST OF HAZARDOUS JOBS BELOW AND LOGGING IS ONE OF THEM)
minors between 16 and 18 years of age in subpart E of this part, and
occupations in agriculture declared to be hazardous for employment of
minors below the age of 16 in subpart E-1 of this part.  (THE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AND SAFE IS NOW GENERALLY DESCRIBED.  BASICALLY IT IS THINGS LIKE THIS; WE COULD WORK AT A SPORTING EVENT RELATED TO THE SCHOOL, BUT ONLY IN AREAS LIKE SETTING UP THE EVENT, TABLES, CHAIRS, CLEARING A FIELD OF DEBRIS AND GARBAGE.  BRINGING ICE AND BEVERAGES TO ATHLETES OR WHATEVER.  BUT WE COULDN'T RUN THE JOHN DEER LAWN MOWER OR OPERATED A GIANT SPRINKLER SYSTEM AS THESE WOULD BE CONSIDERED DANGEROUS.  SO YOU CAN IMAGINE THE REACTION TO WOOD CHOPPING WITH AXES, SAWING DOWN 60 FOOT TREES, OPERATING SLAVE WHEELS TO PULL TWO TON LOGS OFF A PILE, USING A CHAIN SAW...)

Hazardous Occupations

You generally may not work in any of the following hazardous occupations:

    * manufacturing and storing of explosives,
    * driving a motor vehicle and being an outside helper on a motor vehicle; (I ACTUALLY WAS DRIVING A D-5 CATERPILLAR TO GRADE THE DRIVEWAY)
    * coal mining,
    * logging and saw-milling,  (WE WERE N0T ALLOWED TO BE DOING ANY OF THIS.)
    * power-driven woodworking machines, (I BELIEVE THESE WERE IN THE WOOD SHOP UNDER THE DENALI LODGE AND STUDENTS USED THEM.)
    * exposure to radioactive substances,
    * power-driven hoisting apparatus, (I GUESS THE EGYPTIAN SLAVE WHEEL WASN'T POWER DRIVEN.)
    * power-driven metal-forming, punching, and shearing machines,
    * mining, other than coal mining,
    * meat packing or processing (including the use of power-driven meat slicing machines),  (USED IN THE KITCHEN BY STUDENTS)
    * power-driven bakery machines,
    * power-driven paper-product machines,
    * manufacturing brick, tile, and related products,
    * power-driven circular saws, band saws, and guillotine shears, (ALSO IN THE WOOD SHOP UNDER DENALI LODGE)
    * wrecking, demolition, and shipbreaking operations,
    * roofing operations and all work on or about a roof, or (STUDENTS BUILT ALL THE BUILDINGS AND ROOFING WAS INCLUDED.)
    * excavation operations

Now I will try and find out if we needed to be paid???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 11:49:19 PM »
Listed under FAQ's.  Question: Must young workers be paid the minimum wage?

Under the answers it says yes, but lower wages may be paid in certain circumstances, including High School work-experience programs.  

This program is for high school students at least 16 years old who are enrolled in vocational education (shop courses). The employer that hires the student can obtain a certificate from the Department of Labor which allows the student to be paid not less than 75% of the minimum wage, for as long as the student is enrolled in the vocational education program.

NOT LESS THAN 75% means we needed to be paid at least 75% of the prevailing minimum wage for our state at the time.  

I am next to certain, having read this stuff that yes, we were required to be paid, however they were breaking the law by having us work because they likely did not file their program with the State of Idaho, or for CEDU students, with the State of California.  I am certain they broke more laws by having us perform labor that was considered illegal by virtue of being dangerous, and also illegal because certain labor is simply not allowed.  There is a limited list of what kids are allowed to do for work or work-experience.  So in effect, based on what I have seen and read, we were exploited for slave labor, much of it dangerous and nearly all of it illegal.  

I feel like MythBusters.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2009, 11:50:51 PM »
links for your sources would be helpful
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 12:31:06 AM »
You seriously couldn't see that Department of Labor was all over my posts?  I practically cut and pasted the entire section on Child Labor Law with my three posts.  If you want to go to the Department of Labor website, feel free.  The information wasn't hidden and difficult to find.  It was right there.  My pasted sections were merely so people could read the applicable sections rather than pouring over twenty five extra sub-sections related to stuff like athletic events which were not pertinent to our discussion.  I will give you the honor or providing the links if it interests you.  But my source is quite clearly the Department of Labor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline tulip

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Re: Child labor laws
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 11:27:29 AM »
Hmm thanks for sharing this wonderful post, I really like to your thread.It is quite helpful discussion according to me, thank you so much for the impressive post......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »