aparently, adults want to go to programs too

[Anonymous]

2 die, 19 overcome at Arizona retreat sweat lodge

By FELICIA FONSECA (AP)

PHOENIX — Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge during a Sedona spiritual retreat, authorities said Friday.

Sixty-four people were in a crudely constructed sweat dome at the 70-acre Angel Valley resort Thursday evening, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said. The resort nestled in the forest about 20 minutes from Sedona, a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix that is well-known as a center for the New Age spiritual movement.

Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat box, emerging lightheaded and weak, said Verde Valley Fire District Chief Jerry Doerksen. Authorities haven't determined the cause of the deaths and illnesses; tests for carbon monoxide and other contaminants were negative. D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had pre-existing medical conditions and the possibility that some of the people might have been fasting.

About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were identified only as a man and woman, both middle-aged.

Three people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition Friday, and another was in fair condition. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two of them were released overnight and one was reported in good condition Friday.

Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to determine what happened and whether any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. Investigators were at the resort Friday interviewing the retreat director, staff and guests, including some who told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the multi-day program.

A woman who answered the phone at the resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. A call to the Hamilton's home went unanswered.

Authorities said self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility and was hosting the group inside the dome, a low-lying structure covered with tarps and blankets. In a testimonial on the retreat's Web site, Ray said it "offers an ideal environment for my teachings and our participants."

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

A spokesman for Ray, Howard Bragman, confirmed that Ray was holding an event at the retreat, as he has done in the past.

"We express our deepest condolences to those who lost friends and family, but we pray for a speedy recovery for those who took ill," said Bagman. "At this point there are more questions than answers, so it would not be appropriate to comment further."

On Ray's Web site, a guide for participants of the five-day "Spiritual Warrior Event" includes a lengthy release of liability that acknowledges participants may suffer "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Doerksen, whose fire district responded to emergency calls, said he sent a hazardous materials team into the sweat lodge to test for carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and other contaminants. The test "didn't show anything out of the ordinary," he said.

The Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center, built on former ranch property in the high-desert and red-rock country of northern Arizona, bills itself as a natural environment for self discovery and healing through a holistic approach aimed at balancing the mind, emotions, body and spirit.

The property includes American Indian structures such as teepees, guest houses and outdoor labyrinths made of stones.

Associated Press Writer Jacques Billeaud contributed to this report.

[Anonymous]

:birthday:

[try another castle]

This isnt new. The reason kids are subjected to this shit is because it looked so fancy and sparkly to adults, they decided to implement it in the program.

If it weren't for EST and lifespring and motivational speakers/LGATs in general, we wouldnt have as much of  this shit.

[Whooter]

Oh, come off it!  How many people have never built (or been in) a sweat lodge before at least once in their lives?  95% of people living in the north have experienced this as a kid or at a college outing, its nothing new.  As an adult it would be a nice experience to go to a retreat where someone else builds the sweat lodge and maintains the fire so that you can enjoy it and then just head back to your room afterwards without having to clean everything up.
This is far from a program or cult idea.

[Anonymous]

try another.. yup! uh huh! est, the forum, esalen, etc,etc, etc, ad nauseum. Dangerous as hell. prolific as hell, too. Critical thinking is hard work, so most are unwilling., why bother when you've got Oprah and dr. phil to tell ya what to think and feel

[try another castle]

I think the op was speaking more towards the whole co-opting of something like a sweat lodge, and have it be used for a bunch of stupid assed new agers.

Cultural warfare is nothing new, and indians are always such a hot commodity when it comes to things like sports teams, sleepaway camp, legalized gambling, and getting in touch with your spirit animal. It is certainly nothing new when it comes to people of new age, hippie ilk.


Anyway, we had our very own redskin fetish-fest at CEDU. The Ishi expedition. Complete with sweat lodge. Invite only.

Nothing evil or wrong about a sweat lodge. But its definitely one of those "features" you may discover present at your favorite program. Along with a copy of the prophet, or some other shit that has nothing to do with the program. BUT.. there is still a reason why those particular things seem to get assimilated so much, and so inappropriately, in the name of mental health or therapy.

Sorry man, but if you aint an indian, you got no business using a sweat lodge to get in touch with your spiritual side. I mean, you can, but dont expect anything special, except for a lighter wallet. And hell, they are a great wet sauna, but the blue corn maiden is NOT going to speak to you, so just forget it.

Man, one of my favorite snarky films is The New Age with Judy Davis and Peter Weller. It's fucking out of print and I am sooo bummed. It's hilarious.

[Whooter]

Been reading here for years and never knew that programs used sweat lodges as part of their program.  I use to build them growing up on trips to Maine and as a teenager it was a great experience striping down and hanging out until we were intoxicated by too much weed and wine or not enough oxygen... laughing about how the Indians had the good life.
I am a little curious now of how programs used this.  Did they have the kids sit in sweat lodges for long periods?  Because if they are not built properly or controlled that could be very dangerous.  I wouldnt want my kid in there unless there were professionals around overseing the lodges.

