Author Topic: aparently, adults want to go to programs too  (Read 27053 times)

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Offline Ursus

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2 die, 19 overcome at Sedona retreat sweat lodge (#2)
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2010, 11:58:28 PM »
Here's another article with the same title, also the same publication date, but with a different author.

My guess is that the initial report was primarily taken from Associated Press (it's quite similar to the previous article), but that the update contained enough original material for a local reporter to put his byline on it.

The initial report follows the update directly below:

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The Daily Courier
10/9/2009 12:06:00 PM
2 die, 19 overcome at Sedona retreat sweat lodge


Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona Friday where two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat, authorities said Friday.
Tom Tingle/The Associated Press


BY JON HUTCHINSON
Special to the Courier, Verde Valley News


UPDATE, 5:44 p.m.

SEDONA - Two people have died and a total of 19 received treatment at one of three medical centers Thursday night when participants collapsed after a New Age-type sweat lodge experience near Sedona.

As many as 68 reportedly crowded into a tarpaulin-covered dome at the remote retreat in Deer Pass Valley about 6.5 miles south of West Sedona along Oak Creek. The domed structure is about 30 feet long and about shoulder high, estimated Merry Shanks of the Verde Valley Fire District, the agency that commanded the rescue.

Angel Valley Retreat operators say they rented out the lodge to another group for the Thursday event. In addition to the 48 participants, three staff members and three members of the "Dream Team" were in the sweat lodge, where operators pour water over hot rocks to create steam in the enclosures.

James Arthur Ray played host for the event for a "Spiritual Warrior" phase of his "Journey of Power Experience" series of lectures presented across the country. Participants told Sheriff's Office investigators they paid $9,695 for the experience. Ray was in the shelter at the time of the illnesses. Investigators interviewed him, and he since has left the retreat center.

Shanks retreat participants said the "experience" had eight "rounds" over a two-hour period.

The Verde Valley Fire District initially responded about 5:19 p.m. to a reported emergency medical incident, but it quickly escalated as sweat lodge participants reportedly "coded."

"While we were there more and more people were getting sick," said Shanks, spokeswoman for the Verde Valley Fire District.

Eventually, three medical helicopters carried four victims to Flagstaff Medical Center. Ground ambulances responded from Sedona Fire, Montezuma-Rimrock Fire, Verde Valley Ambulance and Camp Verde Fire.

Doctors pronounced two of those taken to Verde Valley Medical Center dead shortly after arrival. They were a middle-aged man and a woman. Authorities are withholding their names pending notification of relatives.

A preliminary assessment by the Camp Verde Haz-Mat Team showed no hazardous materials. Camp Verde Fire Spokeswoman Barbara Rice notes that authorities conducted tests nearly an hour after the first call and when the structure had been ventilated. Crews found carbon monoxide traces in the "voids" between the covering blankets, and a lack of oxygen.

Five patients taken to Sedona Medical Center were treated and released. A total of 12 went to Verde Valley Medical Center. Seven were treated and released Thursday. Three more were admitted, treated and released Friday. Of four patients flown to Flagstaff Medical Center, four remained in critical condition Friday and one is in fair condition.

Robert Resendes, director of the Yavapai County Health Department, says the department inspects the kitchen at the retreat in another building, but does not have any authority over the sweat lodge.

Yavapai Sheriff's Office detectives arrived Thursday night to begin the unexplained death investigation. They interviewed principals in the activities and were to obtain search warrants to determine if evidence exists in other buildings at the retreat.

The 70-acre retreat lies at the end of a rough Forest Service Road on the east side of Oak Creek.

The retreat area has been closed to the press and public pending the investigation.

------------------------------------------

INITIAL REPORT:

(AP) - Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a Sedona retreat, authorities said Friday.

About 50 people were in a crudely constructed "sweatbox" next to an open sitting area at the 70-acre Angel Valley resort Thursday evening, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said. The facility nestled in the forest about 20 minutes from Sedona provides spiritual retreats.

Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat box, emerging lightheaded and weak, said Verde Valley Fire District Chief Jerry Doerksen.

About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were identified only as a man and woman, both middle-aged.

Three people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition Friday, and another was in fair condition. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two of them were released overnight and one was reported in good condition Friday.

Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to determine what happened and whether any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. They were at the resort Friday interviewing the retreat director, staff and guests.

D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had preexisting medical conditions and the possibility that some of the people might have been fasting.

