Author Topic: More programs shutting down  (Read 6421 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wdtony

  • Posts: 852
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.pfctruth.com
More programs shutting down
« on: December 28, 2008, 02:09:20 AM »
Cash-strapped states cut juvenile justice programs


By JIM DAVENPORT,

Fri Dec 26, 12:39 pm ET


COLUMBIA, S.C. – State budget cuts are forcing some of the nation's youngest criminals out of counseling programs and group homes and into juvenile prisons in what critics contend is a shortsighted move that will eventually lead to more crime and higher costs.

Tennessee, South Carolina, Kentucky and Virginia are among states that have slashed juvenile justice spending — in some cases more than 20 percent — because of slumping tax collections. Youth advocates say they expect the recession will bring more cuts next year in other states, hitting programs that try to rehabilitate children rather than simply locking them up.

"If you raise a child in prison, you're going to raise a convict," said South Carolina Juvenile Justice Director Bill Byars, credited with turning around a system once better known for warehousing children than counseling them and teaching them life skills.

Now, he's been asked to draw up plans to trim an additional 15 percent from a juvenile justice budget already cut $23 million, or 20 percent, since June as part of the state's effort to pare $1 billion from its $7 billion budget.

All five of the system's group homes — which generally house less-violent offenders and give them more individual attention — have been shuttered. Also gone are some intensive youth reform and after-school programs in detention facilities.

The story is similar in other states. Kentucky is nixing a boot camp-style program developed by the National Guard. Virginia is losing behavioral services staff and a facility that prepares children to go home after serving time, along with smaller camps and community programs. Juveniles in those programs will return to traditional correctional facilities.

"It's not like we're going to say, 'OK, let's close a juvenile detention center,' or something like that," said Gordon Hickey, spokesman for Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine. "We have to reduce spending across the state, and the governor looked at suggestions and recommendations from all departments. He certainly realizes that all of these reductions have consequences. The idea is to limit the damage as much as possible."

Among the programs being cut in South Carolina is one that Lex Wilbanks, an 18-year-old arrested four years ago on drug and gun charges, credits with giving him back his future.

Before moving to the program run by Florida-based nonprofit Associated Marine Institute, which provides intensive counseling and wilderness camps in several states, Wilbanks spent four months in a regular juvenile detention center.

"When you did something wrong or you fight or you disrespect staff, they just throw you into lockdown," Wilbanks said. "They just throw you in and make them fight to survive. You're just making them a hardened criminal."

In South Carolina, only 22 percent of offenders who go through the institute's program later break the law, less than half the recidivism rate for juveniles in large state facilities, Byars said.

Through the program, Wilbanks worked his way to the top rank in Army Junior ROTC and earned a GED and college credits. Acting up brought meetings during which counselors "talk you through problems and how you can actually change," he said. "It gives you hope."

Florida is also axing three Associated Marine Institute programs to save $1.7 million, part of an effort to cut 4 percent, or $18 million, from the juvenile justice budget. Advocates are bracing for additional cuts as legislators go back to the Capitol in January to deal with a $2 billion state budget hole.

Florida's juvenile justice system "is going to die the death of a million 4 percent cuts," said Jacqui Colyer, who leads a state juvenile justice advisory group.

The picture isn't as bleak everywhere. In New York, where the population of jailed juveniles has declined as the state moves toward a more community-based approach, Gov. David Patterson has proposed closing six youth facilities and consolidating and downsizing others that aren't being fully used to save $12 million in 2009-10 and $14 million in 2010-11.

A court order limits the cuts California can make and Minnesota, Massachusetts and Nebraska haven't made serious cuts to their systems. Other states, including Connecticut, Oregon, New Hampshire and Utah, are making more modest cuts or delaying planned spending.

Advocates say they worry most about losing programs, such as group homes, that take children out of large facilities to give them individual attention.

Juvenile facilities see an array of major and minor criminals. Gun, drug, sex and assault offenders may share sleeping quarters and classes with teen pranksters sentenced for disrupting schools or destroying property. Terms can last weeks or, in extreme cases, until youths become adults and are transferred to adult prisons.

Generally, less violent offenders make it to the smaller group homes, and experts say social pecking orders are easier to defuse in those settings compared to prisons where gangs try to form and fight for control.

Sheila Bedi, executive director of the Washington-based Justice Policy Institute, said housing children can cost as much as $600 per child daily. But the expenses can be much higher when children emerge hardened from big youth prisons, commit more crimes and end up in adult facilities.

"The truant comes out learning how to steal a car," Bedi said. "You cannot expect a child to come out of that situation with the ability to make better life decisions."



Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081226/ap_ ... le_justice
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Pathway Family Center Truth = http://www.pfctruth.com

Offline FemanonFatal2.0

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 548
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 02:46:53 AM »
Someone mentioned that TB in Jamaica was being shut down and I think I heard that they were, but then did not.