[try another castle]

Been reading here for years and never knew that programs used sweat lodges as part of their program.  I use to build them growing up on trips to Maine and as a teenager it was a great experience striping down and hanging out until we were intoxicated by too much weed and wine or not enough oxygen... laughing about how the Indians had the good life.
I am a little curious now of how programs used this.  Did they have the kids sit in sweat lodges for long periods?  Because if they are not built properly or controlled that could be very dangerous.  I wouldnt want my kid in there unless there were professionals around overseing the lodges.

Nope, the lodge at CEDU was fine, as far as I knew. (Large tarp + fire + hole for fire + crap to hold up tarp) We weren't in there overly long, not any longer than when we hung out in the sauna at the pond. Seemed to be built ok. The guy in charge of the Ishi was a total indian-fetishist, so he studied that shit good.

He was also a lecherous slug and ended up sleeping with a student.

So... you can see why a sweat lodge can certainly pass safety and structure muster and still  be a creepy experience, right? It has about 100% to do with who's in the fucking lodge, sweating their ass off next to you, bathing suit or no. It was just gross. I didn't want to be crammed next to any of these people, especially sweaty. At least the sauna at the pond had space for people to spread out on the benches.

And it stands as yet another stupid attempt at appropriating shit that had no business being there.

[try another castle]

Oprah

Speaking of someone who needs to be in a sweat lodge.... for about a decade.

Problem is shell come back out talking about how great it was and then her advice will, once again, get a bunch of people killed.

[Ursus]

Re-post of the OP:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The Associated Press
2 Die, 19 Overcome at Arizona Retreat Sweat Lodge
2 die, 19 others taken to hospitals after being overcome at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge

By FELICIA FONSECA Associated Press Writer
PHOENIX October 9, 2009 (AP)


This undated photo provided by the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office shows a "sweatbox" structure at Angel Valley  resort in Sedona, Ariz. Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals Thursday Oct. 8, 2009, after being overcome while sitting in the sauna-like sweat lodge, authorities said. (AP Photo/Yavapai County Sheriff's Office) (AP)

 A sauna-like sweat lodge at an Arizona  resort meant to provide spiritual cleansing became the scene of a police investigation Friday when more than a dozen people became ill during a two-hour session and two later died.

In all, 21 of the 64 people crowded inside the sweat lodge Thursday evening received medical care at hospitals and a fire station. Four remained hospitalized Friday evening — one in critical condition and the others in fair condition.

Authorities haven't determined the cause of the deaths and illnesses; tests for carbon monoxide and other contaminants were negative. Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said authorities were checking into whether any of the attendees had medical conditions or were fasting.

Among those sickened were a middle-aged man and a woman who were unconscious, according to a 911 call, and a third person who was found not breathing.

"It's not something you'd normally see at one of the resorts there, and it's unfortunate regardless of the cause," D'Evelyn said.

Investigators were working to determine whether criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center sits on 70 acres nestled in a scrub forest just outside Sedona, a resort town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

Self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility as part of his "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that began Oct. 3 and that promised to "absolutely change your life."

Ray spokesman Howard Bragman confirmed that his client was holding an event at the retreat, as he has done in the past. Authorities said Ray was inside the sweat lodge Thursday evening and was interviewed at the scene.

"We express our deepest condolences to those who lost friends and family, but we pray for a speedy recovery for those who took ill," Bragman said. "At this point there are more questions than answers, so it would not be appropriate to comment further."


Two people are dead and several others were injured after collapsing at a Northern Arizona retreat center Thursday, officials said. Sedona Fire Department Spokesperson Gary Johnson  said officials responded to a call at Angel Valley  Retreat Center around 5 p.m. Thursday, when multiple people collapsed after exiting a sweat lodge on the property. (KNXV/ABC News)

Sweat lodges, like that held on the final day of the Angel Valley retreat, are commonly used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events. The structure used Thursday was crudely built and covered with tarps and blankets.

Stones are heated up outside a lodge, brought inside and placed in a pail-sized hole. The door is closed, and water is poured on the stones, producing heat aimed at releasing toxins in the body.

The ritual in sweat lodges is helpful in restoring balance and changing people's attitudes and self-image, said Joseph Bruchac, author of "The Native American Sweat Lodge: History and Legends."

People have died in sweat lodges in the past. They were either sick tribal elders who voluntarily stayed until they died or people who had heart conditions and were in poor health.

"The sweat lodge needs to be respected," Bruchac said. "When you imitate someone's tradition and you don't know what you are doing, there's a danger of doing something very wrong."

Ray's retreat schedule had few details about what participants could expect, other than thrice-daily meals and group gatherings that started at 7 a.m. and ended 16 hours later.

The details came in a lengthy release of liability that acknowledges participants may suffer "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries" while hiking or swimming, or during a multi-day personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness without food or water or the sweat lodge.

Some participants told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the event. Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

Ray's posting on his Twitter account hours before the deaths said: "Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

The posting and two others were deleted Friday afternoon.

