Long-Term Outcome Studies

[try another castle]

I mean we can look up the license of any of the Aspen therapists but we can’t do that for Dysfunction Junction. We just need to take his word for it

Good to know that the hacking skills of programmies is sub-par.


Studies my ass. I'd kill for a real study, and Ive been talking about it for ages.

There are two types of studies:

1. A study that is deliberately slanted to agree with the hypothesis of the party financing the study
2. A study that is independent and run by sociologists, using scientific method. Financiers  play no part in reinforcing any sort of hypothesis. It is investigative.

For instance. I want a study. The main reason I want a study is to really get some solid numbers on WHATEVER the deal is. That's why I want it, for fucks sake, to determine what the hell is going on. I don't want to play any part in the process. That's what soc majors are for. I honestly wouldnt even know how to proceed in getting a control group and an experimental group.

Regardless of what your feelings are, you are trying to establish a CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP. This involves more than just interviews, testimony and such bullshit about how it saved the life of your twat. This involves scientific method.

For example:

http://www.skepdic.com/control.html

Nobody who is involved or survived the industry right now is equipped to create their own study. Even if they are a scientist or sociologist. They would have to recuse themselves, because of bias.

Programmies are scared to death of science.

[Anonymous]

Wow you actually provided a link!

you should read the link first!!

The therapist is licensed and needs to adhere to the HIPPA laws which they do. The counselors and staff who are not licensed do not need to adhere to these (see DJ misread it, the counselors and staff don’t need to be licensed). Aspen education knows this and you just choose to misinterpret the posting.

DJ tried to blur the difference between therapist and counselor, Nice try.

One of the struggles here with posters is differentiating between counselors/staff and therapists.  One is licensed by the state and the other doesnt need to be.  We all know that but you like to mislead the readers.... we all know that and that is why I am here.

One of the struggles here with you is your being too stupid to defend the Aspen Education Group torture cult you fed your boy too. Come up with better duplicities, Reuben.


There‘s no relevant distinction between a "therapist" and "counselor."  These terms are fairly interchangeable, and, anyway, to call yourself either one you need to have a LICENSE—something the people overseeing Pence’s "therapy" did not.

http://www.counselingseattle.com/consumer/2.htm

In this case, Aspen education program, plaintiff and judge use the terms "counselor" and "therapist" interchangeably about the woman in question.

NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a LICENSED counselor

Matthew Pence met with NorthStar COUNSELOR Trudy Godat sometime around 5:00 or 5:30PM on July 2, 2003.

Plaintiffs complain that Matthew Pence was seen by an unlicensed THERAPIST, Trudy Godat

Plaintiffs find the duty of confidentiality in Oregon's confidentiality statute, Oregon statutes regulating professional COUNSELORS, and the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). Oregon's confidentiality statutes provide only that a confidential relationship is not breached if a disclosure is permitted by state or federal law. Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.523; Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.520. Because she is not a LICENCED COUNSELOR and there is no evidence she is an employee of a licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees.

Aspen Education Group’s whole defense stands on the premise it NEVER promised to, NOR does it provide therapeutic treatment conformative to accepted medical practices, that it is not a treatment program for mental or drug disorders, by any legal definition, that the “counseling sessions” it provides are not therapeutic processes, and that the employees that provide them are not licensed therapists or medical personnel enough for it  to be libel  HIPPA statutes.

[Whooter]

Studies my ass. I'd kill for a real study, and Ive been talking about it for ages.

There are two types of studies:

1. A study that is deliberately slanted to agree with the hypothesis of the party financing the study
2. A study that is independent and run by sociologists, using scientific method. Financiers play no part in reinforcing any sort of hypothesis. It is investigative.

For instance. I want a study. The main reason I want a study is to really get some solid numbers on WHATEVER the deal is. That's why I want it, for fucks sake, to determine what the hell is going on. I don't want to play any part in the process. That's what soc majors are for. I honestly wouldnt even know how to proceed in getting a control group and an experimental group.

All of us would like to have as independent a study as possible done in every situation.  There are still people who will not accept any cancer treatments because the studies were overseen by the government or financed by the drug companies.  Some demand a private third party with no ties or advocates or to government agencies.

There are others who wouldn’t accept any study which showed the programs to be effective because their minds are made up.  There is always a way to discredit a study if you look hard enough.