"There are a lot of issues that may have led up to these injuries and deaths," he said.

"It's not something you'd normally see at one of the resorts there," he added, "and it's unfortunate regardless of the cause."

Doerksen, whose fire district responded to emergency calls, said he sent a hazardous materials team into the sweat lodge to test for carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and other contaminants.

"The test they ran didn't show anything out of the ordinary," he said.

Sedona is a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix famous for its red rocks. It is well-known as a center for the modern spiritual movement.

A woman who answered the phone at the resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. The resort's Web site credits various vortexes, a creek and the surrounding vegetation as a way to transform, heal and nourish visitors.


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2010, 12:32:51 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"

I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.


Ummm..........what?

Quote
....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".

"yourself just may win"?  Do you read what you write?  Can you?

Quote
I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

And your point is........?  That this guy is making tons of cash scamming gullible people and occasionally kills a few?

How sad that someone has to go thru life constantly in search of a new guru to lead them.   Sheeple.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline SharonMcCarthy

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2010, 01:05:33 PM »
:roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao: Danny the main drama momma of fornits history has the utter gall to even suggest others are drama winners..Now that is absurd. Then again I believe we all are aware of that. Daniel you obviously wore out your welcome go intrude another website.  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:
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Offline Ursus

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Comments for "2 die, 19 overcome at ... sweat lodge" (#2)
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2010, 06:24:26 PM »
Comments for the above article, "2 die, 19 overcome at Sedona retreat sweat lodge" (#2), (by Jon Hutchinson; October 09, 2009; The Daily Courier and Verde Valley News, AP):