A woman who answered the phone at the Angel Valley resort Friday said its founders, Michael and Amayra Hamilton, would have no comment. A call to the Hamiltons' home went unanswered.

The Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center, built on former ranch property in the high-desert and red-rock country of northern Arizona, bills itself as a natural environment for self discovery and healing through a holistic approach aimed at balancing the mind, emotions, body and spirit.

The property includes American Indian structures such as teepees, guest houses and outdoor labyrinths made of stones.

———

Associated Press Writer Jacques Billeaud also contributed to this report.


Copyright 2010 The Associated Press.

[Ursus]

Comments for the above article, "2 Die, 19 Overcome at Arizona Retreat Sweat Lodge" (By Felicia Fonseca; October 9, 2009; Associated Press):


Posted by: FormerJewNowWiccan · 10/9/09:

It is my opinion that someone placed herbs in the lodge, where the rocks are heated and steam comes up, and those herbs caused everyone to get sick and the 2 to die. This was done either deliberately or the person using the herbs picked the wrong one.

Posted by: etbrand9 · 10/9/09:

Transform? Heal? Nourish? Ummmmm. Unless death does all three to us humans.

Posted by: goldstar3143 · 10/9/09:

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. All for what? A little spirituality. Go work in an orphanage for a while. That will make you spiritual.

Posted by: GMJ4201 · 10/9/09:

If they had the right herbs they would all be eating Pizza and chilling out! thats my opinion - LEGALIZE IT !!

Posted by: BAM-BAM 7 · 10/9/09:

maybe the hippy / newage movement will learn from this and FINALLY realize that they SHOULD NOT copy / reproduce / sell / disrespect or mock such a SACRED ceremony .. the sweatlodge ceremony is a native-american ceremony that is conducted ONLY by a pipe-carrier or medicine man of native- american descent.. not by some dope-smoking hippy, not by someone who just " found out that they have indian blood from their grandmother " , not by going to a geneology website and " becoming " native all of a sudden, not by osmosis, not by a non-native who ONCE WENT to a native ceremony, etc.. the sacred sweatlodge ceremony should only be conducted by a trained native elder. this training comes in various ways, too sacred to talk about here. it is NOT a diploma or a right. it is a privilige given only to a few worthy teachers. the lodge can be dangerous if conducted by the WRONG person. these new-age people usually no NOTHING of the spiritual aspects of native ceremonies.people that go to ceremonies should and must be 100 % drug/ alcohol free. no exceptions. i have never been to this " retreat " in arizona, but trust me, i have seen it ALL before. fancy high-dollar resorts, hippy camps,etc. these people in charge have NO IDEA what they are doing. they should not offer native american style services.if someone truly wants to learn native ways , they should go to the reservations, look for a traditional elder, make an offering ( tobacco ) , and ask for help, healing, prayers, etc. IF you are sincere that elder might help you. sometimes we are distrustful of non-natives. ( can you really blame us ? ) .. that resort in arizona should stick with mudbaths,etc. stuff they know. i am of MICMAC descent, i have been to sweatlodges all over north america, and i have NEVER heard of someone dying as a result of attending a sweat. not a real one. i have heard of and seen great healings as a result of attending sweats.by the way , money is never charged at a REAL native ceremony... BAM-BAM, MICMAC NATION

Posted by: Indigenous coyote · 10/9/09:

As a Native American and have been pouring water at a sweat lodge for the past 27 years and know that when done in a proper manner and not for profit such as some do it is a enlightening experiance and it seems that the one in Sedona was too extreme with that many individuals at one time and the amount of rocks and length inside should be in moderation. There is a manner in which it is said to whoever is conducting to "Pour to your weakest link" meaning not to get it strong enough to harm the individual who may appear to be having difficulties while in side. Some think the Stronger the better yet you always have to look out for the one individual who may not fare as strong as others and cater to their strengths. To all relations

Posted by: ne-wa-ya-was-ena · 10/9/09:

Many people attempt to take from the Native American Indian when they have never lived that path. A path you cannot learn in a day or a week or a month or . . . It is a walk of a sacred road we know and hold many shields to protect it and those shields are never for sale or taking. Don't look to others' beliefs for your spiritual path journey, Creator has given you your way to find, look within. Remember the giveaway is most sacred but it has nothing to do with white-man dollars. I too have been in many sweat lodges for many years but I am native and learned well the red path from elders before me and the Great Creator not a money grubber. We have been at war now for 577 years against those that would steal or buy our secrets to the sacred path. Will you never learn, Our Ways Are Not For Sale. i-gi-utsa-ani-yun-waya-tsalagi

Posted by: MD_Mickey · 10/9/09:

ne-wa-ya-was-ena wrote: "Many people attempt to take from the Native American Indian when they have never lived that path." +++++ Additionally, many con-artists try to portray themselves as experts in native, "natural" healing - whether it's Native American, Chinese Traditional Medicine, or European traditional herbalism, and don't actually know what they're doing - except that they're ripping people off. For example, a Chinese doctor, trained in both Eastern and Western medicine, who lectured my tour group on a Yangtze River Cruise, explained that some Chinese methods have always been considered "preventive" medicine only: like Tai Chi for stress relief - and Western medicine acknowledges that stress causes many illnesses (I did it every morning under an expert's direction as we sailed through the Three Gorges - and it works!). But in America you see many of them portrayed as "cures".

