Author Topic: Founder's Findings  (Read 6831 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Founder's Findings
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 09:42:15 AM »
At least Gibbon was a true scholar, cited all sources and preferred the originals, even posed critique and analysis of his "footnotes"
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Founder's Findings
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 07:57:40 PM »
Quote from: "No. 7"
At least Gibbon was a true scholar, cited all sources and preferred the originals, even posed critique and analysis of his "footnotes"

   True.  My point is that people have been pointing at societal  moral decline for hundreds of years.  Social critics in the jazz age decried the loss of public virtue 20 - 40 years before the zenith of American Empire.  It wasn't porn, pot or promiscuity that got us, ( I am assuming that you, Number 7, are a US citizen or live in an allied nation) to this nasty nadir, it was idiots like Rumsfeld and McNamara that squandered the blood and treasure of Our Great Nation.   "Some blame the management, some the employees": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlAPDQdHqCY   "Philosophy is useless theology is worse."  Who would have thought a Scot could be so pithy my blue eyed son?

Be seeing you
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Founder's Findings
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 09:11:35 AM »
Quote from: "# 6"
Quote from: "No. 7"
At least Gibbon was a true scholar, cited all sources and preferred the originals, even posed critique and analysis of his "footnotes"

   True.  My point is that people have been pointing at societal  moral decline for hundreds of years.  Social critics in the jazz age decried the loss of public virtue 20 - 40 years before the zenith of American Empire.  It wasn't porn, pot or promiscuity that got us, ( I am assuming that you, Number 7, are a US citizen or live in an allied nation) to this nasty nadir, it was idiots like Rumsfeld and McNamara that squandered the blood and treasure of Our Great Nation.   "Some blame the management, some the employees": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlAPDQdHqCY   "Philosophy is useless theology is worse."  Who would have thought a Scot could be so pithy my blue eyed son?

Be seeing you

Aye.. My response was not to the substance, but a comparison of the seekers. Gibbon with his decades-long quest researching ancient documents and scrupulous scholarship, vs. Gauld with his narcissistic bombastic posturing, Reader's Digest, pop psychology, and LGAT experiences. Maybe that's an exaggeration of the former, but not of the latter.

As to substance? Maybe a tension is necessary between the moral condemners and the vacuous optimists, for them to feed off one another so persistently through the ages. An unfortunate, and sometimes fatal, tragedy for those caught in the mesh of one or the other.

Some sights are better left unseen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIil8k5QnFU
    And I know I will be loosened
    from the bonds that hold me fast
    and the chains all around me
    will fall away at last
    [/list]
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    Offline Ursus

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    Founder's Findings #5
    « Reply #18 on: April 07, 2009, 04:06:52 PM »
    Lols. For some reason, I don't think Joe is exactly the best person to be lecturing others about the "crass new value of personal gain."

    —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•—

    Founder's Findings #5: Pay Students for Academic Achievement???
    9/23/2008

    If anyone still thinks that our educational system may not be unsound or even corrupt, they should take note of practices in both New York City and Washington, DC in which they are now paying students money on a monthly basis for academic achievement!

    So students are not only now commodities to be "bought and paid for," but this practice replaces the character quality of curiosity with the crass new value of personal gain. To give you some idea of the tragic loss, while the system woodenly seeks to motivate students with such lesser human motivations, home school students obviously continue to instead utilize the more potent power of curiosity. A University of Maryland study of 24,000 home schooled students found that by ninth-grade, they were academically four grades ahead of their public school counterparts!

    Don't mess with Mother Nature.

    - Joseph Gauld
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    Offline Anonymous

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    Re: Founder's Findings
    « Reply #19 on: April 07, 2009, 05:46:37 PM »
    Joe is no scholar.  So yeah there is the part where I disagree with his premise and then there is a lack of scholarship.  I am no scholar myself, but have dabbled in some management theory.  My bent is to look at systemic causes rather then blame the individuals working in that system.

    Joe is doing the Professor Hill. Trouble! Right here in River City, rather then a true Jeremiad.  Howl was not selling anything.