Article comment by: Carl · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    60 naked people in close quarters, violating God's #1 Commandment... Something bad has got to happen!
Article comment by: RandR · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    Looking for a "spiritual experience" in the wrong place. Sad...
Article comment by: Wow · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    $9700? anyone else that wants the experience can come over to my place and spend time in the "spiritual shed" for $15 a head (limit 42)
Article comment by: One chance... · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    You trust your spirituality to new agers, and you give up your life to people who are convinced they are the be-all and end-all to enlightenment. Don't sell yourself short. This is your only chance to get it right. I hope someone got the drift and won't risk their life to a sweaty experience.
Article comment by: mike · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    The plural of vortex is "vortices" I can't fault the editor, as the Sedonites got it wrong...
Article comment by: trippetta · Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009
    Hey I need money, even have some crystals form childhood trips to the desert with my family, plus some knowledge of Native American spirituality; I'll set up a medicine circle in my bathroom for anyone interested and only charge $1,000.00, only no nudity please.(Seriously though, my condolences to the family, it's a shame some people are duped by bogus shaman and would be mystics)
Article comment by: Chris Bergman · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Okay, I give in. If this is how they're gonna spend it; go ahead, tax the rich!
[email protected][/list]
Article comment by: mike · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    hey Jimbo, I did the human math after reading your comment... you didn't add up
Article comment by: CO2? · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    They had to have inhaled something that killed them. Just the heat/sweat wouldn't kill 2 healthy persons. Carbon monoxide could do it and could have been gone by the time it was tested for by the fuzz. I bet the autopsy will show CO2 in their blood, and it stays for a long time after death. Tragic accident but my bet is that the sweatbox was unsafe.
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Shows non-native people why our ceremonies are scared to us, Native American people. You have to have great respect for Mother Earth and the powers she has... I hope these people get better.
Article comment by: Realized too late · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Seriously, these who attend every "spiritual" meeting that comes down the pike are searching for what will satisfy their desire to understand the "universe". They are experimenting to find the ultimate experience, the unforgettable, whatever is far above the "ordinary", quite comparable to those who searched for the perfect, mind-blowing high back in the 60's. It's an unsavory comparison, but still gives us something to think about. They all put their lives on the line, and sometimes lose it. How deceived they are to think they are outsmarting their Creator.
Article comment by: dressed and sweaty · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Carl: 60 NAKED people?!!? Count me in! For prurient reasons I read the article over and over, looking for the reference to nakedity (yeah, made up that word) -- but, alas, could not find it. Commandment #2, Carl: "learn to read accurately". (Sweat lodges, like lawn darts, will no doubt now be outlawed "so this terrible tragedy can never happen again.") ------ I did one of those sweat lodge things one time. There were about 20 of us, none naked, just sweaty and stinky and listening to some blather about journeys and warriorism or some such; and the "lodge" was well sealed with a fire heating the rocks for steam, which felt, indeed, like inhaling fire. Certainly there was a dearth of oxygen and plenty of CO and CO2. Figured I was probably gonna die, was surely courting heart attack, and didn't care because I was so depressed from the bad relationship that made me want to be there in the first place. A couple of people bailed after the first couple of "rounds", but I stuck it out because I'm an idiot. I emerged from the experience still heartbroken and feeling not a bit like a warrior, but more like a schmo. And for only $20! It's good to try everything at least once in life -- or maybe not.
Article comment by: honkybrujo · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    You teabaggers have no compassion at all. I bet you would be upset at the loss of lives and injuries if at your next cross-burning it fell and hit some Klan members.
Article comment by: lesee... 5 + 2 am 59?? · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Hutchinson's article says there were "as many as 68" people and then in the next paragraph says 54 (48+3+3), then the AP article says "about 50", then Carl says "60 naked", then Chris makes it into "87" but sticks with the "naked" thing that's NOT in either article. I know numbers and reading are just real tricky for some people, but C'MON!
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    to No name provided, I dont understand your comment "You have to have great respect for Mother Earth and the powers she has..." have you seen the empty beer cans/bottles/tires/ect blatenly discarded on reservation? From what I have seent you make that statement hard to belive. Now maybe there are some tribes/reservations that are not like that, but I havent seen them yet.
Article comment by: Name Optional · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    To "dressed and sweaty": If there was a fire under the rocks in the sweat lodge you were at, then there was a fire INSIDE the sweat lodge - which is never done in a sweat lodge, there is never supposed to be a fire going on as it gives off smoke and light, two things that shouldn't be in a sweat, so if you really were in a sweat with a fire and not just making this up, then you were not in one that was done correctly. Sweats have been going on for centuries, all over the world in different cultures, not just Native American. It is not a "new age" phenomenon and it is usually a safe and healthy thing to take part in. Let's wait and see what the investigation shows us. There could have been toxins abound somewhere, or there was some other source of illness.
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but doesn't the human body expel C02 naturally, combine that times 60...