Posted by: the elephant man · 10/9/09:

sounds like a cult

Posted by: Colorado mountain girl · 10/9/09:

Sad really. I feel sorry for the "seekers" who feel and emptyness in their souls and are so looking for the right path to heal them. I know it takes much trust from a native elder to share any teachings with us white newcomers and rightly so perhaps. Many are flippant and unfocused. Looking for a quick fix to the ills of the soul that they embody. To truely seek we must show great respect and earn the right to have someone share teachings with us. It makes no sense to try to replicate a ceremony such as the sweat lodge without the guidence of a true elder or medicine man, for without such the exercise is ritual devoid of the spark of magic that such an individual brings to the service. A hollow reinactment at best. A sacrement at worse.

Posted by: TOMAS1234Y · 10/9/09:

Who wants to be in a saunna with 64 people? Not me.

Posted by: Cherrikey · 10/9/09:

After reading the story and seeing the pictures ...it stands to reason that people got hurt because they didn't cover the lodge correctly. You NEVER cover a lodge with plastic or tarps!! Not to mention, you NEVER pay to go into a sweat. This is what happens when people play with stuff they don't understand.

Posted by: oonogil2 · 10/10/09:

Jijalagi. Oonogil dawado. There are as many different Native American religions as there are tribes. Some sweat, some sundance, some do other things. These are things that are sacred to our people. They aren't something neat to do on vacation so you'll have a story to tell your friends. Be content to attend a pow-wow if it's open to the public. Buy some fry bread mix and tell us about your grandmother who was a Cherokee princess. Paying a charlatan for a sweat lodge is a waste of money at best. At worst, it's a waste of a life. .... My condolences to the families and friends. Please don't blame Indians. I doubt if any were there.

Posted by: Edmund_Dantes- · 10/10/09:

I am sure that it was the wrong coverings or coverings that had been on there for so long that they built up black mold or mildew. Toxins from plastic and other chemically treated coverings could become overwhelming upon the heavy duty sweat sessions of normal sweat lodges. An autopsy with focus on the lungs will probably provide the quick answers.

Posted by: Publius_2K · 10/10/09:

"An autopsy with focus on the lungs will probably provide the quick answers." - Edmund_Dantes. Mold and mildew wouldn't be necessary to kill someone. Heat build-up in the body would be enough, and sitting in hot steam so that your perspiration couldn't evaporate and cool you down could do that. Soak in a hot tub long enough to raise your core body temperature and the same thing can happen to you. Just a few degreee is enough to kill you. I tend to think that the "visions" some get from these sort of experiences are not different from heat-induced delirium and hallucinations.

Posted by: BAM-BAM 7 · 10/10/09:

do you think james ray ( the white self- proclaimed healer, prophet, guru, etc. ) will be attending the funerals of any of the people he killed in his hippy lodge? i doubt it. not unless the next of kin cough up another 9,000 bucks for his " holiness " to make an appearance. .... also, i just came from this guys website- jamesray.com.. WHAT A JOKE !!!! why do people fall for such fairy tales?? this guy mostly just teaches about money and it's sacredness. he mentions money or financial wealth even when he's " trying " to talk spiritually. he also mentions some of his experiences in south america and around natives. to me, he made it sound like being around natives was a chore and unpleasant. he was there on a mission to learn a couple of native tricks so he could start selling them in the usa.. ... i would NEVER go in a hippy lodge like his or ANY OTHER hippylodge. i only go to the sacred nativelodge.. but honestly, i do wonder- does this ray and his followers chant songs to the " money-gods " in their lodge? ! ? ! .. ....... BAM-BAM, MICMAC NATION

Posted by: CountyCook · 10/11/09:

My sympathy to all those who participated in this retreat.64 people paying $9,000.00 each = $576,000.00. Not a bad income for a weekend of "spiritual work." I commend the participants for trying to follow a spiritual path. Looking forward, I recommend that we all stay spiritually and physically attuned to the stench of greed. If you arrive at a retreat, and it doesn't feel right, just leave. Trust yourself, trust your own instincts, not some guru. For sixty-four people, Mr. Ray should have prepared five or more lodges. Charles-m

Posted by: MrsMom35 · 10/12/09:

My sympthy goes out to all families involved. Mr. Ray has alot of explaining to do...... but we all know he is hiding behind his lawyers/advisors... You know he has the best working for him, how much does he make again? To all his followers... I will suggest therapy maybe? Talk to someone who is qualiied and find out what is missing or what you think is missing.... You do not need to be rich or make somene rich be spiritual......

Posted by: MrsMom35 · 10/12/09:

My symath to all the families involved, now it time to find out what is missing or what people think they are missing that would make them turn to someone like Mr. Ray. You do not need to pay to be spiritual or be accepted by God.

