Another death last week at an Aspen program

[Whooter]

It wouldn't matter where they were living anyway.

You don't think that parental presence would have an impact on the students' answers? Maybe they could be sent away again.

Moreover, it would suggest that the student respondents were still in that honeymoon phase of trying to fit in with everyone's expectations of them. Hence my question of how much time had elapsed since they were in program...

Whoops it was there..."Thirty-eight percent of these parents reported living with the graduate, 30% reported living apart from the graduate, and 33% reported living with the graduate on a part-time basis."

[Whooter]

Here are a few more findings from the study:


The length of time since graduation for this sample ranged from 6.5 to 26.5 months, the average being 13.9 months.

So it looks like a little over a year out on average.


Psychiatric medication was used by 60% of the student sample prior to ASR, and only 46% of the student sample after ASR

This was always my perception.  The programs tend to try to get these kids off all the meds if possible.  Kids now a days are way over medicated.



None of the students required psychiatric hospitalizations after ASR, though 66% resumed outpatient individual therapy, 10% continued group therapy, and 10% used family therapy.

This is about what I would have expected and experienced with the groups I followed and the one my daughter was in.



Twelve percent of ASR students had attempted suicide prior to treatment, and none reported attempting suicide after treatment.

Great result!!!!



Of the 49% of students who reported that they planned to be sober following graduation, 5% have been completely sober since they graduated, and an additional 12% used substances after treatment, but have now committed to a lifestyle of sobriety.

So basically one kid stayed sober after a year.  The rest are normal teenagers.



Despite the consensus that drug use in graduates has declined, since graduation, 64% have used marijuana, 12% mushrooms, 12% cocaine, 12% ecstasy, 6% acid, and 6% abused prescription drugs.

Still lighting up though!!!  You gotta love em!!  Personally that would be the first thing I would have done is find a source and fire up.  I expected this to be higher in the weed category.

[Troll Control]

You don't recall correctly,  In fact, you didn't publish the full link to this psychology paper because the link is titled "student papers" and it's stored on a student server and has never been published anywhere, much less a science journal.  Busted again.

Let me help you:  http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf

The first page of the abstract states:  

"Results found that the majority of pathological and adaptive behaviors were perceived to have improved by both the students and parents, but that the standardized measures of patient relations, self-reliance, conduct, and self-reported depression were still well within the clinical range."[/u]

What does this mean?  It means that anecdotal evidence from parents and students is unreliable, as the data prove that in all areas the measured items failed to improve out of the clinical range, i.e. the treatment felt good to the parents and students, but was factually totally ineffective.

Shot yourself in the foot again, Whooter.

This "evidence" you provided actually invalidates your claims that student and parent stories reflect reality and that ASR's treatment is effective.  Too bad your reading comprehension skills are so low or you could have avoided this embarrassment.

Sorry, Whooter, but here are the real facts.  If Shapiro was "pre-doctoral" in 2007, then five years earlier she would have been a freshman psychology student (2002) when this paper was written.  A freshman psychology paper is not a university study.  Everyone understands this.

Great point.  This paper was written by a 19 year old girl for a psychology class.  Trying to use this paper to to suggest that programs are safe or effective is nonsense.

[Troll Control]

It wouldn't matter where they were living anyway.

You don't think that parental presence would have an impact on the students' answers? Maybe they could be sent away again.

Moreover, it would suggest that the student respondents were still in that honeymoon phase of trying to fit in with everyone's expectations of them. Hence my question of how much time had elapsed since they were in program...

You missed my point.  None of that matters because this isn't a study, it's a paper written by a 19 year old girl for a psychology class and based on a survey conducted with ASR's approved contact list of gradutes only.  These schools on average have a 50% attrition rate and none of those treatment failures were considered.  The whole point is that there is no reason to argure minutiae when this paper doesn't mean anything anyway.  

If you're going to assign some kind of value to it then one need not read past the abstract which clearly states that parents' and students' opinions were that there was improvement, but for all traits examined, all were still in the clinical range.  It's actually evidence that ASR doesn't work for any mental hygiene problems.

[Whooter]

Here are a few more findings from the study:


The length of time since graduation for this sample ranged from 6.5 to 26.5 months, the average being 13.9 months.

So it looks like a little over a year out on average.


Psychiatric medication was used by 60% of the student sample prior to ASR, and only 46% of the student sample after ASR

This was always my perception.  The programs tend to try to get these kids off all the meds if possible.  Kids now a days are way over medicated.



None of the students required psychiatric hospitalizations after ASR, though 66% resumed outpatient individual therapy, 10% continued group therapy, and 10% used family therapy.

This is about what I would have expected and experienced with the groups I followed and the one my daughter was in.



Twelve percent of ASR students had attempted suicide prior to treatment, and none reported attempting suicide after treatment.