Article comment by: Sad · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    The native lodges i've been to 1. never charge money , donations were optional never stressed and used to purchase wood or gas for person running the lodge. 2. The person who ran the lodge was not given the right to do so until he or she followed many ceremonies/ protocols that gave them the right to run the lodge from their peers. This is not a weekend workshop kind of thing it is a committment and takes usually several years before one is allowed to run one. 3. They NEVER used plastic to cover the lodge . The lodge was supposed to breathe . Sometimes in winter months it was lowered a little to hold in heat when its 32 degrees or lower out and raised in the summer months .They never overfilled the lodge with people everyone had adequate space and they were told if it got to hot to get low to the ground where it is cooler , even poke a hand under the bottom to let some cool air in. People were told also if they felt they were having difficulty to speak up . 4. The rounds never lasted more then maybe 20- 35 minutes then the flap was opened so the cool air would come in,water was passed to drink or juice, once again the lodge covering was breathable material (blankets , canvas tarps without water proofing etc.)There were four rounds total each had a significance as to what that round was about. 5. The lodge leader was always aware of the other people participating in the ceremony. 6. Everything used in the lodges were explained when newcomers participated . Oh and no one was naked nor was one ever asked to remove clothing, they did have sort of a dress code when mixed (men and women ) were in the lodge. This also i was told traditional . I think the misuse of the lodge in this case is a tragedy and hope it does not cast a shadow over the ceremonies that have been done safely for eons. I have participated in these with Lakota, Dakota, Northern Cheyenne, Crow , Navajo,Apache, and Shoshone running the lodges and NEVER has there been a bad incidence . These traditonal ways are done so for a reason ! While every culture may have some kind of sweat or sauna ceremony I feel it is the native americans who have carried this ceremony most honestly and NOT the new agers or wanna be's . It is unfortunate that those in Sedona ran into a situation that from my perspective put them at risk .
Article comment by: dressed and sweaty · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    To "Name Optional": Nope, didn't make it up. Could have been mistaken about the fire going on while we were inside, and apologies if I misremembered. (Seems the smoke from a fire would surely have killed us all, as there certainly was no ventilation.) The rest of it -- steam-searing of the lungs and so on -- was quite real. The heat was incredible -- much more intense than any sauna or steam room I've ever experienced -- and we were packed in very tightly. Whole thing felt like a recipe for heart failure. Worst to endure though was the hokum-smokem dialogue and the "channeling" or whatever it was supposed to be. I've had more moving spiritual experiences from going 130mph on a motorcycle. Maybe if we'd had some peyote...
Article comment by: Got off track and admitted it! · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    OMG, 'no name provided' is using this sad event to exert his opinion on the state of Indian reservations and the litter. I knew these comments couldn't go on without someone bringing up the race card. What a sad person. I feel sorry for you 'no name provided'. Why do you live in Arizona with its large population of Indians and reservations? Oh look, I did exactly what 'no name provided' did. I got off track!! Condolences to the families of the two dead and hope for fast healing for the survivors.
Article comment by: Lizzard · Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009
    This is so sad. People cut down in the prime of life. I did have an experience with a sweat lodge many years ago. I stayed in there as long as I could, even after I got so over-heated that I could hear my own heart beating. I never would have thought that my life was in danger. I think that it will turn out that those unfortunate individuals were exposed to unacceptable levels of carbon monoxide. I just pray that God is helping their families.
Article comment by: joy · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
    I've been in two sweat lodges in my life. It's very spiritual and run by a Native Am. It is clear after four flaps that you are to leave, and if clostrophobic you sit near the chief, and lower to the crowd allow air from the TPee to the ground. I cannot fathom 50 nor paying, it's all donation, it's all very kind and spirtual. This is a sad time, and sadder knowing the person charged almost 2,000, for a spirtual journey. This is NOT typical of any sweat lodge.
Article comment by: CanWeKa · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
    Hello - I am sending this comment in hope that it gets out into the wider public or the people in the area where this happened. First of all, I know that the families that this happened to are probably not from this surrounding area where this happened. But my condolences go out to them. I am from the Oceti Sakowin Omniciye People, My bloodline comes from the Tintunwan, I am WaJaJe Oglala, and originally from this land we call Turtle Island. When I hear about misuse of not only our traditional ceremonial ways but also our traditional structures, this concerns me! I am not here to elevate anyone or elevate labels or tags people put on themselves. What I mean by that is whenever you give undo publicity to something of this nature it elevates the negative not the positive. This American society we live in today has never wanted to recognize the Native Cultures out right. Yet they imposed the totalness of their culture on us even their citizenship. We have not been given the right to be our own souvenir nations in our own homelands. This is why these things occur because our teachers are being oppressed. We don't have any rights to govern our own ceremonies so anybody can use/run the lodge/ ceremonies any way they want. And because they don't realize what it takes to live in the native way of life they abuse not only our ceremonies but also our laws. And that is apparent by charging people in this time when this recession has taken everyone down. The $9,000.00 and something that was charged for each individual taking this work shop, Which adds up to around $600,000.00 total just for this one workshop. Most so called Native Tribes here in the United States don't even see half of that amount for their budget yearly. These ceremonies should be given back to the rightful people of this Turtle Island and not be used by anybody of European decent without the proper understanding of what these ceremonies consist of which could take generations. I run Stones Peoples Lodges i.e. (sweat lodges). I don't charge people and this has been a handed down way of life. It was passed down generation to generation, for over 17 generations. So this gives me the right to run these ceremonies. My name is CanWeKa, (WaJaJe Tintunwan) Thank you
Article comment by: Karen · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
    Sweat lodges are also common in indigenous european cultures. But I do think this is not the time or the place to bring up the whole indian-nonindian thing. can we come together in support of those families who have lost loved ones, and for those struggling with loss at this time?
Article comment by: Barbara Cargal · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
    I have sponsored sweat lodges at my farm for many years and never did we require anyone to give money. No real sweat lodge would require money to be given. This amount of greed has resulted in the same amount of grief.
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009
    "Bogus" Shamen? "Would be" mystics... Hey! News flash people: 100 percent of people claiming ANY connection to a non-existent "spirit world" or "supernatural" anything are bogus! Also: Should we have compassion for the families of the deceased or injured? of course! But for the dummies who participated? Heck no! No more than we should have compassion for anybody who is hurt or killed willfully doing something demonstrably stupid. Sure: Cook yourself in a steamer... How very transcendent... Also worthless and in some cases, very harmful.


