Time Magaizine Article on Mount Bachelor Academy

[Ursus]

How can you attribute cause to these deaths?  What about the 10’s of thousands of kids who commit suicide that never set foot inside of a program?  What are these attributed to?  Franks death may be the result of a breakup with a loved one or just tired that he wasn’t getting any better.  You should know better than this Ursus.
Its is just as likely that the programs prolonged this childs life and without them would have taken his life earlier.

Trust me, this was one fella that didn't exactly want for company.

As for the rest of your diverting two-step, it's a stinky load of semantic hooey. The primary credo amongst the medical (and psychological) helping professions is "First, DO NO HARM." Hence, your first question should be, "Can harm be inflicted on kids by using these methodologies?" It is not especially cogent to ask, "But can't we possibly attribute cause elsewhere?"

Nor is it relevant or necessary to solve the mystery of all other non-program associated suicides prior to taking steps to address suicides that, at the very least, appear to be integrally related to how the program experience affects some kids' self concepts.

Obviously, in a situation like this, where there are numerous variables that obfuscate the pattern, the complete truth can not be deductively told until the mortality rate becomes so glaringly obvious that the experiment cannot be allowed to continue. And, as you well know, this IS an experiment. Mucking around with still-developing psyches with this degree of invasiveness and on this scale has no precedent.

Just how bad does it have to get, Whooter, before you will join us in sounding the alarm?

[dishdutyfugitive]

When people post this information what are we suppose to take away from it?
If you have to ask, you'll never know (red hot chili peppers)

or what is the message?
Buy some Qtips and dig hard - you'll see the message. The message is loud and clear. A message from a person who went to a cedu program. From a person who took all the golden child steps at RMA. After graduation watched his friends and himself go through the fucking life adjusting wringer. A person who reflects on the past 20 years and sees the big picture,

That some kids just dont get better or respond well to treatment?
Check your head - You are an empty shell.
Look to the horizon, and ask yourself - why are you here?
In the schemes of things, what is your ultimate purpose ?
You're a drone whose only purpose is to be a key note speaker at the next emotional growth TTI conference.
Fuck you.
Fuck your hocus pocus

[dishdutyfugitive]

Ursus

A man on a mother fuckin mission.

[Che Gookin]

Best Thread Ever, and I just added MBA to the CEDUWATCH master-list. One of these days I'm gonna get me some webhosting and turn it into a proper website.

[dishdutyfugitive]

edit - double post

[TheWho]

Ursus, Dish,  Maybe a better question is “What is the cause?”.  If someone truly felt the programs caused an increase in suicide rates a knee jerk reaction might be to start looking at national statistics and start to roughly compare them to programs.  I am sure you will call me a jerk for this comparison or somehow twist it into some disrespect or survivor bashing but if I wanted to make a comparison to suicide and kids that attended catholic school I could probably keep in step with the posts here on fornits.  If I truly felt that these kids were abused I could make a pretty good case and post the names of kids everytime they killed themselves or went to jail for a crime to expose catholic schools as evil and sadistic.

What I have noticed is that some information seems to  always be left out.  Did frank have suicidal tendencies prior to entering the program?  Did he leave a note? What are all the possible causes?  The person posting her story here, Katie, has been tinkering with suicide prior to entering cross creek.  Would this fact be left out or discarded if something were to happen to her to try and make the program look responsible?

The reason I question the effort to blame programs for individual events is because there is a huge agenda and effort to paint programs in the worst light possible (This we can all see and agree on I believe).  Anything that occurs in a program that is negative is magnified 1,000 fold, if it is positive or happens outside the program it is ignored or written off as a good effort by the child in spite of the negative program effects.  For example when Katie (a person posting her story here) mentioned she was pushed down the stairs at public school we heard:

***Crickets***

Now compare that to if she wrote that she was pushed down the stairs inside of a program?:

OMG, how abusive,  Katie should sue them!!  Her parents are monsters for continuing to leave her there!!

The same for the bullying,  if that occurred inside the program there would be a different reaction and so on.  

How may these events contribute to or effect future negative events in here life?

There is a sense that we are not getting the whole story here and therefore it is not very believable.  Statistically how many cars on the lot can be “driven by and old lady to church on Sundays” before a persons begin to question the salesman’s sincerity?

[Che Gookin]

Actually at Mark and Cheryl Sudweek's little duckfarm in Montana they were sued for pushing a kid down the stairs. Among other things and ended up having to pony up 400k.

So Katie.. if you were pushed down the stairs do take note.

[TheWho]

Actually at Mark and Cheryl Sudweek's little duckfarm in Montana they were sued for pushing a kid down the stairs. Among other things and ended up having to pony up 400k.

So Katie.. if you were pushed down the stairs do take note.