Great result!!!!



Of the 49% of students who reported that they planned to be sober following graduation, 5% have been completely sober since they graduated, and an additional 12% used substances after treatment, but have now committed to a lifestyle of sobriety.

So basically one kid stayed sober after a year.  The rest are normal teenagers.



Despite the consensus that drug use in graduates has declined, since graduation, 64% have used marijuana, 12% mushrooms, 12% cocaine, 12% ecstasy, 6% acid, and 6% abused prescription drugs.

Still lighting up though!!!  You gotta love em!!  Personally that would be the first thing I would have done is find a source and fire up.  I expected this to be higher in the weed category.

Whooter, Tell us more about the kids smoking pot.  you dont think this is a problem?  64% reported smoking after the program... major fail.  You lose.

[Whooter]

This little piece was interesting:

The results of this study are not as I predicted. I predicted the large parent and student perception of change in psychopathology, which was found, but I did not predict a return to the normal range of these measures on the BASC psychopathological scales, which occurred on all scales except that of parent reported conduct and student reported depression.

So basically all or mostly all the kids returned to the normal range in most areas.  I didnt catch this the first time reading the study.

[Troll Control]

Here are a few more findings from the study:


The length of time since graduation for this sample ranged from 6.5 to 26.5 months, the average being 13.9 months.

So it looks like a little over a year out on average.


Psychiatric medication was used by 60% of the student sample prior to ASR, and only 46% of the student sample after ASR

This was always my perception.  The programs tend to try to get these kids off all the meds if possible.  Kids now a days are way over medicated.



None of the students required psychiatric hospitalizations after ASR, though 66% resumed outpatient individual therapy, 10% continued group therapy, and 10% used family therapy.

This is about what I would have expected and experienced with the groups I followed and the one my daughter was in.



Twelve percent of ASR students had attempted suicide prior to treatment, and none reported attempting suicide after treatment.

Great result!!!!



Of the 49% of students who reported that they planned to be sober following graduation, 5% have been completely sober since they graduated, and an additional 12% used substances after treatment, but have now committed to a lifestyle of sobriety.

So basically one kid stayed sober after a year.  The rest are normal teenagers.



Despite the consensus that drug use in graduates has declined, since graduation, 64% have used marijuana, 12% mushrooms, 12% cocaine, 12% ecstasy, 6% acid, and 6% abused prescription drugs.

Still lighting up though!!!  You gotta love em!!  Personally that would be the first thing I would have done is find a source and fire up.  I expected this to be higher in the weed category.

Whooter, Tell us more about the kids smoking pot.  you dont think this is a problem?  64% reported smoking after the program... major fail.  You lose.

Does anyone else see the problem with Whooter admitting to being a drug user, glorifying drug use, calling drug-using kids "normal teenagers" and also locking up his own kids at programs for exactly what he's accepting and glorifying right now?  No wonder his kids are so screwed up.  He gets high, brags about how great it is and when his kids follow in his footsteps he flip out on them and puts them into behvior mod centers.  What a jerk and a hypocrite.

[Whooter]

Does anyone else see the problem with Whooter admitting to being a drug user, glorifying drug use, calling drug-using kids "normal teenagers" and also locking up his own kids at programs for exactly what he's accepting and glorifying right now?  No wonder his kids are so screwed up.  He gets high, brags about how great it is and when his kids follow in his footsteps he flip out on them and puts them into behvior mod centers.  What a jerk and a hypocrite.

Why is smoking pot such a crime for you?  Why do you have to label people as "drug user" because they smoke?  You are a little out of touch if you think that kids today dont smoke.  It is very normal.  You should get out more.

[Troll Control]

Does anyone else see the problem with Whooter admitting to being a drug user, glorifying drug use, calling drug-using kids "normal teenagers" and also locking up his own kids at programs for exactly what he's accepting and glorifying right now?  No wonder his kids are so screwed up.  He gets high, brags about how great it is and when his kids follow in his footsteps he flip out on them and puts them into behvior mod centers.  What a jerk and a hypocrite.

Why is smoking pot such a crime for you?  Why do you have to label people as "drug user" because they smoke?  You are a little out of touch if you think that kids today dont smoke.  It is very normal.  You should get out more.

Oh, I know all about it.  The difference is I wouldn't send my kids to programs for it, but you did.  You punished them for modeling your own behaviors and attitude.  That's your problem.  You're a hypocrite.

[Whooter]

Does anyone else see the problem with Whooter admitting to being a drug user, glorifying drug use, calling drug-using kids "normal teenagers" and also locking up his own kids at programs for exactly what he's accepting and glorifying right now?  No wonder his kids are so screwed up.  He gets high, brags about how great it is and when his kids follow in his footsteps he flip out on them and puts them into behvior mod centers.  What a jerk and a hypocrite.