Posted by: VictorVictorious001 · 10/12/09:

James Ray is not guilty of murder. He isn't guilty of anything. All 64 people drove to that location of their own free will and they all hopped into a hot tent (oven) of their own free will. Each human being on this planet is responsible for their own safety when they have a choice. These people had a choice. No rights were taken away or violated. They were just STUPID. If you are to convict James Ray for the choices that these people made (which ended in their own death), then you are descriminating against freedom of religion. It doesn't matter what the outcome is. Who says it has to be a happy outcome? Besides, what happened to everyone's religious faith? Actually, from a religious perspective, I would have to say that everything went off extraordinarily well! What more could religious people want than to have two mortal souls die and go to heaven? Isn't that ultimately what religious people are hoping for? No matter WHAT religious people get, they are always complaining about their rights or the failure of an outcome according to their own expectations. Well, isn't it "God" who keeps telling religious people that they don't make decisions for "him" and that it isn't up to them to decide what is best? OK THEN... so, two very stupid people out of 63 very stupid people (and one very smart man... James Ray who got paid 1/2 million dollars for the weekend outing) are dead while the world or religion complains and wrongfully accuses a man of murder. Hey, don't mess with religion because if you do, you are talking about religious descrimination here! I would say it went quite perfectly, myself. The intent, of course, was to "wash their bodies clean" of "whatever." Well now... who is anyone to judge what "God" must have seen in those two dead bodies "souls" the "he" saw it necessary to "take them to heaven" (or cast them to hell). You can't second guess "God" is what religious people always say... until something goes wrong. Where is faith now?!

Posted by: Parvati1008 · 10/14/09:

I find it offensive this is even being called a "sweat lodge"! I agree 100% with Bam Bam and many of the other postings. Where is the cover story from the Native American point of view? I've been in very hot lodges with many people with the results being healing and nothing close to an injury. why? it was run by a true medicine man. Mitakuye Oaysin

Posted by: Parvati1008 · 10/14/09:

I'm offended this is even referred to as a sweat lodge...I agree with Bam Bam and many of the other postings. Where is the cover story from the Native American perspective. I've participated in lodges aka inipis for 20 years in incredible hot climates, hot lodges, with often many people. the results were only healing never harm. why? medicine men were running the lodge.

Posted by: stormthecastleneville · 10/16/09:

To VictorVictorious... How can you say that these people were stupid? Did you know them? Why don't you tell that to the beautiful wife and 3 gorgeous small children that James left behind? These "stupid people" as you call them, put their trust and faith into a man that was supposed to be looking out for their best interest in healing. I am appalled that people like you so righteously speak about things like this, like you have a direct line with God to know the answer. His children are divine enough to know that their father had a higher purpose to serve and is the reason that he can't be with them anymore; but I can assure you that this was not a stupid man. He was the most sensitive, gentle man I ever met and you should be ashamed to cast judgement in one sentence, and then speak of the almighty judge in another. Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself.

Posted by: chaosdee69 · 10/19/09:

The sweat lodge is a very sacred and holy place. You cant just run a sweat because you read a book. It takes years of preperation to be given the right to run a sweat. It would be like me going to a church and standing up in front of the congregation and saying I'm your preacher now listen to me without any formal training. Look I am very sorry that these people were injured and died, but maybe now the white world will realize that being a Native American is a fad or a joke. For us it is not a religion it is a way of life that cant be converted to. There are some who are adopted and truly understand, but unfortunately there are many who dont get it. This man is a criminal and if he is truly a leader than he will stand up and be accountable for his horrific mistake and obvious lack of good judgement. As I was saying you can convert to Judaism, christianity, catholocism, Hindu, Muslim, Mormonism, you name it you can convert, except for Native American Spirituality. Maybe now people will understand before any more innocent and naive people get hurt.

Posted by: QTEEPIE13 · 10/19/09:

3 men collapse, die in marathon- Will Detroit be sued for the 3 men that died running the marathon?

Posted by: crownnumber39 · 10/30/09:

These people have gotten completely carried away with themselves. A little fame leads to fortune, and then the fortune turns to greed. The very people who are "preaching" these philosophies have been seduced by their hunger for power and wealth. It is so sad that people lost their lives at this event. And so stupid that people paid $9000 to attend the event in the first place, and support the ongoing, ridiculous greed and misuse of power of people like James Ray. In this case, my apologies as a white person to the Native Americans and their rituals that have been subject to abuse by ignorant persons who have no idea who they are. I lived in Hawaii for years, and I was humbled by the Hawaiians and their rituals. I learned about them out of respect so that I could have understanding. However, I never pretended to be a Hawaiian. I did see it all around me though. As so the 3 men dying in the marathon--you cannot compare that to this. Well, perhaps on the stupidity level you can. James Ray should be prosecuted for murder. He had no idea what he was doing.

Copyright © 2010 ABC News Internet Ventures.