Che, you just made my point!! lol

[psy]

Actually at Mark and Cheryl Sudweek's little duckfarm in Montana they were sued for pushing a kid down the stairs. Among other things and ended up having to pony up 400k.

So Katie.. if you were pushed down the stairs do take note.

Che, you just made my point!! lol

Big difference between a kid throwing another kid down the stairs (and likely getting punished for it) and a school OWNER throwing a kid down the stairs.

[Che Gookin]

Well that and the small fact that Whitmore was in Utah and not Montana. Same diff though.. If someone at Cross Creek pushed you down the stairs sue the shit out of them.

You know at the very least they have all the dosh they got out of your parents.

[TheWho]

Actually at Mark and Cheryl Sudweek's little duckfarm in Montana they were sued for pushing a kid down the stairs. Among other things and ended up having to pony up 400k.

So Katie.. if you were pushed down the stairs do take note.

Che, you just made my point!! lol

Big difference between a kid throwing another kid down the stairs (and likely getting punished for it) and a school OWNER throwing a kid down the stairs.

Just speaking equally...a kid gets thrown down the steps, bullied, raped by a teacher, denied rights, commits suicide etc. .  It is taken differently here (hoisted further up the flagpole so to speak) if these events occur within the borders of a program environment vs a public school setting with an implication that the program is somehow more dangerous or more malice took place.

[psy]

Just speaking equally...a kid gets thrown down the steps, bullied, raped by a teacher, denied rights, commits suicide etc. .  It is taken differently here (hoisted further up the flagpole so to speak) if these events occur within the borders of a program environment vs a public school setting with an implication that the program is somehow more dangerous or more malice took place.

I see your point, but I think you're missing mine.  If a kid is hurt by a teacher kid in a public school and it is reported, there are likely to be very serious consequences.  In a program, provided you claim it's part of the therapy somehow, it's likely to be completely ignored and/or swept under the run and/or blamed on the victim.  It's also far less likely that the kid will be able to contact his parents about the event without fear of reprisal.

Also keep in mind that maybe not much shocks any of us anymore.  So maybe there are instances of abuse in public schools...  of course there are... but it's nothing compared to the frequency and severity in a program.  No, there are no statistics on this (there hardly ever are about illegal or unethical practices), but when you ask an average public school student and ask an average program graduate the same questions regarding abuse, you consistently get vastly different results.

[TheWho]

see your point, but I think you're missing mine. If a kid is hurt by a teacher kid in a public school and it is reported, there are likely to be very serious consequences. In a program, provided you claim it's part of the therapy somehow, it's likely to be completely ignored and/or swept under the run and/or blamed on the victim. It's also far less likely that the kid will be able to contact his parents about the event without fear of reprisal. Also keep in mind that maybe not much shocks any of us anymore. So maybe there are instances of abuse in public schools... of course there are... but it's nothing compared to the frequency and severity in a program.  

I do agree that kids do not have as much opportunity to report back to their parents and oversight is not there, so there is a different level of risk.  But the perception seems to be just getting as much dirt on programs as possible or escalation of events disproportionately.  When a teacher raped a student in high school it was posted here on fornits and received 2 -3 responses.  If that same post had been about a newspaper article about a staff raping a kid in a program the response would be vastly different.  We would see this referred to on every thread regardless of which program this occurred in trying to make readers believe that staff rapes kids in every program and use the article as backup.  Remember the 300lb staff member who sat on a kid?

No, there are no statistics on this (there hardly ever are about illegal or unethical practices), but when you ask an average public school student and ask an average program graduate the same questions regarding abuse, you consistently get vastly different results.

On fornits you would get different results because for some reason kids who have been abused or didn’t have a good experience tend to gravitate here.  My child didn’t do well in the public school setting at all, but found great friends, grew and thrived tremendously in the program she was in.  It was a great match for her.
There are state agencies that keep track of illegal and unethical practices.. guns on school grounds, suicides, number of shootings, teachers involved etc., but they dont include programs
If someone really wanted to get a handle on suicides in programs or after programs they could begin to get a rough idea by identifying the number of programs out there and pull together the suicides by looking at sites like ciaca etc. and then compare this to the public school system you could get an idea if programs have a higher incidence of suicide than public schools.  It may not be exact but would lead a person to an understanding of if there is a pattern or not and if it were worth pursuing further.  I dont think you would find any difference from one to the other,  many seem to think that here because of their personal struggle or experiences, but there are thousands of other kids who have gone thru programs and done well.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Ah swell - it's our ol' pal the whoolio.

Philabustration ad nauseum.

The administrator's allow you to subvert and divert attention here as you please. Apparently, Fornits needs to tolerate theWho like the Pope needs to tolerate a Croatian prostitute performing pulpit auto erotica throughout a Sunday Mass. Fine.