    BSY
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    Offline Anonymous

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    Re: Founder's Findings
    « Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 05:54:46 PM »
    Lawrence Rudner's (University of Maryland) 1998 study shows that homeschool parents have a higher income than average (1.4 times by one estimate),[53] and are more likely to have an advanced education. Rudner found that homeschooling parents tend to have more formal education than parents in the general population; that the median income for homeschooling families ($52,000) is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States ($36,000); that 98% of homeschooled children live in "married couple families"; that 77% of home school mothers do not participate in the labour force, whereas 98% of homeschooling fathers do participate in the labour force; and that median annual expenses for educational materials are approximately $400 per home school student.[64]



      There is some self selection for success in that sample pool, rather then an argument for one method over another.  HE must not have even read the study or LIED about it thinking that no one else would.

    Source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling
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    Offline Ursus

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    How the Founder interprets data
    « Reply #21 on: April 08, 2009, 02:11:11 PM »
    Excellent find, Flounder!  :tup:

    It turns out that this study actually does make that statement, however that statement does not quite claim to mean what Gauld would have you believe.

    Lawrence Rudner notes, with regard to GES interpretations (colored emphasis mine):

    Quote
    Grade Equivalent Scores are particularly useful for estimating a student's developmental status in terms of grade. But, these scores must be interpreted carefully. An GES Score of 6.3 in reading for an 9 year old in the 3rd grade, for example, clearly indicates that the third grader is doing well. This does not, however, mean that the third grader belongs in the 6th grade. It only means that the third grader can read as well as a sixth grader.

    The usual interpretation of a Grade Equivalent Score of 6.3 for a third grader is that this third grade student can read third grade material as well as a sixth grader can read third grade material, not that he or she can read sixth grade material.

    As to Joe's specific claims, namely: "A University of Maryland study of 24,000 home schooled students found that by ninth-grade, they were academically four grades ahead of their public school counterparts!" ...Well, the study was actually of "20,760 students in 11,930 families" (not 24,000), but that might be too petty a fact to quibble over. And he also got the grade wrong, but I'll assume for the sake of simplicity that this was due to faulty memory or a typographical error. The original from whence Joe's prose was gleaned is from the following section discussing Table 3.5 (colored and underlined emphasis mine):

    Quote
    Compared to students nationwide, the median fourth-grade home school student test performance is 1.1 grade equivalents above his public/private school peers. By 8th grade, the median performance of home school students on the ITBS/TAP is almost four grade equivalents above that of students nationwide. Similar trends hold for all subject areas.

    The reader should recognize that the grade equivalent scale tends to magnify differences at the high school level and that the percentile scale is more meaningful in these higher grades. While 50% of eighth grade home school students have scores that are 4 grade equivalents above the public school median, so do some 20% of eighth grade students in public schools. The revealing statistics are the percentiles which are consistently high across grade levels and subject areas.

    This certainly does point to a statistically higher academic performance in home-schooled kids (in THIS particular study), but does not, by any stretch of the imagination imply or infer that home schooled 8th graders are ready to commence their college matriculations by the following year.

    Joe choose to interpret "Grade Equivalent Scores" to be ... equivalent to ... GRADES:

      "
    4 grade equivalents above the public school median" (Rudner)

    .........DOES NOT EQUAL.........

    "four grades ahead of their public school counterparts" (Gauld)[/list]
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    Offline Anonymous

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    Re: Founder's Findings
    « Reply #22 on: April 08, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »
    My point is that Joe is contrasting good family values vs the corrupting influence of money.  The study shows that the families that home school have more money. Family incomes in this group were much higher then the median income of 1998 AND the Moms were able to stay at home AND Mom and Dad were more highly educated then the norm.  So you are comparing a socio-economically advantaged population with the norm, then contrasing that with inner city kids that are motivated by money.  Am I missing something here?

       Ok if that was not enough Mr Attitude over Aptitude, who is so high and mighty about rejecting the achievement culture of public schools, is using a public school achievement metric in his argument.

    Something is fishy and I don't think it is sole.
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    Offline Ursus

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    Re: Founder's Findings
    « Reply #23 on: April 08, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »
    Quote from: "A fluke is not a flounder"
    My point is that Joe is contrasting good family values vs the corrupting influence of money.  The study shows that the families that home school have more money. Family incomes in this group were much higher then the median income of 1998 AND the Moms were able to stay at home AND Mom and Dad were more highly educated then the norm.  So you are comparing a socio-economically advantaged population with the norm, then contrasing that with inner city kids that are motivated by money.  Am I missing something here?

       Ok if that was not enough Mr Attitude over Aptitude, who is so high and mighty about rejecting the achievement culture of public schools, is using a public school achievement metric in his argument.

    Something is fishy and I don't think it is sole.

