Author Topic: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!  (Read 2266 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« on: March 24, 2009, 03:11:30 PM »
What the hell are we waiting for????




http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/24/ ... index.html

Commentary: Legalize drugs to stop violence

By Jeffrey A. Miron
Special to CNN
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Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University.

 CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Over the past two years, drug violence in Mexico has become a fixture of the daily news. Some of this violence pits drug cartels against one another; some involves confrontations between law enforcement and traffickers.

Recent estimates suggest thousands have lost their lives in this "war on drugs."

The U.S. and Mexican responses to this violence have been predictable: more troops and police, greater border controls and expanded enforcement of every kind. Escalation is the wrong response, however; drug prohibition is the cause of the violence.

Prohibition creates violence because it drives the drug market underground. This means buyers and sellers cannot resolve their disputes with lawsuits, arbitration or advertising, so they resort to violence instead.

Violence was common in the alcohol industry when it was banned during Prohibition, but not before or after.

Violence is the norm in illicit gambling markets but not in legal ones. Violence is routine when prostitution is banned but not when it's permitted. Violence results from policies that create black markets, not from the characteristics of the good or activity in question.

The only way to reduce violence, therefore, is to legalize drugs. Fortuitously, legalization is the right policy for a slew of other reasons.

Prohibition of drugs corrupts politicians and law enforcement by putting police, prosecutors, judges and politicians in the position to threaten the profits of an illicit trade. This is why bribery, threats and kidnapping are common for prohibited industries but rare otherwise. Mexico's recent history illustrates this dramatically.

Prohibition erodes protections against unreasonable search and seizure because neither party to a drug transaction has an incentive to report the activity to the police. Thus, enforcement requires intrusive tactics such as warrantless searches or undercover buys. The victimless nature of this so-called crime also encourages police to engage in racial profiling.

 Prohibition has disastrous implications for national security. By eradicating coca plants in Colombia or poppy fields in Afghanistan, prohibition breeds resentment of the United States. By enriching those who produce and supply drugs, prohibition supports terrorists who sell protection services to drug traffickers.

Prohibition harms the public health. Patients suffering from cancer, glaucoma and other conditions cannot use marijuana under the laws of most states or the federal government despite abundant evidence of its efficacy. Terminally ill patients cannot always get adequate pain medication because doctors may fear prosecution by the Drug Enforcement Administration.

Drug users face restrictions on clean syringes that cause them to share contaminated needles, thereby spreading HIV, hepatitis and other blood-borne diseases.

Prohibitions breed disrespect for the law because despite draconian penalties and extensive enforcement, huge numbers of people still violate prohibition. This means those who break the law, and those who do not, learn that obeying laws is for suckers.

Prohibition is a drain on the public purse. Federal, state and local governments spend roughly $44 billion per year to enforce drug prohibition. These same governments forego roughly $33 billion per year in tax revenue they could collect from legalized drugs, assuming these were taxed at rates similar to those on alcohol and tobacco. Under prohibition, these revenues accrue to traffickers as increased profits.

The right policy, therefore, is to legalize drugs while using regulation and taxation to dampen irresponsible behavior related to drug use, such as driving under the influence. This makes more sense than prohibition because it avoids creation of a black market. This approach also allows those who believe they benefit from drug use to do so, as long as they do not harm others.

Legalization is desirable for all drugs, not just marijuana. The health risks of marijuana are lower than those of many other drugs, but that is not the crucial issue. Much of the traffic from Mexico or Colombia is for cocaine, heroin and other drugs, while marijuana production is increasingly domestic. Legalizing only marijuana would therefore fail to achieve many benefits of broader legalization.

It is impossible to reconcile respect for individual liberty with drug prohibition. The U.S. has been at the forefront of this puritanical policy for almost a century, with disastrous consequences at home and abroad.

The U.S. repealed Prohibition of alcohol at the height of the Great Depression, in part because of increasing violence and in part because of diminishing tax revenues. Similar concerns apply today, and Attorney General Eric Holder's recent announcement that the Drug Enforcement Administration will not raid medical marijuana distributors in California suggests an openness in the Obama administration to rethinking current practice.

