Eye Contact

[starry-eyed pirate]

remember the big deal about eye contact when we were in there ??

If you were stood up in group and didn't look at the group, or the staff member, as you spoke,  you'd be confronted about it.  And it became such a big deal, at least to me, that when I got out of $tr8 I was always uncomfortable talking to people because I had lost my natural way and I knew it.  This was one of the key social coping mechanism $tr8 took from me.  I didn't know how to look at people who I was talking to. I always felt like I was lying whether or not I actually was. If I was in a conversation with someone I wouldn't know how to look at them.  I knew that the constant eye to eye gaze was unnerving to me, but whenever I looked away to avoid it I felt unnerved then too.  So I was unable to relate, so to speak.  That's a direct result of 23 months under the influence of $tr8 Inc.  

I have every right to sue those who kept me in there, not out of some need for justice, but for some compensation for the injuries they gave me.  Socially crippling me for life and significantly lowering my quality of life.  Sorry if I sound a little bitter.  I guess I'm getting older and I been watchin the dust settle long enough now to begin to see what's my own doin and what someone else has done to me, and shit that aint permanent damage don't bother me.  I'm tough enough, but the permanent social injuries that were inflicted upon me in $tr8 by a gang of hooligan adults, who should never have had anywhere near that much power over anybody, ceptin maybe if I was in there for attempted murder, but I wasn't.  I was in there for seein through their lies and wantin to know the truth.  When you're 15 those values can manifest themselves in delinquency from school and experimentation with marijuana etc.

I was seriously unable to socialize in the mainstream for about a decade after $tr8.  I drove illegally because I couldn't bear to have my vehicle inspected and stuff like that.  Didn't want to be caught in any social situation where I might be forced into conversation.  The grocery store was always dicey for me.  At one point I spent about 6 months trying to figure out how I could just end my life.

A lot is goin through my mind right now, as I write this.  The introspection is key but can also become a bog.

[Anonymous]

yeah the eye contact thing followed me afterwards also. I'm not from straight, cedu, but one of our many freakish rituals was called 'eye mingling'. U walk from person to person looking straight into their eyes silently, nose to nose. If you accept that person and want them to accept you you continue to stare. If you don't and want to move on to a new person you break eye contact and find a new person to stare at. You were supposed to show the other person who you really were... just with your eyes. This could last 30-40 min. I found it particularly disturbing. not to mention the 4 hr rap sessions sittin in a circle without any way of avoiding constant eye contact. It's more like they trained us to distrust that our unconscious forms of communication are really being transmitted correctly. How long do you hold eye contact? Is diverting your gaze taken offensively? Once you start to question whether your unconscious processes are in fact performing the functions you think they are, you will not be able to naturally communicate. Imagine being compusively conscious of every time you blink, or breathe, or your heart beats.

Also, I found a similar use of this eye thing in scientology. Apparently they make you stand face to face w someone, stare into their eyes for an extended period and not flinch at all or else you start over by staring into a candle for a minute before returning to your stone stare at you partner. I'm sure they do it for its crazy making effects, and I'm sure it was purposely used on you in str8 even if it was done more covertly.

[starry-eyed pirate]

yeah the eye contact thing followed me afterwards also. I'm not from straight, cedu, but one of our many freakish rituals was called 'eye mingling'. U walk from person to person looking straight into their eyes silently, nose to nose. If you accept that person and want them to accept you you continue to stare. If you don't and want to move on to a new person you break eye contact and find a new person to stare at. You were supposed to show the other person who you really were... just with your eyes. This could last 30-40 min. I found it particularly disturbing. not to mention the 4 hr rap sessions sittin in a circle without any way of avoiding constant eye contact.

Weird.

It's more like they trained us to distrust that our unconscious forms of communication are really being transmitted correctly.

I think it's like they trained us, if even unintentionally to be aware of our normally unconscious forms of communication.  Having been stripped of all social coping mechanisms this level of self-awareness was just sort of a survival adaptation that worked well in the cultic environment.  Because if you weren't aware of yourself then you could betray your secret thoughts to the group.  It was a tool that could be used to defend the inner sanctums of the individual consciousness against the invasiveness of the group.

It became a mal-adaption once I was on the outside.

Once you start to question whether your unconscious processes are in fact performing the functions you think they are, you will not be able to naturally communicate. Imagine being compusively conscious of every time you blink, or breathe, or your heart beats.

That is what I'm sayin.  Have you ever experienced uncontrollable shakes and tics ?  They are just symptoms of the stress that comes from bein laid bare of all of your natural coping mechanisms and social filters.  In the years after $tr8 I suffered a long-term nervous breakdown which kept me from socializin much.  Then for years in strange social situations, even after I had been recovering for some time, often around people I had offered too much honesty, I developed shakes and tics.  I remember one night at a friends house while I sat there.  He was havin a college party and while I sat on the couch my knee began to twitch.  My nerve was shot.  I tried to deny to myself that I was shakin but my friend told me I was.  My nerves were so gone that I would just shake in social situations and I had a terrible time tryin to get along.  $tr8 was completely invalidating.  When I came outta there I had almost no idea who I was, let alone any internal reference points to help me translate the outside culture.  I went through a complete LSD/strychnine breakdown, the main part of which took place over a 6-8 month period starting about a year after $tr8, when I moved out of my folks house and got an apt with my $tr8 girlfriend.