Why is smoking pot such a crime for you?  Why do you have to label people as "drug user" because they smoke?  You are a little out of touch if you think that kids today dont smoke.  It is very normal.  You should get out more.

Oh, I know all about it.  The difference is I wouldn't send my kids to programs for it, but you did.  You punished them for modeling your own behaviors and attitude.  That's your problem.  You're a hypocrite.

No I didnt and I dont think many other program parents do either.  I am sure there are some that do but that isnt the norm.  Smoking pot and drinking are normal process for kids growing up, they need to experience and experiment with their enviornment and those things that are available to them.

[Troll Control]

And you sent them to programs.  You forgot that part.  

One of the primary reasons parents send their teens to programs is because they are sexually active as well.  How un-teenage-like!  Thousands of kids have been sent to programs precisely for smoking pot.  Some because the parents just thought they might be smoking pot.  What you are saying is completely untrue.

We should get back on topic though.  This thread is about a kid who was killed at SageWalk, an Aspen program, that has been ruled a homicide by the Sheriff's Department.  What about this kid who got a death sentence for using drugs?  Aspen killed this kid who was placed there for drug use.  This is a very serious matter.

[Whooter]

And you sent them to programs.  You forgot that part.  

One of the primary reasons parents send their teens to programs is because they are sexually active as well.  How un-teenage-like!  Thousands of kids have been sent to programs precisely for smoking pot.  Some because the parents just thought they might be smoking pot.  What you are saying is completely untrue.

We should get back on topic though.  This thread is about a kid who was killed at SageWalk, an Aspen program, that has been ruled a homicide by the Sheriff's Department.  What about this kid who got a death sentence for using drugs?  Aspen killed this kid who was placed there for drug use.  This is a very serious matter.

Yeah, there are all kinds out there.  But I believe the majority of the parents, like myself, are okay with their kids experimenting with what’s available in their environment.  I am glad you can see this too.

Back to Sagewalk.  I didnt see the Sheriffs release that this was ruled a homicide.  Thats interesting.   Do you have a link to the report?

[Ursus]

Back to Sagewalk. I didnt see the Sheriffs release that this was ruled a homicide. Thats interesting. Do you have a link to the report?

As far as I know, the final report isn't out yet. To be fair, I would say that this case is technically "believed to be a homicide." Nevertheless, people generally do not write this in an affidavit, let alone release said opinion to the press, unless they are fairly certain.

From the Bend Bulletin article by Erin Golden, "Investigator calls wilderness school reckless in teen's death" (Oct. 20, 2009) (also posted earlier in this very thread):

In an affidavit requesting a search warrant to seek documents and other evidence from SageWalk Wilderness School's Southwest Obsidian Avenue office last month, Lake County Sheriff's Deputy Chuck Poré wrote that he believes Sergey Blashchishen's death was a homicide and the result of criminal mistreatment and reckless endangerment by the school.[/list]

[Troll Control]

It's important that this case is being investigated as a homicide.  These people murdered this boy, as programs have done to many other children.  Force-marching him until he drops and denying him proper medical care is the same as putting a gun to his head and squeezing one off.  Aspen Education Group KILLED THIS BOY, like they have killed many others.  When will authorities put a stop to this abuse, neglect and killing in the name of 'helping'???

[Whooter]

And you sent them to programs.  You forgot that part.  

One of the primary reasons parents send their teens to programs is because they are sexually active as well.  How un-teenage-like!  Thousands of kids have been sent to programs precisely for smoking pot.  Some because the parents just thought they might be smoking pot.  What you are saying is completely untrue.

We should get back on topic though.  This thread is about a kid who was killed at SageWalk, an Aspen program, that has been ruled a homicide by the Sheriff's Department.  What about this kid who got a death sentence for using drugs?  Aspen killed this kid who was placed there for drug use.  This is a very serious matter.

Its not "them" its "She".  My daughter attended a program for 16 months.  The kids that I knew were not there for smoking pot or being sexually active, although I do believe this to be a problem.  I would like to see a requirement that all kids have a third party sign off on their placement ie, school counselor, therapist, hospital screening etc.  This would cut way down on the number of kids who are placed for no reason like smoking pot or being sexually active.
As far as the Sagewalk event, it seems the authorities are on top of it.

Like I have been saying all along.  If these programs were abusing kids then they would be shut down and people would go to jail.  If kids were abused at Sagewalk then these kids would go to the police, like they did, and have the problem addressed.  I read stories on fornits all the time but no one goes to the police so it is hard to believe (sometimes) that they are telling the truth.  Going to the police helps to validates the story in my opinion.  If someone abused me or my family I would be calling 911 in a heart beat not sitting on my computer telling strangers in an open forum.  So you see there is a difference.  If these people at Sagewalk abused kids then they should go to jail and their licensed to operate should be pulled.