Since we cannot control the studies we look at the source, read the study and determine for ourselves whether we accept it or not.  Some studies are done by the institutions themselves and others (like this one) is given to an independent consulting firm which specialises in this area.  I think it would be difficult to get a private donation to pay for the study and even then if the donor had a neighbor who attended a program many would think it dirty and toss it aside.
 
The studies are not intended to sway anyone’s opinion here on fornits... your minds are already made up for the most part and view anything positive about programs as being fabricated somehow.

[try another castle]

The studies are not intended to sway anyone’s opinion here on fornits...

The only opinions I give a flying fuck about are the opinions of parents (i.e. "customers"). I stand to benefit zero from a study, regardless of what it says. Im not a parent, and Ive been off the duck farm near 20 years now. I don't need a study to tell me what I went through. All of that is over.

However, WE (the collective we) need a study done, because parents keep sending kids there. These places make glowing promises. They pay PR people and stage their little "studies" which contain about as much science as a program contains certified, competent staff. There's testimony along both sides of the fence, and you know what? It's shit. It's all shit. You want to tell me it was great for your kid? You want to say you were abused? You want to recount how it saved your life? Fuck all of you. That's not worth shit. It's goddamn personal testimony, and it's crap, and no parent is going to listen to you unless it supports their preconceived notion. Fact is, when a parent is looking to send a kid away, it's rare that they change their mind. (It happens, but its rare.) Kids are property. Loved property, but still, property. Politicians are ass-suckers and I dont give a fuck what they do. (The less, the  better) All of this is in the hands of parents, present and future.

This is contingent on something that can be measured and is beyond dispute. "Success" is a subjective piece of bullshit, and that is not what is to be measured in a study. I don't even want to hear the  motherfucking word. Any study of this that involves the concept of "success" or "failure" is immediately suspect IMO.


Nothing means anything until it can be determined if you are getting your money's worth... if the seller delivers on his promise. People take out second mortgages on their homes for this shit, for fuck's sake. They blow their kids college money. They liquidate their retirement funds.

I make no qualitative statement about this, I'm just saying it's how things are done in this country.


So lets find out.

[Whooter]

The studies are not intended to sway anyone’s opinion here on fornits...

The only opinions I give a flying fuck about are the opinions of parents (i.e. "customers"). I stand to benefit zero from a study, regardless of what it says. Im not a parent, and Ive been off the duck farm near 20 years now. I don't need a study to tell me what I went through. All of that is over.

However, WE (the collective we) need a study done, because parents keep sending kids there. These places make glowing promises. They pay PR people and stage their little "studies" which contain about as much science as a program contains certified, competent staff. There's testimony along both sides of the fence, and you know what? It's shit. It's all shit. You want to tell me it was great for your kid? You want to say you were abused? You want to recount how it saved your life? Fuck all of you. That's not worth shit. It's goddamn personal testimony, and it's crap, and no parent is going to listen to you unless it supports their preconceived notion. Fact is, when a parent is looking to send a kid away, it's rare that they change their mind. (It happens, but its rare.) Kids are property. Loved property, but still, property. Politicians are ass-suckers and I dont give a fuck what they do. (The less, the  better) All of this is in the hands of parents, present and future.

This is contingent on something that can be measured and is beyond dispute. "Success" is a subjective piece of bullshit, and that is not what is to be measured in a study. I don't even want to hear the  motherfucking word. Any study of this that involves the concept of "success" or "failure" is immediately suspect IMO.


Nothing means anything until it can be determined if you are getting your money's worth... if the seller delivers on his promise. People take out second mortgages on their homes for this shit, for fuck's sake. They blow their kids college money. They liquidate their retirement funds.

I make no qualitative statement about this, I'm just saying it's how things are done in this country.


So lets find out.

Castle, I would like to see more studies done also.  Without the studies the individual programs can only have the prospective parents talk to those parents and kids who have already been through it to try to gage if it is the right thing for their son or daughter.  This is okay but the school will only give you the names of the parents who did well so there is no way of knowing how many kids are successful and how many are not.
It is good to see these studies finally starting to get done.  I would like to see more detail but it is better than what we have had over the past decade or so.

Does anyone know if they are doing another one on their boarding schools?

[Troll Control]

I'd be curious to see exactly what they'd be studying, considering AEG's admission that they provide no treatment.  How does one assess the outcome of non-treatment?

"What do you call a therapuetic program that provides no therapy?"  "That's easy!  Aspen Education!"

