HLA Facebook Groups

[Lacey]

If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.

Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?

You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.

So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?

Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.

I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?

[TheWho]

If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.

Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?

You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.

So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?

Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.

I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?

Let me ask a question.  How come you view correcting a misconception as defending a program.  There was information presented that HLA had 100% failure during their licensure inspection by the ORS.  It was stated that they failed all the random inspection points.  Not one person challenged this on the board.  If I or someone stated that HLA passed the inspection with flying colors with 100% success rate we would have posters coming out of the woodwork calling the poster a liar and challenging their statements.  You have been here long enough to know this.  So why if there is false information presented which shows programs in a bad light then it is somehow acceptable and if I point this out then I am automatically a defender of programs and must be getting kickbacks or getting paid.

The reason I believe you don’t see this is because you were in 9 programs and your judgment is clouded and you cannot be objective or fair.  If someone states they were abused at HLA you take it face value.  If someone says they had a daughter who was helped by a program then they must be an imaginary daughter because this is not something you can comprehend.  If you look a little closer at it I am the one who is BETTER able to look at both sides of the industry and see the good as well as the bad where you are not capable of a fair view.  You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.

So the more pressing question would be why are you still here?  What value can you add by your presence?  How can you assess the truth and work to get it to the top and expose the corrupt areas?

[Inculcated]

Lacy got a program pimp to finally admit that this industry is damaging. Sure, this was in an attempt to side step the points posed in her post, but it’s astounding none the less.  

If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.

Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?

You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.

So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?

Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.

I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?

  You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.

Program pimp evidences circular "logic".^

[TheWho]

Lacy got a program pimp to finally admit that this industry is damaging. Sure, this was in an attempt to side step the points posed in her post, but it’s astounding none the less.

It would be short sighted of us to believe the industry can help everyone.  I don’t think we could name one industry which hasn’t damaged anyone.
Lets say we were talking about the car industry.  Do you think that a person who has been in 9 different cars and experienced a few major car accidents and ended up damaged could be objective about the car industry?  Would you support pulling every car off the road?  Or would you expect a person who had seen both the good and the bad side of the industry, like myself, to be more objective and work towards exposing the bad areas and rising up the good?

If you would like to point out the sidesteps I would be happy to respond.

[Inculcated]

That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.

[TheWho]

That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.

Well okay lets take a look at her post again.

Lacy asked: You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
Lacy answered: people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry.

Lacy asks again: So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry?
Lacy answered: people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry.

Lacy asks another question: What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve?
Lacy answers the question once again:  we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier.

Then Lacy asks: Why are you here?
I'll answer this one:  To add balance and to try to help expose the truth... there it is.  People have a hard time seeing this but I  manage to accomplish this here more often than you would like to believe.

[Inculcated]

That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.

Well okay lets take a look at her post again.

Then Lacy asks: Why are you here?
I'll answer this one:  To add balance and to try to help expose the truth... there it is.  People have a hard time seeing this but I  manage to accomplish this here more often than you would like to believe.

Otherwise programs would have to rely on Public Relations Firms for this “Balance.”
“Balance” includes discounting the value of firsthand accounts?
If an actuary deems the harm you might incur from the product of or services provided by an industry as being incidental would you accept that as cause to be dismissive of the consequences you might experience and the value of your testimony?

[Inculcated]

In order to keep the continuity of the topic at hand, I’m going to repost this.

If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.

Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?

You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.

So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?

Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.

I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?

(…and because I liked it so much)

[TheWho]

Otherwise programs would have to rely on Public Relations Firms for this “Balance.”
“Balance” includes discounting the value of firsthand accounts?

Exactly, when Lacey discounted my daughter’s experiences by saying she was imaginary I think this goes against what I am trying to do.  It is important to listen to all points of view, positive and negative.  In order to be balanced you need to keep an open mind.  If I stated that Laceys experiences were all in her mind I think that would be counterproductive to extending any further conversation between the two of us and the quality of our interaction would deteriorate rather quickly I would guess.

If an actuary deems the harm you might incur from the product of or services provided by an industry as being incidental would you accept that as cause to be dismissive of the consequences you might experience and the value of your testimony?

Well it depends on the total financial risk.  If it was incidental like you suggested but the person was in a position to absorb the loss fairly easily then I would say it would warrant challenging the actuaries suggestion and taking the risk (against professional opinion) if you felt it would be in yours or your childs best interest or if the downside was short.

[Anonymous]

So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".

If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?

What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?

You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.

The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.  

Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.

[/quote]



Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?