I'm not too familiar with Scientology, but I wouldn't be surprised either.  Thanks for your response.

[Anonymous]

remember the big deal about eye contact when we were in there ??

If you were stood up in group and didn't look at the group, or the staff member, as you spoke,  you'd be confronted about it.  And it became such a big deal, at least to me, that when I got out of $tr8 I was always uncomfortable talking to people because I had lost my natural way and I knew it.  This was one of the key social coping mechanism $tr8 took from me.  I didn't know how to look at people who I was talking to. I always felt like I was lying whether or not I actually was. If I was in a conversation with someone I wouldn't know how to look at them.  I knew that the constant eye to eye gaze was unnerving to me, but whenever I looked away to avoid it I felt unnerved then too.  So I was unable to relate, so to speak.  That's a direct result of 23 months under the influence of $tr8 Inc.  

I have every right to sue those who kept me in there, not out of some need for justice, but for some compensation for the injuries they gave me.  Socially crippling me for life and significantly lowering my quality of life.  Sorry if I sound a little bitter.  I guess I'm getting older and I been watchin the dust settle long enough now to begin to see what's my own doin and what someone else has done to me, and shit that aint permanent damage don't bother me.  I'm tough enough, but the permanent social injuries that were inflicted upon me in $tr8 by a gang of hooligan adults, who should never have had anywhere near that much power over anybody, ceptin maybe if I was in there for attempted murder, but I wasn't.  I was in there for seein through their lies and wantin to know the truth.  When you're 15 those values can manifest themselves in delinquency from school and experimentation with marijuana etc.

I was seriously unable to socialize in the mainstream for about a decade after $tr8.  I drove illegally because I couldn't bear to have my vehicle inspected and stuff like that.  Didn't want to be caught in any social situation where I might be forced into conversation.  The grocery store was always dicey for me.  At one point I spent about 6 months trying to figure out how I could just end my life.

A lot is goin through my mind right now, as I write this.  The introspection is key but can also become a bog.

              Wow really sorry you went through this, I know what it is to feel like this too, how old were you when you were put in, and also how were you put in,  (were you court ordered or parents just decided to put you in ?)I am just trying to understand different ages and such that were affected, it took way many years before I would even be around family, so just curious?? I was told they would kill off my family if I ever spoke a word of that place so I kinda just went on with daily living. It is very strange how all are affected even years later. In fact I believe myself will be affected forever. Sorry you go through this.  :peace:

[Anonymous]

It fits one of the fragments of this memory, in which many mornings the tension was so intense I would throw up everything before I got to my first classroom. I loathed appearing before classrooms of students and talking. It was a complete violation of my whole lone, isolated way of life, and what I experienced was intense stage fright, except that it never showed on me as stage fright, but rather as a terrific intensity about everything I did. Students had told people I knew that it was like a sort of electricity in the air. The moment I entered the classroom all eyes turned on me and followed me as I walked to the front of the room. All conversation died to a hush and remained at a hush even though it was several minutes, often, before the class started. Throughout the hour the eyes never strayed from me. I became much talked about, a controversial figure. The majority of students avoided my sections like the Black Death. They had heard too many stories.

[Anonymous]

I think it's like they trained us, if even unintentionally to be aware of our normally unconscious forms of communication. Having been stripped of all social coping mechanisms this level of self-awareness was just sort of a survival adaptation that worked well in the cultic environment. Because if you weren't aware of yourself then you could betray your secret thoughts to the group. It was a tool that could be used to defend the inner sanctums of the individual consciousness against the invasiveness of the group.

It became a mal-adaption once I was on the outside.


    Guest wrote: Once you start to question whether your unconscious processes are in fact performing the functions you think they are, you will not be able to naturally communicate. Imagine being compusively conscious of every time you blink, or breathe, or your heart beats.



That is what I'm sayin. Have you ever experienced uncontrollable shakes and tics ? They are just symptoms of the stress that comes from bein laid bare of all of your natural coping mechanisms and social filters. In the years after $tr8 I suffered a long-term nervous breakdown which kept me from socializin much. Then for years in strange social situations, even after I had been recovering for some time, often around people I had offered too much honesty, I developed shakes and tics. I remember one night at a friends house while I sat there. He was havin a college party and while I sat on the couch my knee began to twitch. My nerve was shot. I tried to deny to myself that I was shakin but my friend told me I was. My nerves were so gone that I would just shake in social situations and I had a terrible time tryin to get along. $tr8 was completely invalidating. When I came outta there I had almost no idea who I was, let alone any internal reference points to help me translate the outside culture. I went through a complete LSD/strychnine breakdown, the main part of which took place over a 6-8 month period starting about a year after $tr8, when I moved out of my folks house and got an apt with my $tr8 girlfriend.