[Whooter]

What you describe sounds very similar.
We use to vacation up in a remote part of Maine on the Canadian border and would construct what we called a Sweat Lodge.  We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled with stones.  We were all teenagers mostly meeting others who were vacationing and also some locals and the rule was no clothes but the girls would wear towels or over-sized men shirts usually.  We use to smoke and then solve all the worlds problems.  When we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in.  We used to feel so good afterwards.  We slept like babies and would talk about it the whole next day.  Some of the kids from the city would freak out and go home.  I think it was just too much of a culture shock, being around trees was enough stimulation for them.  So I think how a person reacts depends on where they are coming from.

Looking back the magical effect was caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

We came up with some of the best ideas during those summers.  I could see how people could try to develop that into a therapy of sorts.


...

[DannyB II]

Sitting Bull, a Hunkpapa Lakota chief and holy man, (Tatanka Iyotake) his birth name.

Danny wrote:
Sitting Bull was said to be a Chief that carried the burdens of his people within his soul and released the pain his tribe endured through sweating. This I cannot document, I heard prior to entering a sweat in So.Dakota.
The sweat lodge was considered " mothers womb". Mother being earth, Mothers Earth.

Sitting Bull spoke:
I am a red man. If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and different desires. Each man is good in his sight. It is not necessary for Eagles to be Crows. We are poor... but we are free. No white man controls our footsteps. If we must die...we die defending our rights.

Danny wrote:
I am beginning to believe some may feel they were natives, at least treated that way.

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_lodge  
Etiquette;
The most important part of sweat lodge etiquette is respecting the traditions of the lodge leader. Some lodges take place in complete silence, while others involve singing, chanting, drumming, or other sound. It is important to know what is allowed and expected before entering a lodge. Traditional tribes hold a high value of respect to the lodge. In some cultures, objects, including clothing, without a ceremonial significance are discouraged from being brought into the lodge. Most traditional tribes place a high value on modesty as a respect to the lodge. In clothed lodges, women are usually expected to wear skirts or short-sleeved dresses of a longer length. In some traditions, nudity is forbidden, as are mixed sex sweats, whereas in others nudity is considered to have a greater connection with the spiritual aspect of your sweat. Some lodge leaders do not allow menstruating women. Perhaps the most important piece of etiquette is gratitude. It is important to be thankful to the purpose of the sweat, the people joining you in the lodge, and those helping to support the sweat lodge.

[Ursus]

What you describe sounds very similar.
We use to vacation up in a remote part of Maine on the Canadian border and would construct what we called a Sweat Lodge.  We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled with stones.  We were all teenagers mostly meeting others who were vacationing and also some locals and the rule was no clothes but the girls would wear towels or over-sized men shirts usually.  We use to smoke and then solve all the worlds problems.  When we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in.  We used to feel so good afterwards.  We slept like babies and would talk about it the whole next day.  Some of the kids from the city would freak out and go home.  I think it was just too much of a culture shock, being around trees was enough stimulation for them.  So I think how a person reacts depends on where they are coming from.

Looking back the magical effect was caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.

We came up with some of the best ideas during those summers.  I could see how people could try to develop that into a therapy of sorts.

You really think it's so similar? Here's one key difference:

"When we got too hot we would jump in the lake..."[/list]

I take it you didn't have some newage guru of "personal power" exhorting you to ignore your body's signals of distress and tough out the vomiting and passing out ... all in the name of being a good "spiritual warrior," eh?

Also, at least two of the comments above mentioned the plastic tarps covering the lodge structure. Doesn't sound like there was a whole lot of oxygen replenishment going on. Moreover, it looks like that lodge was barely high enough to stand up in, if that, and with ~60+ people inside...

Apparently, just hours before these deaths occurred, James Arthur Ray's Twitter account read:

"Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"[/list]

[DannyB II]

http://www.barefootsworld.net/sweatlodge.html

The Native American Sweatlodge
A Spiritual Tradition

A Crow sweat lodge.--Museum of the American Indian

The Sweat Lodge Ceremony, now central to most Native American cultures and spiritual life, is an adaptation of the sweat bath common to many ethnic cultures found in North and South America, Asia, Eastern and Western Europe, and Africa. It was prompted by the influence of European culture with its corrupting effect on native culture. With the introduction of alcohol and the inhumane treatment of native people, the need to re-purify themselves and find their way back to traditional ways of living became evident, as they were becoming increasingly poisoned by European culture. The Sweat Lodge Ceremony was the answer.

With the help of Medicine Men and Women, they could repair the damage done to their spirits, their minds and their bodies. The Sweat Lodge is a place of spiritual refuge and mental and physical healing, a place to get answers and guidance by asking spiritual entities, totem helpers, the Creator and Mother Earth for the needed wisdom and power.