Perhaps history will repeat itself, and the U.S. will abandon one of its most disastrous policy experiments.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Jeffrey Miron.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 08:07:11 PM »
Wow! I haven't watched a lot of tv or read many papers in a long while. Just took a quick look around at the media on drug policy and HOLY JEEZE! I'm smilin! Instead of thinking this shit must all have been scripted by Batty and Calvina & Co. I'm thinking it all sounds like direct talking points from LEAP and DPF.

Ya think we might actually see an end to this stooopid war in the near future? Dare I hope?
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Offline psy

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 08:43:01 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Ya think we might actually see an end to this stooopid war in the near future? Dare I hope?
It's certainly possible.  It's not an "if" question at this point, it's "when".
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 08:47:52 PM »
Don't forget the law of unintended consequences. When it's legalized and big corporations take over the drug trade, you will complain about that. Wait until Phillip Morris type company gets ahold of meth, you think tobacco is bad? It ain't gunna happen. Too much money going around for all sides. Besides, in the wise words of zach morris, there's no hope with dope! :twofinger:
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Offline psy

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 08:57:42 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Don't forget the law of unintended consequences. When it's legalized and big corporations take over the drug trade, you will complain about that. Wait until Phillip Morris type company gets ahold of meth, you think tobacco is bad? It ain't gunna happen. Too much money going around for all sides. Besides, in the wise words of zach morris, there's no hope with dope! :twofinger:

Those consequences aren't unintended.  It's still the lesser of two evils.  People are going to use drugs legal or not.  People are going to make money off drugs, legal or not.  Only difference is whether it gets taxed, whether it's safe (as it can be), and whether age restrictions keep them out of the hands of kids.  It's easier for high school kids to get pot than it is to get alcohol.  That's a direct result of prohibition.  Not the drugs themselves.

Heroin, for example... Heroin was much safer when it was purer (overdoses were practically unheard of).  People technically don't die of heroin overdoses.  They die of impurities in today's heroin, related diseases, or from mixing it from other drugs.  It would be more accurate to say "heroin prohibition kills" than it would be to say heroin itself kills.  Read more on that here:

http://www.peele.net/lib/heroinoverdose.html

Similar goes for many other hard drugs.  Also... if you're into the state providing options, medical heroin is a lot cheaper and produces better results (people having a sustainable life and quitting at a higher rate):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/2 ... 47023.html

Also, if you're implying drugs legal = increased usage... that's just not true.  It's constant.  Prohibition didn't decrease usage (vs prior) and current surveys indicate people will not simply start using smack because it's suddenly legal.  Check out LEAP for more information on this.
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Offline Anonymous

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Let's all join the CULT OF PEELE! ALL HAIL THE MAGNIFICENT P
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 09:19:21 PM »
Yeah.. Peele has all the answers... no wait.... ariana huffington has all the answers!! Come on give it up, you know legalizing will just mean more crack heads and tweekers. why can't you admit it?? phillip moris will take over the drug trade and they can add a few hundred thousand  deaths to their tobacco deaths per year. do you think you're the first person who fights for a moral cause that ends up hurting people instead of helping? idealism stems from ignorance... !  but dont worry.. it wont happen soon.
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Offline psy

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Re: Let's all join the CULT OF PEELE! ALL HAIL THE MAGNIFICENT P
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 10:09:02 PM »
Quote from: "Peele is a God among men"
Yeah.. Peele has all the answers... no wait.... ariana huffington has all the answers!! Come on give it up, you know legalizing will just mean more crack heads and tweekers. why can't you admit it?? phillip moris will take over the drug trade and they can add a few hundred thousand  deaths to their tobacco deaths per year. do you think you're the first person who fights for a moral cause that ends up hurting people instead of helping? idealism stems from ignorance... !  but dont worry.. it wont happen soon.
You didn't adress any of my arguments (or peele's).  And no.  Legalizing will not mean more crackheads or tweakers.  Do you think suddenly because it's legal people are going to decide to start smoking crack?  You must be smoking crack if you think that.