    I couldn't agree more. Plus... it's all very well for Joe to reject the "achievement culture" once HE himself has already achieved economic security (by virtue of fleecing the desperate-parent contingent)...

    Note also that Joe Gauld didn't exactly start at the bottom, despite his tear-jerking depictions of penurious difficulty. He grew up in Wellesley, MA -- where the average median property value is currently at least $900,000, if I'm not mistaken -- Chrissakes, just how bad could it have been?! (Blanche Westhaver Gauld also grew up there for the latter part of her childhood; from the age of 9 years old onwards, if Hyde's own lore is to be believed.)

    Some snippets from Wikipedia:

    Quote
    Higher education

    ...According to Boston Magazine's yearly "Best Places To Live," Wellesley ranks first in the United States in percentage of adults who hold at least one college degree. Over 66% of the households have at least one individual holding an advanced degree beyond a Bachelor's Degree. In 2009, Wellesley ranked #2 in "America's Most Educated Small Towns" according to Forbes.

    <snip snip>

    Wellesley's Wonderful Weekend

    Each year the weekend before Memorial Day, The Town of Wellesley sponsors the annual Wellesley's Wonderful Weekend which includes the annual Veterans' Parade and Fireworks. The fireworks display is one of the most elaborate and spectacular shows that is done by local or town government in the United States. It is put on by Atlas Fireworks of Jaffrey, NH who also put on the Jaffrey Festival of Fireworks. On Sunday, May 18, 2008 the Beach Boys performed in a concert on the Wellesley High School athletic fields in front of an estimated 10,000 town residents and fans. The funds for the performance, an estimated 250 thousand dollars, were made as a gift by an anonymous donor and life long fan of the band.
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    Offline Ursus

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    Re: Founder's Findings #5
    « Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 06:52:09 PM »
    Quote from: "A fluke is not a flounder"
    My point is that Joe is contrasting good family values vs the corrupting influence of money.  The study shows that the families that home school have more money. Family incomes in this group were much higher then the median income of 1998 AND the Moms were able to stay at home AND Mom and Dad were more highly educated then the norm.  So you are comparing a socio-economically advantaged population with the norm, then contrasing that with inner city kids that are motivated by money.  Am I missing something here?

       Ok if that was not enough Mr Attitude over Aptitude, who is so high and mighty about rejecting the achievement culture of public schools, is using a public school achievement metric in his argument.

    Something is fishy and I don't think it is sole.

    I have just a couple more points to make before going on to the next "Finding"... Not that this one necessarily deserves so much attention, but just because I still have said points percolating in my mind...

    To recap thus far (if I interpret the other comments correctly):

      1. Joe sees fit to compare the incomparable, i.e., a socio-economically advantaged population with the whole student population, which includes kids from all socio-economic strata (btw, this is exactly the strategy used by some conservative charter school proponents to skew interpretation of school test results in their favor, i.e., they compare results with districts that include large urban districts instead of just their own, often more affluent neighborhoods).[/list]
        2. Joe decries money-based incentives used by inner-city parents in an effort to better their kids' motivation to excel, saying, "this practice replaces the character quality of curiosity with the crass new value of personal gain." Geeeezzzz... Some folk can ill afford the "curiosity" when they are just barely surviving the economic gauntlet. For shame that these parents should resort to gauche tricks in the hopes that their kids have a better life than they do.[/list]
          3. Joe is using public school standards of comparison (i.e., standardized tests) to evaluate the relative strengths of a public vs. a home schooled education. These are, of course, but a small portion of the entire educational experience.[/list]
            4. Joe cannot read or interpret data correctly. 'Nuff said.[/list]

            Okay... Two more points:

            5. The study Joe chose to cite may well be atypical. The demographics of the population in Lawrence Rudner's study would appear to be significantly different, on certain axes, than that found in a 2000–2001 Barna Survey of homeschooling parents. Wikipedia (same article) summarizes those demographics as follows (italics as per original):

            Quote
            According to a 2000–2001 Barna survey,[61][62] home school parents are 39 percent less likely to be college graduates, 21 percent more likely to be married, 28 percent less likely to have experienced a divorce, and that the household income is 10% below the national average. Barna found that homeschoolers in the U.S. live predominantly in the Mid-Atlantic, the South-Atlantic, and the Pacific states. It found that homeschoolers are almost twice as likely to be evangelical as the national average (15 percent vs 8 percent), and that 91 percent describe themselves as Christian, although only 49 percent can be classified as "born again Christians." It found they were five times more likely to describe themselves as "mostly conservative" on political matters than as "mostly liberal," although only about 37 percent chose "mostly conservative", and were "notably" more likely than the national average to have a high view of the Bible and hold orthodox Christian beliefs.