I'm a weirdo about eye contact as well.  Keeping direct eye contact with people unnerves me, but at the same time, I feel that I have to, and am not sure how to hold a conversation without constant eye contact.  I feel like it lays me bare, if that makes sense at all.  Working in customer service, this can be difficult, since I spend my day having the same short conversations with different people all day.  It has been helping me to realize that this is a result of the program, and while I'm not sure how to make it go away, just reminding myself that it is basically a knee jerk reaction has helped me deal with it better.  Like, ok, this is the program fucking with me again, but its ok, these people don't know that, and I just need to push through it, kind of thing.  My significant other will point out some of the weird shit that I do as a result of my programing, and that has helped too, just to make me aware of it.  

Oh, to make aware.  I think there is a thread about people saying program charged language like 'the group' or 'sharing.'  My manager came over the other day, and told me that I need to 'be more aware'   I almost lost it.  Then I had to remind myself that once again, it was the program fucking with my head.  Different catch phrases or key words or whatever still throw me off.  I agree with they hyper aware comment, how it makes it hard to function.  I feel like I'm hyper aware, or sensitive, to what others are doing as well as myself.  I'm sure that its all in my head, but I feel very in-tune I guess, with what others are feeling, and have physicalish reactions, like drawing away, or having the nervous anxiety rise up in my chest when others feeling's change.  Especially if it is directed towards me.  Almost like an subconscious dance, although that's not the right word.    

The nervous tick thing is interesting too, and I do that also.  I'll start to shake and have no idea why, or no real way to stop it.  It makes my back get all tight, and as much as I try to relax, I cannot.  I have not figured out anyway to help that stuff out.  It's super annoying and embarrassing though.  I try to play it off as being cold or whatever.  

Thanks for the posts, this is the kind of stuff that I like to find on fornits.  I really need help with this stuff.  I'm so tired of the program affecting every aspect of my life, and I am searching for solutions to these problems.  No one else really understands why 'be aware' sets me off, or why eye contact freaks me out, but then I come here and see that others are going through the same thing.  A good and really shitty feeling all at the same time.  I'm still not anywhere near being over the anger about the fact that this was done to all of us.

[Antigen]

I ran into a dude the other night who had been among the angry clique (sorry) that had me temporarily banned for life from one of my favorite bars. One of the bar maids and maybe a friend or two spoke for me and un-banned me a couple weeks later. But I stayed away anyway cause.... well I had to figure out how I kept getting myself into trouble down there with people who I didn't even dislike.

There were a few many convos similar to this one I'm about to tell you about. But it all boils down to extreme over-reaction to things that shouldn't really upset me quite so much.

So this guy, decent sort, hard working local guy and pretty well liked by most folks who have known him all his life. He's at the bar with his girl and telling a story, right proudly, about how he up and walked out of another bar because they were serving a girl he knew was a minor and about how his employer's "ethics" policy required him to do that. Said he knew the girl was under age cause she was a good friend's daughter :timeout:

This set off some fearful sounding bells and whistles in my mind while out of my mouth came some words that, while probably not wrong or intended to insult or offend, came off as rageful disdain. I asked him how it was ethical to walk away and leave a young girl, especially a friend's kid, in one of the rougher bars in the area (rougher than any in this town, as I understand it). He said something about how it would be a violation of his company's ethics policy to be present in the event that bar were raided.  :jawdrop:

I tried to explain my thoughts; that the ethical thing to do might have been to stay and make sure the girl made it home safely or maybe call her dad to come get her or at least tip off the bar maid so that maybe she'd put the girl out. I tried to explain how blind obedience to senseless policy and fear of repercussion to the point of turning a blind eye to a friend's kid in danger (or even a stranger's kid) are just about the equal opposite of ethical. I even went so far as to try to explain how redefining the language in such manner is just incredibly dangerous and seeing it happening all around me is sometimes terrifying.

He didn't take it that way. Glad I ran into him again after all this time. I haven't overtly apologized to him yet but at least we had a much more pleasant conversation this time. Might have cleared the air a little bit.

Now, I don't think I'm wrong in feeling anger and fear, even intensely, over things like this. I just wish sometimes that I could reel myself in better and find more effective ways of communicating these kinds of ideas.

P.S.

Prescience
    * Main Entry: pre·science
    * Pronunciation: ?pre-sh(?-)?n(t)s, ?pr?-, -s(?-)?n(t)s
    * Function: noun
    * Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin praescientia, from Latin praescient-, praesciens, present participle of praescire to know beforehand, from prae- + scire to know — more at science
    * Date: 14th century

: foreknowledge of events: a : divine omniscience b : human anticipation of the course of events : foresight

— pre·scient -sh(?-)?nt, -s(?-)?nt adjective

— pre·scient·ly adverb  

Definition B is the older one. It's a good thing! It means being able to extrapolate and make an educated guess about what's about to happen based on past experience and knowledge of events. That new one, definition A, is hog-wash! Nothing divine or mystical about logical thinking. But I guess logical thinking has become so rare that when people do it others around them are confused and think it's some kind of magic or something.

That one scares me a little. This one just makes me wonder a little http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affected is not the same thing at all as http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effected . But it seems that, in recent years, the two have become interchangeable in common communications, including respected print publications.