A traditional Sweat Lodge is a wickiup made up of slender withes of aspen or willow, or other supple saplings, lashed together with raw hide, or grass or root cordage, although in some areas the lodge was constructed of whatever materials were at hand, from a mud roofed pit house to a cedar bark and plank lodge. The ends of the withes are set into the ground in a circle, approximately 10 feet in diameter, although there is no set size for a Sweat Lodge. That is determined by the location, materials available and the builder. The withes are bent over and lashed to form a low domed framework approximately 4 - 5 feet high at the center. The pit in the center is about 2 feet in diameter and a foot deep. The floor of the lodge may be clean swept dirt, or natural grassy turf, or may be covered with a mat of sweetgrass, soft cedar boughs, or sage leaves for comfort and cleanliness, kept away from the central pit.

The lodge in former times was covered with the hides of buffalo, bear or moose. In this day, the animal skins have been replaced with blankets, plastic sheeting, old carpet, heavy gauge canvas sheets and tarps to retain the heat and the steam.

In many traditions the entrance to the sweat lodge faces to the East and the sacred fire pit. This has very significant spiritual value. Each new day for all begins in the East with the rising of Father Sun, the source of life and power, dawn of wisdom, while the fire heating the rocks is the undying light of the world, eternity, and it is a new spiritual beginning day that we seek in the sweat ceremony.

Between the entrance to the lodge and the sacred fire pit, where the stones are heated, is an altar barrier, beyond which none may pass except the lodge or fire keepers, to prevent participants from accidently falling into the fire as they emerge from sweat. Traditionally this barrier altar is a buffalo or other skull atop a post, placed about 3 paces from the entrance and 3 paces from the fire, to warn of the danger. At the base of the post is a small raised earthen altar upon which are placed items sacred to the group or clan, sage, sweetgrass, feathers, etc., bordered with the four colors, and a pipe rack for the chanunpa.

Common to all traditions, and the sweat, is the ideal of spiritual cleanliness. Many sweats start with the participants fasting for an entire day of contemplation in preparation for the sweat while avoiding caffeine, alcohol and other unhealthy substances. Prior to entering the sweat the participants usually smudge with sage, sweetgrass or cedar smoke as a means toward ritual cleanliness.

Bringing personal sacred items is allowed but some rules apply. Items such as Eagle feathers, whistles and medicine pouches are allowed and welcomed. You should not bring anything that is not natural into the Sweat Lodge, such as: watches, ear rings, gold, silver, eye glasses, false teeth, etc. In many cultures a female on her moon is not allowed into the sweat, but in some they are.

A Sweat Ceremony in many traditions usually starts with the loading and offering of the sacred chanunpa ~ "peace pipe" ~ in prayer, that the participants may know and speak the truth in their supplications of Grandfather, Earth Mother and the spirits. In other traditions, when you are called upon to go into the sweat lodge you will have some tobacco to offer to the sacred fire, saying a prayer or asking a question, the smoke from the tobacco carrying your request to the Great Spirit. As you prepare to enter the lodge the sweat leader smudges you with the smoke of burning sage, cedar, or sweetgrass, wafting the smoke over you with an eagle feather. You then crawl into the lodge in a sun-wise (clockwise) direction, bowing in humility to Great Spirit and in close contact with Earth Mother, and take your place in the circle, sitting crosslegged upright against the wall of the lodge.

When all are inside the sweat leader calls upon the doorkeeper to drop the flap covering the lodge opening. The lodge becomes dark, and at this point the lodge leader announces that all are free to leave the lodge at any time if they cannot endure. (If you must leave, speak out "Mitakuye Oyasin," "All my relatives." The other participants will move away from the wall so that you may pass behind them as you leave in a clockwise direction.) He then asks for a short, contemplative silence. After the brief silence the flap is raised, and the leader calls upon the fire tender to bring in the heated stones from the sacred fire.

The Stone People spirits are awakened in the stones by heating them in the sacred fire until red-hot. They are swept clean with a pine or cedar bough to remove smoking embers which would cause irritating discomfort in the lodge. One at a time they are placed in the shallow pit inside the sweat lodge, placing first the stone on the west, then north, east, south, and in the center to Grandfather. Additional stones are then placed to Grandmother and The People. After four to seven stones are in the pit, depending on tradition (and probably the size of the stones), the entrance is closed and sealed by the Sweat Lodge Keeper, who generally is also the fire tender.

Aglow with the luminance of the red hot stones, the ceremony begins in the lodge. The sweat leader sounds the Water Drum and calls forth the spirit guides in prayer from the Four Directions. The sweat leader then dips water and pours it onto the hot stones in the pit, producing large amounts of steam, usually one dipper for each of the four directions, or until he is told by the spirits to stop. Then he begins his prayers, songs and chants.

A typical prayer might be:
Grandfather, Mysterious One,
We search for you along this
Great Red Road you have set us on.

Sky Father, Tunkashila,
We thank you for this world.
We thank you for our own existence.
We ask only for your blessing and for your instruction.

Grandfather, Sacred One,
Put our feet on the holy path that leads to you,
and give us the strength and the will
to lead ourselves and our children
past the darkness we have entered.
Teach us to heal ourselves,
to heal each other and to heal the world.

Let us begin this very day,
this very hour,
the Great Healing to come.
Let us walk the Red Road in Peace.

