Author Topic: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline Carmel

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Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« on: January 28, 2009, 02:34:38 PM »
Ive been reading about the litter of 8 that this woman just gave birth to, and I just need to express my thoughts on the whole fertility treatment thing and how I perceive that it effects us as a species.

I have had three children of my own, and I understand the importance of a woman wishing to beget her own natural offspring, however....I do feel that the level of entitlement women feel these days about whether or not its acceptable to force that particular issue has crossed way over several ethical boundaries...not to mention natural ones.

Firstly, women are generally not being responsible in listening to their natural body rhythms and addressing the issues of bearing children at a biologically optimal age.  Theres this new thing about waiting until they are 40 and at the brink of life-change before having the commitment necessary to share their lives with a child.  This has its own special circumstances in many ways Im sure, but I think its borne of a poor world climate on taking accountability.  Not to mention a horribly skewed idea called "feminism" which has been taken completely out of context (but thats another thread).

Secondly, once women do decide they wish to concieve, its often times very difficult due to 1) the consumption of chemical birth control for an inordinate amount of time, and 2) advanced age and stalling biological cues.  Enter the handy dandy fertility doctor.

I dont get the impression that fertility professionals are adequately guiding their clients in the ethical possibilities of extreme measures of conception and the resulting consequences, i.e. unnatural multiple births, fetal risk, maternal risk, and what I think is the most important issue...

THE EFFECTS OF POOR PROLIFERATION ON THE HUMAN GENETIC POOL

We must consider the idea that there may be very valid REASONS why a particular woman cannot conceive or should not attempt to concieve at a given period in life, or if her body exhibits marked reluctance to do so.  Its also important to take into account the traits being passed on by less than optimal examples of humanity due to unfettered reproduction and sub-standard fetal completion.  What is the general level of health and vitality going to look like in 100 years after generations of forced conception and inadequate develoment?  I think that is a HUGE ethical consideration when talking about infertility.

I was just reading a womans posting on whether or not she felt society should have say in the limitations on multiple fetal conception from infertility treatment....and after a lengthy diatribe about the painful and horrific process she endured via fertility treatments and hormone therapy, she was incensed at the idea of "interferance" from an outside agenda.  What is it exactly that she thinks she's been doing all this time?

Put very simply, instead of wonder if we could make this a possibility, we are not even considering if we SHOULD.

Thoughts?

 :soapbox:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 02:51:59 PM »
What pisses me off is these women refusing to terminate a few of the embryos because it's "God's Will" that they have that many kids.  Bull. Fucking. Shit.  "God" apparently didn't want you having ANY kids ya stooopid bitch.  Otherwise you wouldn't have needed the goddamned fertility drugs in the first fucking place!!!!!!!

And then we're all supposed to feel for them and send them donations so they can support their family.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
 :twofinger:  ::)
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Offline psy

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 03:01:39 PM »
How the hell does one fit 8 babies in one tummy (much less push the all out!)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 03:03:20 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
How the hell does one fit 8 babies in one tummy (much less push the all out!)?

They don't push them out.  They come out via C-section.  And very often they're delivered early, with huge medical complications that the parents (very often) can't pay for.  Guess who pays??
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Offline psy

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 03:22:42 PM »
Quote from: "belly buster"
Quote from: "psy"
How the hell does one fit 8 babies in one tummy (much less push the all out!)?

They don't push them out.  They come out via C-section.  And very often they're delivered early, with huge medical complications that the parents (very often) can't pay for.  Guess who pays??
I'm gonna go with the usual and guess either taxpayer or insurance...  either way, the rest of society.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 03:46:42 PM »
This is just the pre-party.

Wait until cloning becomes economical.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 06:40:34 PM »
Quote from: "Carmel"
Ive been reading about the litter of 8 that this woman just gave birth to, and I just need to express my thoughts on the whole fertility treatment thing and how I perceive that it effects us as a species.

I have had three children of my own, and I understand the importance of a woman wishing to beget her own natural offspring, however....I do feel that the level of entitlement women feel these days about whether or not its acceptable to force that particular issue has crossed way over several ethical boundaries...not to mention natural ones.

Firstly, women are generally not being responsible in listening to their natural body rhythms and addressing the issues of bearing children at a biologically optimal age.  Theres this new thing about waiting until they are 40 and at the brink of life-change before having the commitment necessary to share their lives with a child.  This has its own special circumstances in many ways Im sure, but I think its borne of a poor world climate on taking accountability.  Not to mention a horribly skewed idea called "feminism" which has been taken completely out of context (but thats another thread).

Secondly, once women do decide they wish to concieve, its often times very difficult due to 1) the consumption of chemical birth control for an inordinate amount of time, and 2) advanced age and stalling biological cues.  Enter the handy dandy fertility doctor.

I dont get the impression that fertility professionals are adequately guiding their clients in the ethical possibilities of extreme measures of conception and the resulting consequences, i.e. unnatural multiple births, fetal risk, maternal risk, and what I think is the most important issue...