Anyone else hear about this?... have any links or specific information?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
[size=150]When Injustice Becomes Law
...Rebellion Becomes Duty...[/size]




[size=150]WHEN THE RAPTURE COMES
CAN I HAVE YOUR FLAT SCREEN?[/size]

Offline Covergaard

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 484
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.carstenovergaard.dk
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 05:56:38 AM »
TB is up and running, but they have changed a few things.

The reason they were shut for a period was:

1) An investigation from the authorities on Jamaica. Some has held their hand over them for years (for money) but maybe a new sheriff was in town.
2) The lease on the hotel came to an end. It was not clear whether they could get a new one.

So all the kids ended up at Gulf Coast (The old Bethel) in Lucedale.

The buildings was in very poor shape after the Hurricane and because there was no ocean some of parents dropped by and was very angry with the so-called housing standard. They believed in the marketing material based on photos from the 80's. A lot of youth did also escape and the staff was not trained to deal with anything beside drinking beer on the shifts.

An informant has told be that the campus in Lucedale is almost empty. However, I have not been able to have it confirmed.

Back on Jamaica the lease went through and TB was up and running again. However the total number of kids in the WWASP system has dropped so they were in need of new customers. So Tipton/Meadowlark in Kansas are threating their detainees with TB. A couple of other non-WWASP school are doing the same. Cayman Island has made a deal so severely troubled youth are sent to TB, so they can close their eyes and state that troubled youth are not to find in their country.

So TB is up and running.

But our work have made a difference. Now people know what TB stand for and what why people near Hillary Clinton was able to help a family with a plane so they  could fly out and free a boy. From a blog:

Quote
Those involved with freeing Isaac Hersh include, Joshua Ambush, Attorney; Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, executive director of the Torah Outreach Research Center of Houston and who is also one of the foster parents for Isaac twin brother; Rabbi Avraham Wolbe, Monsey, NY, David Pelcovitz, Phd of Yeshiva University, Mr. Zvi Gluck, Hatzalah, New York, NY; Isaac Klein, Far Rockaway NY and Senator Hillary Clinton.

Unfortunately a lot of the youth in the system doesn't have as powerful friends but the tides have turned from 1990's where even celebs used the BM industry  and in fact was promoting them. (Ryan O'Neal and wife used it for Redmond, The parents of Aaron and Nick Carter used it for their sister Leslie)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline wdtony

  • Posts: 852
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.pfctruth.com
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2008, 05:27:24 AM »
Good info,

Thanks Covergaard!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Pathway Family Center Truth = http://www.pfctruth.com

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2008, 06:25:25 PM »
The point of the article in the OP is that in many states, public sector gulags are shutting down, and kids in trouble with the law are being sent to juvie and/or adult-level lockups instead. The juvenile justice budget is experiencing large cuts.

It was precisely the desire to keep juveniles out of the prison system that fed into the buildup of these programs in the first place. As South Carolina Juvenile Justice Director Bill Byars says, "If you raise a child in prison, you're going to raise a convict." The public sector gulags were seen as a kinder, more rehabilitative alternative.

Note that this decrease in public sector programs will probably not affect the "parent-choice" programs in the immediately foreseeable future, namely, the types of programs that are featured on Lon Woodbury's Struggling Teens site. It may even bolster their numbers, at least initially.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 10:38:28 AM »
Lon Woodbury is an idiot.

"Parent-choice" (I can't even type that in quotes without feeling my gorge rise) hellholes are, by and large, reliant on the government to exist. Three reasons come into play:

1. Often the exact same hellholes paid for by parents are also recipients of court-ordered victims. Knock out those ties, and revenues go down and shutdowns go up.

2. In places where 1's not the case, the same people who run one often run the other.

3. (The big one) The key reason investigative agencies refuse to do their job is because of conflicts of interest and good-old-boy-networkism. How can you shut down a hellhole that a judge referred some kid to just last week? Being able to say "well, we do that over in this other place"- even if the "we" is in another state- discourages any kind of serious investigation.

Let's say the government abandoned child torture altogether. Would the private hellholes get a surge in business? Maybe.

But then what do we have? A handful of societally isolated hellholes, vulnerable to lawsuit and even more vulnerable to investigators, under the umbrella of an organization (the National Association for Torture, Sadism, and Anal Pain, aka NATSAP) that the government does not take seriously. Ideally we get to the situation where abuse in "parent-choice"  ::puke:: shitfarms is treated exactly as it would be if the parents were at home doing it. Similarly, without government backing at any level, it becomes a lot easier for a variant of Miller's bill to march through and declare this whole thing toast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 12:02:55 PM »
Cut me some slack if I am wrong about this, but I wasn't under the impression that tremendous numbers of court-ordered kids are currently enrolled in these "parent-choice" hellholes. An exception might be where a kid gets into trouble with the law for a minor infraction and has to go somewhere or to juvie, and a parent negotiates a private duck farm as an alternative to the government run institutions. And well they might, given the current state of affairs at the latter.