During the purification of one's spirit inside a sweat lodge, all sense of race, color and religion is set aside. As in the Mother's womb and the Father's eyes, we are all the same, we are One. Each of us has the ability to sit with the Creator himself. Healing begins here for dis-ease, physical, emotional, directional and spiritual.

As the steam and temperature rises so do our senses. Messages and vision from the Spirit World are received through the group consciousness of the participants. One at a time, as a talking stick is passed, all the people inside get an opportunity to speak, to pray and to ask for guidance and forgiveness from the Creator and the people they have hurt. As they go around the circle, they tell who they are, where they are from, and what is their clan, so the Creator, the Spirit People, and all there can acknowledge them.

A sweat is typically four sessions, called rounds or endurances, each lasting about 30 to 45 minutes. The round ends when the leader announces the opening of the door.

The first round is for recognition of the spirit world which resides in the black West where the sun goes down, and the Creator may be asked for a "spirit guide" by some of the participants.

The second round is for recognition of courage, endurance, strength, cleanliness, and honesty, calling upon the power of the white North.

The recognition of knowledge and individual prayer symbolize the third round, praying to the direction of the daybreak star and the rising sun that we may gain wisdom, that we may follow the Red Road of the East in all our endeavors.

The yellow South stands for growth and healing. Thus, the last round centers on spiritual growth and healing. From our spirit guides from the west, from the courage, honesty and endurance of the north, from the knowledge and wisdom obtained from the east, we continue the circle to the south from which comes growth. It is from growth and maturing that healing comes.

At the completion of each round, the participants may emerge, if desired, to plunge into an adjacent pool or stream if one is available, or roll in the snow if the sweat is held in winter. In arid areas the participants roll in the sand to cool off and remove the sweat. Many participants maintain their places in the lodge until completion of the fourth round, while the cooled stones in the pit are removed and replaced with hot stones.

There are many different forms of sweat ceremonies in Indian country. Each people has their own tradition and this is especially clear when it comes to the sweat lodge ceremony. Many differences, depending on the people participating, occur during each ritual. For instance, many times rounds are held in complete silence and meditation as the participants feel the need. At other less intense times, a round may be devoted to story telling and recounting of the clan's creation stories. This is all part of spiritual and emotional healing and growth. Respect, sincerity, humility, the ability to listen and slow down are all key in the way you approach ceremony.

Who Sweats and Why?

The sweat lodge ceremony usually occurs before and after other major rituals like the "Vision Quest" for example. The aim of the ceremony is to purify one's mind, body, spirit and heart. It is also a "stand alone" ritual that it occurs whenever it is needed. Sweat lodge essentially translates into returning to the womb and the innocence of childhood. The lodge is dark, moist, hot and safe. The darkness relates to human ignorance before the spiritual world and so much of the physical world.

Traditionally it was only the men who would sweat. As time has passed and the lodge has evolved, other levels have been shown. The sweat lodge has given many gifts and shown itself as a way to not only cleanse, but to release anger, guilt and shame in a safe way, and to bring people together as ONE. These days women sweat also, provided they are not on their moon time or cleansing time already. Men can sweat separately and women can sweat separately, or there can be mixed sweats where men and women both participate. The Elder or Lodge Keeper running the ceremony according to their teachings will determine this.

Observing very strict protocols while in ceremony are key. Men and women must both practice modesty in their dress when they come to ceremony. Sweat lodge is not a fashion show, nor is it a place for vanity or to get a date. This is a sacred place to pray, meditate, learn and heal, and that must be the focus.

Unlike "New Age" sweats we do not go in naked when men and women are present. It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable with our bodies, as some would have us believe. Rather it is about not confusing spirituality with sexuality, and creating a safe place where all people feel comfortable. Men, women, boys and girls can all benefit from the lodges. Modesty is to be practiced in our dress, meaning that men wear shorts and bring a couple of towels to cover themselves and the women wear modest dress or long skirt with a loose T-shirt and a couple of towels.

We must always walk the Red Road in a way that honors others' views and teachings without sacrificing our own. All of these ways are good, none is better or worse than the other.

We need to unite all of the races and both of the sexes if we are going to be strong and the Sacred Hoop is to be mended. Every form of spirituality goes through change. This evolution reflects the changing needs of the community and of our environment. Anything that will not change risks isolating itself from the people. Water is life and changes everything, even the hardest stone. The change that is needed is turning towards each other instead of away from one another. If we ceremony together, we heal together, we laugh together, live and love together.

If you are invited to a sweat, the 24 hours previous to the sweat should be spent in cleansing, fasting, prayer and meditation on the intended purpose of the sweat, and you should be free from drugs and alcohol. For the greatest spiritual benefit, these conditions should be met.

If you would like to know more of what happens in a sweat lodge ceremony the answer is quite simple:
Attend one. It will be different than the last one you attended.

And so it is . . .
Hokh! Mitakuye o’yasin. Hecetu welo !! . . . All my relatives, it is indeed so..!!