THE EFFECTS OF POOR PROLIFERATION ON THE HUMAN GENETIC POOL

We must consider the idea that there may be very valid REASONS why a particular woman cannot conceive or should not attempt to concieve at a given period in life, or if her body exhibits marked reluctance to do so.  Its also important to take into account the traits being passed on by less than optimal examples of humanity due to unfettered reproduction and sub-standard fetal completion.  What is the general level of health and vitality going to look like in 100 years after generations of forced conception and inadequate develoment?  I think that is a HUGE ethical consideration when talking about infertility.

I was just reading a womans posting on whether or not she felt society should have say in the limitations on multiple fetal conception from infertility treatment....and after a lengthy diatribe about the painful and horrific process she endured via fertility treatments and hormone therapy, she was incensed at the idea of "interferance" from an outside agenda.  What is it exactly that she thinks she's been doing all this time?

Put very simply, instead of wonder if we could make this a possibility, we are not even considering if we SHOULD.

Thoughts?

 :soapbox:

"Litter of eight", that's hilarious.......

I'm pretty much in agreement with ya on this one, Carmel.  It's damned weird though, and you bring up a good point, how the folks that would NEVER consider abortion (or even contraception) 'cause they "don't wanna interfere with God's will" (or whatever) are some of the first in line to use modern medicine to bring to fruition their plans of unnatural conception.

btw, I tend to agree with your take on the feminist movement as well.......now I'm sure I'll be labled a chauvinist, but I can live with that......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 09:08:11 PM »
In the name of "industrial revolution 2.0" and Capitalism we're on the fast track to a world where clones will be commonplace.

news article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28873003/

http://bestfriendsagain.com/


You want a quality stock pick ? Invest money in a bioengineering company like Bioarts.

Why?

Gen X (teens and young adults of the 80's ) is infamous for it's propensity to substitute children and/or spouses with a pet. (Remember the rise of 'doggy day care' that started in the mid 90's? It's still alive and well).
The dysfunctional attachment to one's pet will drive the market for pet cloning.

http://www.bioarts.com/pet.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Carmel

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 10:37:55 AM »
You know thats so right on....I have seen so many people, girls especially that treat their animals like children, even structuring their lives around doggie play groups and vet appointments and "doggie school".  

To be honest to those of us who actually have children, its offensive.  Especially when these same people announce that they are totally prepared for real children since they've "practiced" on their animal....or that before they decide to have children they are going to "practice" on a dog.

I had a client that I worked with weekly and among plentiful other mental issues, this woman felt that her two dogs were not only the most important thing in her world, but that they should be in everyone elses.  She spent every session crying and wailing about her animals and "Did I even know what it meant to have your children be so fragile?" Her babies! Her poor, poor little weak babies!....This woman was in her late 60's and never had children of her own.  Finally one day after she had yelled at me one too many times about how I could never understand about "children", I told her I knew exactly what it felt like to have your child die a horrible untimely death and what it was like to go on without them.....she promptly shut the fuck up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...hands went up and people hit the floor, he wasted two kids that ran for the door....."
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Ethics of Infertility and Engineered Multiples
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 01:20:24 AM »
Octuplet fertility doctor under investigation
By SHAYA TAYEFE MOHAJER, Associated Press Writer – Sat Feb 7, 12:56 pm ET

LOS ANGELES – The spotlight on the mother of octuplets is turning to the fertility doctor who helped her give birth not once but 14 times by implanting Nadya Suleman with fertilized embryos.

The Medical Board of California investigating the doctor — whom it did not name — to see if there was a "violation of the standard of care," board spokeswoman Candis Cohen said Friday.

She did not elaborate.

Suleman, 33, of Whittier, already had six children when she gave birth Jan. 26 to octuplets. The births to an unemployed, divorced single mother prompted angry questions about how she plans to provide for her children.

But the backlash seems to have extended as well to Suleman's doctor.

In a portion of an NBC interview, broadcast Friday, Suleman said she had six embryos implanted for each of her in vitro pregnancies, using the same sperm donor and fertility specialist.

In the case of the octuplets, the procedure resulted in six boys and two girls, including two sets of twins.

"The revelation about one center treating her makes the treatment even harder to understand," said Arthur Caplan, bioethics chairman at the University of Pennsylvania. "They went ahead when she had six kids, knowing that she was a single mom ... and put embryos into her anyway."

In the United States, there is no law dictating the number of embryos that can be placed in a mother's womb. Multiple embroys can be implanted to improve the odds that one will take.

However, there are national guidelines which put the norm at two to three embryos for a woman of Suleman's age, in order to lessen the health risks to the mother and the chances of multiple births.

When asked why so many embryos were implanted, Suleman told NBC: "Those are my children, and that's what was available and I used them. So, I took a risk. It's a gamble. It always is."

She said her life's goal was to be a mother and she had struggled for seven years before finally giving birth to her first child in 2001.

"All I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted in my life," Suleman said in the portion of the interview that aired Friday. "I love my children."

According to state documents, Suleman told a doctor she had three miscarriages. Another doctor disputed that number, saying she had two ectopic pregnancies, a dangerous condition in which a fertilized egg implants somewhere other than in the uterus.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090207/ap_ ... /octuplets
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