Do your self a favor and don't attempt to speak, on any level, about issues directly related to post program suicide. That would require direct experience with losing a peer from your program to suicide. While you might fancy yourself a crafty, effective hired gun you're actually the most transparent pawn in Aspen's repetoire.

No, I don't think "Programs cause suicide" but it's clear as day that their 1 size fucks all approach doesn't help. People on the verge of committing suicide don't advertise it. They plan in silence. They move from planning to acting when they feel completely out of control. When there is no better option than a silent heart.

Experts say that pressuring trauma victims to retell their stories against their will tends to increase stress symptoms rather than alleviate them. And brain research associates feelings of shame and humiliation to stress responses that exacerbate depression and anxiety and may contribute to physical illness.

"There is absolutely no role for shame and humiliation in the treatment of youth," says Christopher Bellonci, medical director of the Walker School, a nonprofit serving children with serious mental, behavioral and learning problems. "I know of no clinical rationale for treating youth for any condition in that fashion ... They are engendering new trauma, not repairing it."

Most mental-health experts today strongly disagree with the use of brutal confrontation or humiliation as therapy — particularly for vulnerable youths who have troubled pasts. Research suggests that feelings of being out of control characterize the typical patient's response to traumatic life events; consequently, recovery requires the avoidance of coercion.

This is what the MBA case is about. This is what Fornits is about.

Forced, "pay us an arm and a leg", LGAT teenage mindfuckery is:

Unethical
Criminal
Detrimental

In case you weren't paying attention - I'll repeat Fornit's core message (which happens to be congruent with the APA)

brain research associates feelings of shame and humiliation to stress responses that exacerbate depression and anxiety

They are engendering new trauma, not repairing it.


Eventually, this theory will be proven fact. On that day, you can pay a stranger $300 a day to raise your kid and rectify your 13 years of botched parenting

but

they won't be allowed to yell at them and debase them in the name of 'teen salvation'


(aka program profit and faculty self-grandization.)

That will be a good day.

MBA will take the first blow. It will cripple, and soon after,  eradicate their runaway Prineville train.

Can you imagine the damage control flurry going on at Aspen right now?

Do yourself a favor Aspen - short your own stock. May I recommend etrade.com. First 10 stock trades are free.....

[Anonymous]

Ah swell - it's our ol' pal the whoolio.

Philabustration ad nauseum.

The administrator's allow you to subvert and divert attention here as you please. Apparently, Fornits needs to tolerate theWho like the Pope needs to tolerate a Croatian prostitute performing pulpit auto erotica throughout a Sunday Mass. Fine.

Do your self a favor and don't attempt to speak, on any level, about issues directly related to post program suicide. That would require direct experience with losing a peer from your program to suicide. While you might fancy yourself a crafty, effective hired gun you're actually the most transparent pawn in Aspen's repetoire.

No, I don't think "Programs cause suicide" but it's clear as day that their 1 size fucks all approach doesn't help. People on the verge of committing suicide don't advertise it. They plan in silence. They move from planning to acting when they feel completely out of control. When there is no better option than a silent heart.

Experts say that pressuring trauma victims to retell their stories against their will tends to increase stress symptoms rather than alleviate them. And brain research associates feelings of shame and humiliation to stress responses that exacerbate depression and anxiety and may contribute to physical illness.

"There is absolutely no role for shame and humiliation in the treatment of youth," says Christopher Bellonci, medical director of the Walker School, a nonprofit serving children with serious mental, behavioral and learning problems. "I know of no clinical rationale for treating youth for any condition in that fashion ... They are engendering new trauma, not repairing it."

Most mental-health experts today strongly disagree with the use of brutal confrontation or humiliation as therapy — particularly for vulnerable youths who have troubled pasts. Research suggests that feelings of being out of control characterize the typical patient's response to traumatic life events; consequently, recovery requires the avoidance of coercion.

This is what the MBA case is about. This is what Fornits is about.

Forced, "pay us an arm and a leg", LGAT teenage mindfuckery is:

Unethical
Criminal
Detrimental

In case you weren't paying attention - I'll repeat Fornit's core message (which happens to be congruent with the APA)

brain research associates feelings of shame and humiliation to stress responses that exacerbate depression and anxiety

They are engendering new trauma, not repairing it.


Eventually, this theory will be proven fact. On that day, you can pay a stranger $300 a day to raise your kid and rectify your 13 years of botched parenting

but

they won't be allowed to yell at them and debase them in the name of 'teen salvation'


(aka program profit and faculty self-grandization.)

That will be a good day.

MBA will take the first blow. It will cripple, and soon after,  eradicate their runaway Prineville train.

Can you imagine the damage control flurry going on at Aspen right now?

Do yourself a favor Aspen - short your own stock. May I recommend etrade.com. First 10 stock trades are free.....

its alredy proven fact google torture and suicide and thought reform, brainwashing and suicide. 1 in 5 People who are brainwashed while incacerated will commit suicide