Try and argue all you want.  The simple fact of the matter is that when substances are regulated and people don't rely on a black market, things are safer.  Were cigarettes illegal, tobacco would simply become a black market in which crime would thrive around it, people would be murdered, and kids would have easier access.  As it is, since tobacco is regulated, the only people it harms are those who consume it, and self harm is a right.  If people choose to harme themselves with crack or heroin, at least they won't be kids.  At least they'll be safer.  At least diseases won't spread.  At least overdoses will be less common.  etc, etc...

The only argumetn prohibitionists such as yourself really have is the false claim that more people will used drugs if they are legal.  This is false.  Go to leap's site and check out some of the research they site, or do your own.  Drug use is constant.  It always has been and always will be.  Trying to fight that is futile.  Where there is demand, there will *always* be supply.  The question is channeling that supply safely into the right hands (away from kids), and that can *only* be done if it's legal.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 11:48:12 PM »
Quote
When it's legalized and big corporations take over the drug trade, you will complain about that. Wait until Phillip Morris type company gets ahold of meth, you think tobacco is bad?

Just as long as they dont put high fructose corn syrup in it, its all good by me. The last thing I want is meth that tastes artificial.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: Let's all join the CULT OF PEELE! ALL HAIL THE MAGNIFICENT P
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 01:36:41 AM »
Quote from: "Peele is a God among men"
Come on give it up, you know legalizing will just mean more crack heads and tweekers. why can't you admit it??

Are you the guy? Seriously. If you're the one dude, you know, the one who's sitting home thinking "Damn! I'd like to smoke some crack if only it were legal!"? If you're that guy, give it up now and leave the rest of us in peace, please?
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Offline try another castle

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Re: Let's all join the CULT OF PEELE! ALL HAIL THE MAGNIFICENT P
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 06:33:20 AM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "Peele is a God among men"
Come on give it up, you know legalizing will just mean more crack heads and tweekers. why can't you admit it??

Are you the guy? Seriously. If you're the one dude, you know, the one who's sitting home thinking "Damn! I'd like to smoke some crack if only it were legal!"? If you're that guy, give it up now and leave the rest of us in peace, please?

10/10

 :seg:
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Offline Carmel

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Re: Let's all join the CULT OF PEELE! ALL HAIL THE MAGNIFICENT P
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 11:44:14 AM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "Peele is a God among men"
Come on give it up, you know legalizing will just mean more crack heads and tweekers. why can't you admit it??

Are you the guy? Seriously. If you're the one dude, you know, the one who's sitting home thinking "Damn! I'd like to smoke some crack if only it were legal!"? If you're that guy, give it up now and leave the rest of us in peace, please?



LOLOLOL, Right?  Why do people think that legalization=more availability?  The shit's everywhere already and available to anyone!

My decision not to smoke crack right now has zero to do with its availablility or legality...if I wanted crack tomorrow, I could get crack tomorrow.  Just because I might be able to pick it up at CVS instead of the bus stop, isnt going to change my choice not to smoke crack.  In fact, if coke were legal, there is a high probability that there would no longer be a need for crack at all...the regular shit would be so much better!

Just like this whole thing with "Plan B"......kids arent sitting around going....I think ill lose my virginity tonight with a complete stranger because in the morning I can go pick up some Plan B.  

These alleged people that prohibitionists speak about sure are a dumb shit bunch of yokels, pickin up some heroin just for shits and giggles.....they certainly dont exist in my world!
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 05:00:12 PM »
Pass the kool-aid around! The way you suck up to your "leader" here at fornits is embarrassing (for you). It's common sense if you can get crack or meth without fear of going to jail and without driving into the ghetto and getting robbed, but instead go pick it up at the liquor store, many more people will be willing to try and use it regularly.

I know, I know. You somehow have come to the conclusion that "the drug war" was responsible for you being placed in a program, amiright? Yeah.. about that. That's why nobody takes you seriously. Cuz, your crazy, holmes. Now listen up, esse... just because you post on a forum that somebody created (something a bout a million people do per day) doesn't mean you have to stick your head all the way up their ass and adopt their point of view.

