Author Topic: No to programs, but then what do you do?  (Read 1687 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2009, 08:42:43 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "hurrikayne"
LOL. Makes no sence. If you want to take her out of the situation, wouldn't home schooling be the alternative? How does "taking her out of the situation" equate to putting her in a private prison?

How is bullying brought about by her "resisting talk therapy"? If I attend "talk therapy" will that guarantee I won't be mugged. Nice pretzal logic who-troll.

Who's the troll, asshole?  
First of all, learn to spell; it will make you seem less ignorant. Second, I wasn't equating one thing to the other - therapy and bullying. But talk therapy might give her insight about why it keeps happening and what she can do about it. Third, who the fuck asked you?
As the creator of this thread points out, there is a lot of vitriol against "programs" but very little good advice about alternatives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 08:47:45 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "hurrikayne"
LOL. Makes no sence. If you want to take her out of the situation, wouldn't home schooling be the alternative? How does "taking her out of the situation" equate to putting her in a private prison?

How is bullying brought about by her "resisting talk therapy"? If I attend "talk therapy" will that guarantee I won't be mugged. Nice pretzal logic who-troll.

Who's the troll, asshole?  
First of all, learn to spell; it will make you seem less ignorant. Second, I wasn't equating one thing to the other - therapy and bullying. But talk therapy might give her insight about why it keeps happening and what she can do about it. Third, who the fuck asked you?
As the creator of this thread points out, there is a lot of vitriol against "programs" but very little good advice about alternatives.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 08:52:17 PM »
In the sliding scale of "does not not need institutionalization" to "needs institutionalization" there is no room for programs.

First steps towards sanity would be family functional therapy (FFT) or community-based real therapies. Battered women's shelters have been already mentioned. Getting her to talk to an older girl who went through the exact things she did should not be hard!

When children are in need of real inpatient treatment that's why the state has juvenile justice/mental health programs (yes, they can be abusive too, we know- but it's almost never NEARLY as bad).

Hell, bring the GUY onto this board, he might fit in with the hatred lords around here who can tell him to stop in a way he'll understand.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 09:05:09 PM »
just a quick thought maybe the problem lies within our own society
when we have girls like Brittany Spears trying to be a role model for young girls ,
maybe teaching your daughters self worth and education is what ensures she will not have to
marry just ANYONE to support her ,look at madonna shes a has-been
and still going nowhere .  
When Television and society raise our kids at early ages  what do we expect ?
last but not least teaching boys how to treat girls is another issue so when they grow up
they aren't like the b/f you just mention ,
Parents need to be parenting when the kids are young if they expect to see the harvest
of a nice crop.


Facing problems and dealing with them head-on is alot less difficult then
waiting until the problems get to big to handle .

Learn to have authority over your children w/ they are young and be a good loving
parent ----or stay out of the business of having kids , break the cycle !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2009, 09:09:20 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
In the sliding scale of "does not not need institutionalization" to "needs institutionalization" there is no room for programs.

First steps towards sanity would be family functional therapy (FFT) or community-based real therapies. Battered women's shelters have been already mentioned. Getting her to talk to an older girl who went through the exact things she did should not be hard!

When children are in need of real inpatient treatment that's why the state has juvenile justice/mental health programs (yes, they can be abusive too, we know- but it's almost never NEARLY as bad).

Hell, bring the GUY onto this board, he might fit in with the hatred lords around here who can tell him to stop in a way he'll understand.

Better yet, send somebody do go kick the shit out of him . (at least that's what my people would do!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline hurrikayne

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2009, 09:32:22 PM »
I absolutely agree with the suggestion that the 14 year old who has been bullied should talk to an older girl whose been in her shoes.  If there are any self defense type classes you could send her too, most not only teach self-defense, but self-control and self-confidence as well.

I mentioned my own child earlier on, I actually asked her what advice she might give another girl facing these kinds of problems.  Her suggestions all revolved around the girl taking action for herself.  Until she is equipped to do that, she will continue to allow herself to be bullied, no matter where you send her.  This is often the case with battered women as well.  