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2010, 08:03:45 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

I know Anne it is horrible isn't it Hilter, Idi Amin, who became known as the 'Butcher of Uganda, Saddam Hussein ect.


Ummm..........what?

Quote
....play this right Ursus and yourself just may win the Fornits Award for "Best Dramatic Post".

"yourself just may win"?  Do you read what you write?  Can you?

Quote
I get what happened and it is sad, I also know that Roy was and is raking in the money along with thousands other in this country and millions world wide. Folks want experiences and they will pay handsomely.

And your point is........?  That this guy is making tons of cash scamming gullible people and occasionally kills a few?

How sad that someone has to go thru life constantly in search of a new guru to lead them.   Sheeple.

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.
No Anne I am definitely not a follower, just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.
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Stand and fight, till there is no more.

Offline Ursus

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2010, 12:01:06 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.
To a certain degree, you have a point. James Arthur Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" experience is certainly an enterprise that involved adults, presumably fully informed, consenting ones...

People join cults and participate in LGATs all the time. Perhaps some folk might even say that most of these ventures are pretty benign and have little long-lasting effects on participants, save perhaps a dip in disposable income and a reduction in critical thinking ability for a period of time. Of course, should anything bad happen to someone during that time ... then they are not so "benign."

Like all organizations that recruit followers or public participation, cults and LGATs operate on the continuum of persuasion. On one end of it, ya have pursuits like advertising and marketing, on the other, physical restraint and brutality.

As it so happens, LGAT recruitment and indoctrination are very similar to what goes on in the TTI. There are common tricks of the trade, involving physiological and psychological stressors, which help put the participants or recipients in a more easily indoctrinated or "teachable" state. In fact, LGATs and programs in the TTI have some of the same influences in their evolution. Moreover, certain programs featured on fornits also specifically utilize LGATs, to a greater or lesser degree, as part of their indoctrination of TTI parents.

So... like it or not, LGATs are "of interest" to some of us who post here.  :D
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Offline Ursus

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Dahlia Llama
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2010, 12:09:14 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/
Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.
+

I'm happy to hear that you're grounding yourself, Danny, in the teachings of Mother Earth.





 ;)
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2010, 02:34:02 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.

Sure, they're (contraction of "they" & "are") free to throw their (possessive) money away in any form they desire.  I'm free to point and laugh at them when they do.


Quote
Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.

Yes, they do but being gullible makes it all that much easier for them to be preyed upon.

Quote
Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.

Good for you.  I do as well.  I just don't lose myself in the process by following them around like some slobbering puppy dog or becoming some cheerleader/recruiter for them.


Quote
I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.

And it's either one or the other, right?  No in between, right?  More black/white thinking that, I believe, comes from exposure to programs.  It's either right or wrong, their (possessive) way or the wrong way...no grey area, no in between.


Quote
No Anne I am definitely not a follower,

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Quote
just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.

Me neither, I just seek my help from reputable sources and I don't "turn my will over" to anyone.
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traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline DannyB II

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2010, 07:52:16 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "DannyB II"

No my whole point to this stupid thread is I "don't give a shit" what grown ups want to do, it is there choice. If they want to give Anthony Robbins $25,000.00 for a 4 hour motivational rehearsal, just before a big sale pitch, so be it, who gives a shit.

Sure, they're free to throw their money away in any form they desire.  I'm free to point and laugh at them when they do.


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Like I said, ya bad things happen to good people, welcome to Mother Earth.

Yes, they do but being gullible makes it all that much easier for them to be preyed upon.

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Yes I do listen to Guru's......Chiefs/Spiritual Healers/Psychiatrists/Psychotherapist/Dahlia llama/My significant other/Rabbi's/Priests/Buddists/ Hindu Spiritual Leaders/ My older Siblings/My Father ect.....of many different ethic groups, I do seek guidance from all over the world, I do explore the outer limits of my mind and soul.

Good for you.  I do as well.  I just don't lose myself in the process by following them around like some slobbering puppy dog or becoming some cheerleader/recruiter for them.


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I would rather be a sheeple then someone who is so lost they contemplate suicide everyday, live a unfulfilled life, who is alone and full of fear.

And it's either one or the other, right?  No in between, right?  More black/white thinking that, I believe, comes from exposure to programs.  It's either right or wrong, their (possessive) way or the wrong way...no grey area, no in between.