            One might even say that ... Joe seeks results to match his premise?

            6. The reference to homeschooling in Joe's Finding #5 is not trivial. I imagine that home schoolers are, in fact, a significant portion of the target audience that The Biggest Job materials are marketed to. Or, for that matter, the Hyde Foundation materials...
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            Offline Ursus

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            Founder's Findings #6
            « Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 10:28:39 AM »
            Onwards...

            LOL! According to Joe Gauld... it always boils down to preventing a child from manipulating the parent, doesn't it? Joe must have been pretty good at it in his day, for him to obsess about it for so many decades later...

            —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•—

            Founder's Findings #6: Do not seek your child's love.
            9/30/2008

            A child enters the world knowing he/she is totally dependent upon an adult for survival. Thus, the child quickly internalizes the fear of abandonment, including the fear the parent may become distracted by other interests. Therefore, the child earnestly seeks the parent's love in order to feel the security of knowing this adult will always be there for him/her.

            But when the parent seeks the child's love, the child soon realizes there is no longer any need to seek the parent's love—he/she already has it. In fact, the child now has the luxury of learning how to manipulate the parent's 'love' in order to have life his/her own way!

            So, simply focus on properly preparing your child for life, and you will gain both your child's trust and love.

            - Joseph Gauld
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            Offline Anonymous

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            Re: Founder's Findings
            « Reply #26 on: April 27, 2009, 11:09:14 AM »
            A child enters the world knowing he/she is totally dependent upon an adult for survival. Thus, the child quickly internalizes the fear of abandonment, including the fear the parent may become distracted by other interests. Therefore, the child earnestly seeks the parent's love in order to feel the security of knowing this adult will always be there for him/her.

            When the child seeks the parent's love, the parent soon realizes there is no longer any need to seek the child's love—he/she already has it. In fact, the parent now has the luxury of learning how to manipulate the child's 'love' in order to have life his/her own way!
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            Offline Ursus

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            Re: Founder's Findings #6
            « Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 06:23:50 PM »
            Quote from: "The Gauldian view of love"
            A child enters the world knowing he/she is totally dependent upon an adult for survival. Thus, the child quickly internalizes the fear of abandonment, including the fear the parent may become distracted by other interests. Therefore, the child earnestly seeks the parent's love in order to feel the security of knowing this adult will always be there for him/her.

            When the child seeks the parent's love, the parent soon realizes there is no longer any need to seek the child's love—he/she already has it. In fact, the parent now has the luxury of learning how to manipulate the child's 'love' in order to have life his/her own way!

             :rofl:  :rofl:  
            Unfortunately, that is exactly how some parents are...
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            Offline Anonymous

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            Re: Founder's Findings
            « Reply #28 on: April 28, 2009, 12:01:59 AM »
            This Founder's Finding takes a big step toward explaining how some weird old dude dressed in plaid visits a college campus and red-faced and spittle-mouthed "has his way" with a fresh Hyde grad.

            Incidentally, my parents, who were out of the Hyde loop, were the first to tell me about Joe's exploit. Word traveled in the pre-Internet era.
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            Offline Anonymous

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            Re: Founder's Findings
            « Reply #29 on: April 28, 2009, 09:43:03 AM »
            Quote from: "With fine disregard for the rules"
            This Founder's Finding takes a big step toward explaining how some weird old dude dressed in plaid visits a college campus and red-faced and spittle-mouthed "has his way" with a fresh Hyde grad.

            Incidentally, my parents, who were out of the Hyde loop, were the first to tell me about Joe's exploit. Word traveled in the pre-Internet era.


               I still can't get my head around that one.   I am just about Joe's age in ,what 1978?  I just can't see my self hooking up with a college freshman, a college freshman's Mom maybe.  Not a girl less then half my age.  And then to have had an authority figure role in the girls life ..... geez.  She seem to be doing ok but I got to believe it would have left a mark.  I would think that would estrange you from your peers: hey! there's the girl that banged Joe.   I bet she has never been back to any of the Hyde reunions even thought she was a popular and well liked student.  I have to admit I don't have that problem.  "What he doing here?" is the reaction I get when I visit Bath.  Ancient history.
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