I completely agree with the poster who said that parents should teach their children from a young age to be face problems head on and the poster who said we should teach our boys to be decent men and our girls how to avoid getting involved with boys/men who are not.  What we do when they make a choice to ignore this advice is crucial.  Offering help, offering support, and hope for a better future are sometimes all that we can do.  Sometimes we have to step back and let our children stand up for themselves, as hard as it can be (from a parents perspective) to do.  They do need guidance in how to do this though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Motivation is everything. You can do the work of two people, but you can\'t be two people. Instead, you have to inspire the next guy down the line and get him to inspire his people. " - Lee Iacocca

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2009, 11:50:24 PM »
For the fourteen year old girl being bullied. If SHE wants to get out of the situation and the problem really is the community as well as her school, how about regular college prep boarding school? Ones with free communication, the students can go home whenever they want and no weird procedures. There's a lot of them around and you can probably find one catered to what she needs (is she interested in art, does she want a small school, lowest staff-student ratio, urban or rural setting). If she's looking for a fresh start she can get it and most regular college prep boarding school DO have counselling services or atleast they can refer her to community based support. Also she should be able to visit any school before hand and get a feel for whether she'll like it. This is only providing she wants to go.... because fortunately these schools only take actually willing students.
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Offline FemanonFatal2.0

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2009, 12:04:05 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "hurrikayne"
LOL. Makes no sence. If you want to take her out of the situation, wouldn't home schooling be the alternative? How does "taking her out of the situation" equate to putting her in a private prison?

How is bullying brought about by her "resisting talk therapy"? If I attend "talk therapy" will that guarantee I won't be mugged. Nice pretzal logic who-troll.

Who's the troll, asshole?  
First of all, learn to spell; it will make you seem less ignorant. Second, I wasn't equating one thing to the other - therapy and bullying. But talk therapy might give her insight about why it keeps happening and what she can do about it. Third, who the fuck asked you?
As the creator of this thread points out, there is a lot of vitriol against "programs" but very little good advice about alternatives.

Actually "who-troll" is a term some of us use around here (albeit way too often) to refer to a parent who is trolling this site in support of the program or in support of subjecting their child to one.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, there's really no sense in asking us if ANY kind of residential treatment would be appropriate... most of us are in strong opposition of all kinds of residential treatment including those that market themselves as therapeutic boarding school. If you knew as much about this subject as we do you might not be so quick to be defensive against my friend hurrikayne here, there are significant reasons why it would sound like a ridiculous idea to find any kind of residential placement because you feel your daughter has self esteem issues. If you knew the kind of system and unethical methods that plague this ENTIRE industry you wouldn't even consider that as an option.

In your defense you probably believe there is a difference between the big scary programs we went to, and the new and improved "therapeutic boarding schools" you've probably heard about... I'm sure your still under the impression that there are good programs out there that would be capable of helping your daughter in a way you can't. As much as I would like to tell you there is hope you might be right, the chances of finding a legitimate "theraputic boarding school" are slim because they ALL market themselves that way, especially the dangerous programs.

I wouldn't risk your daughter's life and sanity on your ability to call bullshit on these corporate con men... too many have been fooled before and no offense but I don't exactly see you as the exception.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
[size=150]When Injustice Becomes Law
...Rebellion Becomes Duty...[/size]




[size=150]WHEN THE RAPTURE COMES
CAN I HAVE YOUR FLAT SCREEN?[/size]

Offline hurrikayne

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2009, 12:09:53 AM »
For the record, I did not write the below:

Quote
hurrikayne wrote:
LOL. Makes no sence. If you want to take her out of the situation, wouldn't home schooling be the alternative? How does "taking her out of the situation" equate to putting her in a private prison?

How is bullying brought about by her "resisting talk therapy"? If I attend "talk therapy" will that guarantee I won't be mugged. Nice pretzal logic who-troll.
Was someone else - NOT me.  (Those who know me are aware of this already I'm certain...just stating it for those who do not.)