Group think at fornits is running full speed ahead, I see... just waiting for you all to fly off to the Congo and stock up on the kool-aid. IF YOU DONT KILL YOURSELF NOW THEYLL SEND YOU BACK TO THE PROGRAM!!!!!!! I can see it now, it's sad , pathetic and funny all at the same time. ForNUTS at it again.. wow, you motherfuddas are cwazy.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 11:32:03 PM »
Quote
You somehow have come to the conclusion that "the drug war" was responsible for you being placed in a program, amiright?

What the fuck does this have to do with advocating legalization? Can you establish definitively and with proof that every single person in this discussion  feels this way because they were butthurt by the program?


See, cause that would be kind of weird, especially since I supported legalization before I even got sent away. :P


You fail.


PS.. I guess that since  you are saying "you" when you address everyone in this thread, (implying that you were never in placement) it's because you have some other interest in frequenting a program survivor forum? To talk shit?

Although I really dont give a fuck anyway. It's a forum.
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Offline FemanonFatal2.0

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Re: LEGALIZE IT ALREADY!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2009, 04:26:51 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Pass the kool-aid around! The way you suck up to your "leader" here at fornits is embarrassing (for you). It's common sense if you can get crack or meth without fear of going to jail and without driving into the ghetto and getting robbed, but instead go pick it up at the liquor store, many more people will be willing to try and use it regularly.

I know, I know. You somehow have come to the conclusion that "the drug war" was responsible for you being placed in a program, amiright? Yeah.. about that. That's why nobody takes you seriously. Cuz, your crazy, holmes. Now listen up, esse... just because you post on a forum that somebody created (something a bout a million people do per day) doesn't mean you have to stick your head all the way up their ass and adopt their point of view.

Group think at fornits is running full speed ahead, I see... just waiting for you all to fly off to the Congo and stock up on the kool-aid. IF YOU DONT KILL YOURSELF NOW THEYLL SEND YOU BACK TO THE PROGRAM!!!!!!! I can see it now, it's sad , pathetic and funny all at the same time. ForNUTS at it again.. wow, you motherfuddas are cwazy.

You fail to realize that things like "crack" wouldn't be sold in stores, at most, a prescription for a drug that has similar effects would most likely be what would be available. You would never be able to buy "crack" at your local liquor store lol. I personally think the only thing that would change is that cops would be putting less and less drug offenders in jail, which is good news for tax payers but thats about it. I think taking drugs, just like alcohol and tobacco are all moral issues and its up to the parents to teach their kids right from wrong, not for the government to spend billions of dollars doing their job for them.

I'm not necessarily in favor of legalizing drugs, cannabis yes, but drugs like cocaine and heroin need to be regulated in one way or another. I am in favor of decriminalizing drug usage as it is a personal choice however I think the sale of such substances should be another story. I don't know, I don't have the answers, as usual there are always gray areas when it comes to personal choice vs government intervention. I don't think legalizing drugs would really solve any problems, change yes, but there would still be just as many drug addicts, the same amount of crime and tax payers will still be paying the price for these moral issues being enforced as law in one form or another.

The only way that our social issues with drugs will change is if a national health care system were set up. Too many people are self medicating because they can't get or afford proper health care. If that problem was solved, addicts would be come patients, drug dealers would be squashed by the pharmaceutical companies and tax payers money could go toward a solution instead of throwing money into a lose/lose battle. I never understood what was so scary about socialism... I really don't think socialist heathcare would destroy capitolism, maybe the likes of AIG and Kaiser Permenate but that wouldn't make much a difference. Well maybe I'm just an idealist.
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Offline Froderik

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health care tangent
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2009, 07:44:19 AM »
Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0"
The only way that our social issues with drugs will change is if a national health care system were set up. Too many people are self medicating because they can't get or afford proper health care. If that problem was solved, addicts would be come patients, drug dealers would be squashed by the pharmaceutical companies and tax payers money could go toward a solution instead of throwing money into a lose/lose battle. I never understood what was so scary about socialism... I really don't think socialist heathcare would destroy capitolism, maybe the likes of AIG and Kaiser Permenate but that wouldn't make much a difference. Well maybe I'm just an idealist.
Hell, as long as the quality was there, I'd take socialized health care, or even dictator-ized health care!  :rofl:  But in Canada they tell ya to get lost when you're 65, is this not true?? There might have been a day when that wouldn't have worried me, but those days are gone...
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