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No Anne I am definitely not a follower,

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

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just someone that is not to big, I can't ask for help when I am stuck in life.

Me neither, I just seek my help from reputable sources and I don't "turn my will over" to anyone.



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Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.    
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.  
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Ursus

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2010, 12:24:16 AM »
Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"
Anne,
Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.    
Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.  
Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there!  :rofl:


    "I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
    Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
    « Reply #40 on: June 24, 2010, 12:55:03 AM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"
    Anne,
    Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
    Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
    Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
    In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
    Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
    I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
    I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
    This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.    
    Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.  
    Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
    Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there!  :rofl:


      "I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
      Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?

      Ursus please don't hurt yourself making your point. Yes the above post was all me.
      Somehow I knew that you would not be able to comprehend those few words. Let me see if I can help the "uber wordsmith".
      Allow, in the context of my meaning is, to let someone voluntarily have a experience without any control on my part.  
      Jeesh I almost forgot, nite  nite...
      Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Stand and fight, till there is no more.

      Offline Paul St. John

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #41 on: June 24, 2010, 01:02:36 AM »
      see ya tomorrow, Danny...

      Paul
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Joel

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      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Reply #42 on: June 24, 2010, 01:11:27 AM »
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      « Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:46:38 PM by Joel »

      Offline Ursus

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #43 on: June 24, 2010, 01:22:57 AM »
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "DannyB II's program propaganda team"
      Anne,
      Can we have a mature debate here without insulting one another, for having opposing views.
      Well I am willing to try, so here goes.
      Anne if you only knew who I am, believe me you would never confuse me with someone who follows or has black and white thinking.
      In business I do have a tendency of seeing thing as black or red, there is no other way and the purple area can get you in a lot of trouble. So I guess this leaks out of my personality at times.
      Personally with my family, friends and self I have a laid back approach for the most part.
      I am on the periphery of the programs, workshops and others interests I have in regards to helping folks. I do not push, endorse or recruit anyone to do anything. I help where I can.
      I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs, I know over time the experience will have more clarity for them, as it has for me. This doesn't always mean that folks will condemn their treatment centers even after 30 years. I don't believe they are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or anything else, they just were not scarred as others. Ya know, I really don't know why so many folks I know from Elan are not angry, scarred, pissed off or whatever but there not and they are not suffering either.
      This also includes Daytop, Marathon House, Phoenix House, Straight, Synanon (yes I know folks from Synanon, actually introduced by my brother.) The Third Nail and various other programs. There are literally thousands upon thousands that are not walking around wounded and helpless.    
      Anne I think I know one thing, yourself and I had many of the same experiences with our Treatment Centers, I know this from talking extensively with folks from Georgia Straight and from making friends with Straights from Florida. So all this bickering I do with you is nothing more then bullshit because I agree with most of your experiences and opinions concerning programs of our past. I actually get where you are coming from, I just don't always agree with your opinions.  
      Last thing, "I don't turn my will over to anyone either". That's why I have a God. I was introduced to that spiritual lesson from, Old Pastor Herman Hanson, Pastor of the Carolina Free Baptist Church, Carolina R.I. A village of Charlestown R.I. Now, I am not a Baptist and never was (more Catholic growing up) but I do believe there is a God. A Just God who is looking over all of us, wondering when the hell were going to wake up and realize no version of God is better then the next.
      Lol, like anyone who's read more than a few of your posts actually believes that is the real Danny speaking there!  :rofl:


        "I allow most folks to have whatever experience they have had in their respective programs..."[/list]
        Ya really think so? That you're in a position to "allow" someone to have their own experience?
        Ursus please don't hurt yourself making your point. Yes the above post was all me.
        Somehow I knew that you would not be able to comprehend those few words. Let me see if I can help the "uber wordsmith".
        Allow, in the context of my meaning is, to let someone voluntarily have a experience without any control on my part.  
        Jeesh I almost forgot, nite  nite...
        Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!
        The point I was making DannyBoy, had to do with concepts and context, not words. Perhaps tomorrow morning, when you've had a good night's sleep, ya might give it another try for the good ol' mothership, eh?  :D
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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        Offline Anne Bonney

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        Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
        « Reply #44 on: June 24, 2010, 02:33:19 PM »
        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Oh Ursus make sure you email Anne, to discredit my post. I know you just could not let that post slide by. MY!! MY!!


        He doesn't need to.  You discredit yourself well enough.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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