...and thank you Fem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Motivation is everything. You can do the work of two people, but you can\'t be two people. Instead, you have to inspire the next guy down the line and get him to inspire his people. " - Lee Iacocca

Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2009, 04:34:41 PM »
Quote from: "Karass"
Forniscators, it's been a long time since I cruised these boards. I have a friend in a difficult spot and want to hear what options you think make sense for his family and his daughter. When he mentioned he was considering a program, I steered him over here and clued him in to Maia and her writings. Ok, so now the EdCons won't con him and everyone here can cheer that another kid was spared from the program experience.

But just saying no to programs doesn't make the underlying problems go away. His daughter is madly in love with an abuser who has already physically assaulted her and threatened to kill her and then himself. I don't pretend to understand why a woman would willfully keep going back into a harmful relationship with such a loser...but she does. Add to that the expected fireworks due to concerned parents trying to steer her clear of harm's way, and you have a very twisted Romeo & Juliet situation affecting a family (younger kids at home too) that is barely managing to get through each angry & crazy day.

Ideas?

Local outpatient therapy? Not likely, with an unwilling 'patient' who doesn't think there's a problem that needs to be worked on.
Emancipation? She can't support herself, and mom & dad aren't likely to be too thrilled at the idea that psycho-killer bf will have even more access to her if she's out on her own. Unlikely they would want to pay her bills to enable that situation.
Restraining order against the bf?
Battered women's counselors?
Just let her keep going on with this guy and hope she sees the light before he seriously injures or kills her?

It's not enough to say programs are bad, and programs only make things worse. That's true, but some people do still need help. What do we say to them?

I don't think anybody here has been helpful. Classic case of a mission "against" something without anything to replace it with.

You didn't say how old the young woman is. I would say if she is under 18, then the cops should be called any and every time the guy lays a hand on her. After all, she is a minor and violence against her is child abuse!

I suppose the parents can require her to attend a support group, and tie her allowance and car privileges, etc. to it. Without sequestering her, however, ultimately she will do whatever she wants.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2009, 05:04:57 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"

You didn't say how old the young woman is. I would say if she is under 18, then the cops should be called any and every time the guy lays a hand on her. After all, she is a minor and violence against her is child abuse!
Aww I underestimated the ratio of what's not cancerous in your spirit. You who actually thought up something thoughtful to contribute.
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Offline Oscar

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2009, 06:29:07 PM »
The turning point in the Nordic countries when it came to actually taking anti-bullying policies serious came when a Swedish family sued the pants out of a school. Since then our politicians have been on the back of the school directors to make sure that the policies are followed to the letter.

Victims of bullies should never end up in a program.

The bully neither.

The difference between having a student with a problem and bullying is when the third person enters the conflict. Our present strategy is to prevent the "angry" kid from having followers and it works better than putting consequences on the bully himself. It is often seen that they see even negative attention and consequences as rewards, so they must never be rewarded. In fact our strategy has stolen something from the programs we use in the public school system now. If the bully is prevented to have followers it functions like a "social ban" and any kid will socialize, so he will be motivated to change his ways.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2009, 12:30:40 AM »
Quote from: "Oscar"
The turning point in the Nordic countries when it came to actually taking anti-bullying policies serious came when a Swedish family sued the pants out of a school. Since then our politicians have been on the back of the school directors to make sure that the policies are followed to the letter.

Victims of bullies should never end up in a program.

The bully neither.

The difference between having a student with a problem and bullying is when the third person enters the conflict. Our present strategy is to prevent the "angry" kid from having followers and it works better than putting consequences on the bully himself. It is often seen that they see even negative attention and consequences as rewards, so they must never be rewarded. In fact our strategy has stolen something from the programs we use in the public school system now. If the bully is prevented to have followers it functions like a "social ban" and any kid will socialize, so he will be motivated to change his ways.