 He couldn’t explain how Hidden Lake Academy’s policy of abusing rape victims will help Lacey, a rape victim, in her (hypothetical) future rape—something it stipulated it will do for her. (the nerve)

Not that it really believes rape victims are helped by abuse. TheIt is not here to communicate, but to manipulate.
Rather like cultic processes, it aims  to  manipulate  certain emotional responses from its victims, and relies on psychological “tricks” (as best as it can from its vantage point from behind the internet) to influence survivors and readers. Rather like a program, with malice of forethought, it understands how certain emotional stimuli effects and confuses and comes to fornits to engage these "tools" against the children it once(i'll bet) abused from in the confines of a gulag.


TheIt has a series of canned, rehearsed responses it recites.
The one it spews in response to personal testimony of torment: “I am sorry that this happened to you. Not all programs are like this.”Then  TheIT will usually move to further deny their experience by stating it probably made him/her stronger, or they “know of” kids that where helped by the same thing s/he was traumatized by. Sometimes it will litterally laught "ha,ha,ha" at the account of abuse


Its spiel minimizes, trivializes, and denies the vicims’ experience .Invalidation is its own form of emotional abuse.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ver ... buse/82837
http://eqi.org/invalid.htm

Similarly, Hidden Lake Acadmy and Academy at Swift river have a canned incredibly emotionally abusive response for "parents" of its prisoners to recite when they report misery, abuse, slavery, torture: "I am sorry you are having difficulty, work your program."

TheIt is in deep with the cultic gulags and it is very aware of the emotionally abusive aspect of its responses, and selects them for this reason.

I would not be surprised it isn’t involved more deeply involved in cultic-gulags than even John “I killed my own son” Reuben. (Didn’t it mention at one point that “we” used operate one "short term" cult (EST?) until “we” realized that more “long term” treatment are necessary)

Ignore it. It lies. It mocks. It is pointless to engage. State your piece and don't let It control the conversation. Better yet, submit your experience to ISAC and HEAL in the form of sworn testimony. Best, go to the police, and then the media.

[TheWho]

Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?

Actually your first line goes against everything thewho/theit fights for.  If you bothered to read anything that he writes you would know that he doesnt believe "All" programs are good or that "All" programs are bad.  He believes both exist

He fights against your type of mentality and propaganda.

[Anonymous]

Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?

Actually your first line goes against everything thewho/theit fights for.  If you bothered to read anything that he writes you would know that he doesnt believe "All" programs are good or that "All" programs are bad.  He believes both exist

He fights against your type of mentality and propaganda.

If you could read, you'd understand the phrase "all programs not being bad" doesn't imply all programs are good. Similarly, "all dogs are not poodles," does not imply all dogs are poodles. Try again, child abusing proponant.

TheIt fights for the maintenance of his bank account and gets a twisted thrill by harassing survivors. TheIT is a duplicitous sociopath.

Still waiting for TheITs explanation of how he feels Hidden Lake Academy’s gave her the tools to prepare her for her hypothetical future rape.


Are you gonna regale us with how Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her,  and explain your contention, TheIt?

[TheWho]

Ha,Ha,Ha,  We would love to see the posted link on this one.

so now thewho said:  "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"...  we would love to see the link where he said this, but we all know you post untruths.  But that is what makes Fornits a nice challenge, doesnt it.

How about if we wait for Bruce to string together his guest posts.  Then we will see which post is whos.

you have to love this place, and they ask me why I post here!!

[Anonymous]

TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA?  Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues.  It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.

Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around.  Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.

I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.

Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.

I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.

I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.

What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?

I anxiously await your response.

I dont see myself as a defender of HLA.  I see myself as a defender of the truth.  I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there.  You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad.  Take the inspection results of HLA.  The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection.  To me this deception does everyone harm.  No one else spoke up except myself.  There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years.  The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs.  But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits.  Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is.  Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this.  But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.

But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.

I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program.  I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike.  Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.

So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you.  I do not condone that treatment.  I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not.  I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.  
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places.  They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data.  If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.

yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.

[Anonymous]

TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA?  Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues.  It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.

Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around.  Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.

I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.

Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.

I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.

I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.

What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?

I anxiously await your response.

I dont see myself as a defender of HLA.  I see myself as a defender of the truth.  I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there.  You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad.  Take the inspection results of HLA.  The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection.  To me this deception does everyone harm.  No one else spoke up except myself.  There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years.  The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs.  But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits.  Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is.  Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this.  But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.

But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.

I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program.  I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike.  Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.

So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you.  I do not condone that treatment.  I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not.  I dont condone harassment.  I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.  

But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places.  They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data.  If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45

yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.

As you gotta know that your words can be easily linked to and quoted, one must wonder what is your motivation for denying them?

What would Charles dederich, or Erhard say about that?