No need to have any studies done until we have some actual treatment to assess.

Right now AEG programs can be correctly and accurately labeled as "child bullpens" because all they provide is three hots and a cot (plus the humiliation they throw in for free).

[Whooter]

Castle, I would like to see more studies done also.  Without the studies the individual programs can only have the prospective parents talk to those parents and kids who have already been through it to try to gage if it is the right thing for their son or daughter.  This is okay but the school will only give you the names of the parents who did well so there is no way of knowing how many kids are successful and how many are not.
It is good to see these studies finally starting to get done.  I would like to see more detail but it is better than what we have had over the past decade or so.

Does anyone know if they are doing another one on their boarding schools?

I heard that they have completed (or near completed) a study on their residential programs.  Its a big study that included more than 500 kids I am told.  I just hope they include more detail to the public when they release it instead of just the results.

[try another castle]

who's "they"? Studies from "they" are bullshit.

The only entity who really SHOULD be doing studies about these places are consumer advocacy groups.

[Whooter]

who's "they"? Studies from "they" are bullshit.

The only entity who really SHOULD be doing studies about these places are consumer advocacy groups.

I agree, but if they are not interested in doing it then they need to hire an independent place to do it for them.  Its better than not doing any study.

[Whooter]

who's "they"? Studies from "they" are bullshit.

The only entity who really SHOULD be doing studies about these places are consumer advocacy groups.

Its frustrating as hell for these programs to get an advocacy group to spend money on them.  There are tons of industries and products out there which would love to be spotlighted with a free study by an advocacy group but they just cant do everything.  

There are people who make these on-demand (tankless) water heating systems (just to take an example) and they have been trying to get “consumer reports” to test them and rate them on their web site.  But they are so backed up with products that they cant do it.  So these water heater makers are stuck doing their own testing and reporting or hiring it out.  Doesn’t make them any less credible.  It would be better to get Consumer reports blessing though, I agree.  Just like it would be better to have an advocacy group take on the teen help industry.

Maybe letters to some of these groups, from fornits, would help.

[try another castle]

Its frustrating as hell for these programs to get an advocacy group to spend money on them

Good. Those fuckers steal enough people's money.

[Whooter]

Its frustrating as hell for these programs to get an advocacy group to spend money on them

Good. Those fuckers steal enough people's money.

So thats why they hire third parties to run the studies and not wait for advocacy groups to knock on their door.  Really cant blame them.  I would want to get the word out too if I had a business plan that was successful.

[Anonymous]

Aw shucks, what's the hurry?  Programs have only been around like,uhm, forty years.  What's that?  Oh,  you didn't care about "studies" until faced with a little opposition.  Ok, now I get it.

[Troll Control]

I'd be curious to see exactly what they'd be studying, considering AEG's admission that they provide no treatment.  How does one assess the outcome of non-treatment?

"What do you call a therapuetic program that provides no therapy?"  "That's easy!  Aspen Education!"

No need to have any studies done until we have some actual treatment to assess.

Right now AEG programs can be correctly and accurately labeled as "child bullpens" because all they provide is three hots and a cot (plus the humiliation they throw in for free).

Again, how can anybody do a treatment outcome study on an AEG program when AEG has already admitted that they offer NO TREATMENT.  To engage Whooter on that topic is pure nonsense.  Until they actually provide treatment, which they clearly do not, there's NOTHING TO STUDY.

[Whooter]

I'd be curious to see exactly what they'd be studying, considering AEG's admission that they provide no treatment.  How does one assess the outcome of non-treatment?

"What do you call a therapuetic program that provides no therapy?"  "That's easy!  Aspen Education!"

No need to have any studies done until we have some actual treatment to assess.

Right now AEG programs can be correctly and accurately labeled as "child bullpens" because all they provide is three hots and a cot (plus the humiliation they throw in for free).

Again, how can anybody do a treatment outcome study on an AEG program when AEG has already admitted that they offer NO TREATMENT.  To engage Whooter on that topic is pure nonsense.  Until they actually provide treatment, which they clearly do not, there's NOTHING TO STUDY.

Well it may not be considered treatment but they do a great job addressing the kids problems and getting them back on track.  Their outcome studies are impressive.  I think they call it a model.  All the kids go through the same stages and then emerge together and are back on track.  They can see licensed therapists if their family wants them to or if it is part of their plan.  Some are part of the school and others are independent depending on the program.