You make me laugh!!! In other words let the bully beat the shit out of the kid and hope that social pressure will "cure" him - and to hell with the victim. As for as the girl with the abusive boyfriend, we'll try to socially isolate him and hope that she doesn't get killed. Very wise, indeed!
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Offline Oscar

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2009, 01:44:09 AM »
In the school setting it works well. Of course the bully is not free on consequences. He is often sent down to a therapist who will try to analyze him. We use only 1/100 of the medicine on kids you do in your country, because 50% of the diagnoses made on children are bullshit, because the criterias are written for adults, so the bully will see it as a waste of time.

In a relationship other parameters needs to be used. Some years ago the police changed their policies. They can and do press charges without the aid of the wife. They take her down to the hospital and secure the evidences with photos regardless of her statement etc. Suddenly the husband can no longer blame his wife for his stay in prison, so there is no need for additional pressure or violence to get the charges dropped. He can send a thanks to a career-minded policeman or prosecutor.

If Children are involved and there is a suspicion that they could have witness the violence, the social services could decide that the family needs a "relief family". In Denmark there is an option between letting the children remain in the family and place them in the fostercare system. A "Relief family" is a family where the children goes for a overnight stay or a weekend stay every 2'nd or 3'rd week, while their bioparents keep custody. Then the bioparents have time for therapy or other tasks decided by system. Once the problem in the family is solved the "relief family" steps out. Often it is done for a full year. It means fewer kids in our foster care system. Foster kids are expensive and a full-time placement outside the home is always the second best solution never an ideal solution.

In this case there are no children involved and I guess that the police due to their policies is depended of the womans testimony, so the best approach will be for  her to be contacted by a young woman she can relate to, who have been through the same. She is the only one who can break out of the relationship. No one else.
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Offline Paul St. John

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Re: No to programs, but then what do you do?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2009, 02:53:21 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"


As the creator of this thread points out, there is a lot of vitriol against "programs" but very little good advice about alternatives.


You do make a good point, but look at this point of veiw.  Generally speaking, the alternative to sending a child to a TC or even a boarding school, could go something like this..

You do your best with your child.  Your child may hang out with people you do not like.  They may stay out late.  Some may experiment with drugs, and every so often, occasionally, drugs may ruin some child somewhere's life and there will be an unhappy ending.

Noone said that it would be easy to have children.  What in life is?  the alternative is to deal with the situation to the best of your ability whatever that situation may be, and when push comes to shove, no matter how good you do, your child, at somepoint in their life may possibly go through experiences that you wish they never would.  But, those hard times are often a part of becoming an adult in my opinion.

In your case, I would not send child to a boarding school.  I wouldn t even consider it, ans considerring it is the first step towards doing it.  It's too bad that talk therapy isn't working, but it very often does not.  Have you ever turned the looking glass on yourself or your household.  The best way for a parent to teach is through example I think.

I don't know too much about boarding schools, but I have never really heard a good story about one- only bad stories about stupid hierarchies and will breaking in the name of a cause.  Also, if it were me in your position, as much as it would pain me to see my child harmed, I do not know that it would be a long-term solution to run from the problem.  Why does the community dislike your daughter?  There has to be some reason.

I don't know, but I think that the best thing for her might be a positive role model.  Also, I think an excellent thing might be martail arts classes.  Thye teach discipline, confidence, character, and of course how to defend yourself.

It is not impossible for something to change your child's life for the better.  But in my opinion, you have to think outside of the problem, and you have to believe that a solution is possible. Sending your child to a boarding school, in my veiw, is like giving up in a way.  I do not thinnk that you should give up on your child, or yourself. Try talking to as many people who you consider to be very successful parents as possible.  see what insights they may be able to share with you.

And again, I don't mean to be a dick, but you might want to look at yourself a bit, too.  Do you get bullied?  Cause, if the whole community is ganging up on your child, they are treating you with little respect.

This is just my veiw as an outside perspective.  maybe I am wrong.. maybe I am right.  If you are uninterested in my response, let me know.. I have no problem deleting it.


As far as the other girl, I do not have a solution,myself.. that is a rough one.  My desire would be to kick the dude ass, but that will only push her more towards him.  I think that this is one that just takes time, and being there for the child.


Paul
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