Given the crappy and functionally non-existent oversight going on at the public sector gulags, do you honestly think the government is going to invest extra manpower to oversee what's going on in the private sector? The "parent-choice" alternatives are seen as country clubs by penal system diehards.

Sure, "conflicts of interest and good-old-boy-networkism" play into it, but I think the old economic bottom line plays into it a lot more than you think.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »
I'm sure TSW can fill you in on more details, but Eckerds, AFAIK, had a substantial mix of both court ordered and not. And this was a privately-run institution.

Peninsula Village is another example, and I'm sure Zen and act.da and everyone else there can fill you in on that.

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=26248

And there's even been tales of school systems getting into the act because they think these hellholes have something to do with actual public education.

There's conflicts of interest from Idaho to Florida. It's not a time and money thing for the investigations, Ursus. Can you imagine if police claimed not to have the time or money to investigate, say... drug possession? Or speeding? Or minor-in-possession? Or people's private homes for child abuse? "We can't", nine times out of ten, means "we won't".

There is, of course, a presumable financial reason for abandoning juvenile jails for private contractors that claim to charge less and rehabilitate, but that's being abandoned in part because they don't actually do either, and in part because various officials are starting to think that they can get in trouble if they send kids to be killed (after what happened in Florida, and the Miller investigations).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: More programs shutting down
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2009, 03:23:52 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
I'm sure TSW can fill you in on more details, but Eckerds, AFAIK, had a substantial mix of both court ordered and not. And this was a privately-run institution.
Sorry, but Eckerds has been a public sector gulag for over forty years. They just recently privatized three of their currently 21 facilities, but the other 18 or so are still public.

    "Eckerd Youth Alternatives (EYA) has helped more than 70,000 youth in
public programs since they were founded by Jack and Ruth Eckerd in 1968."[/list]

—————————————————

Quote from: "Guest"
Peninsula Village is another example, and I'm sure Zen and act.da and everyone else there can fill you in on that.

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=26248
Residential treatment centers are precisely where you do tend to get more court-ordered kids, due to that unique combination of lockup-capabilities plus alleged psychiatric services. Presumably the degree and/or quality of psychiatric services rendered are deemed to be greater than that available at a cheaper price. These cases are then contracted out to places like Peninsula Village. How much of PV's income is generated by such contract jobs? That I do not know.

However, my guess is that you do not get that many court-ordered cases like this at less physically restrictive programs, e.g., many of the Aspen programs, CEDU-ite, Hyde, etc...i.e., places that teach you to create the fences yourself, in your own mind. Basically most of the non-RTC programs. Maybe I'm wrong.

—————————————————

Quote from: "Guest"
There's conflicts of interest from Idaho to Florida. It's not a time and money thing for the investigations, Ursus.
I never said it was a "time and money thing," exclusively. I said:

    Sure, "conflicts of interest and good-old-boy-networkism" play into it, but I think the old economic bottom line plays into it a lot more than you think.[/list]

    It would appear that there is a semantic quibble here, and I'm not sure that this is really worth pursuing, but I do think downplaying economic factors during a recession is not a very realistic stance to take.

    Quote from: "Guest"
    Can you imagine if police claimed not to have the time or money to investigate, say... drug possession? Or speeding? Or minor-in-possession? Or people's private homes for child abuse?
    Yup, actually I can. Happens all the time. They make judgment calls as to which investigations to pursue, or pursue with greater vigor. They just won't call it that.

    —————————————————

    Quote from: "Guest"
    There is, of course, a presumable financial reason for abandoning juvenile jails for private contractors that claim to charge less and rehabilitate, but that's being abandoned in part because they don't actually do either, and in part because various officials are starting to think that they can get in trouble if they send kids to be killed (after what happened in Florida, and the Miller investigations).

    I'm not sure what you mean by this in the context of the OP:
    Quote
    COLUMBIA, S.C. – State budget cuts are forcing some of the nation's youngest criminals out of counseling programs and group homes and into juvenile prisons in what critics contend is a shortsighted move that will eventually lead to more crime and higher costs.

    Tennessee, South Carolina, Kentucky and Virginia are among states that have slashed juvenile justice spending — in some cases more than 20 percent — because of slumping tax collections. Youth advocates say they expect the recession will bring more cuts next year in other states, hitting programs that try to rehabilitate children rather than simply locking them up...
    I'm afraid I don't see a decrease in contracting out "difficult jobs" happening any time soon. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

    Offline Anonymous

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 164653
    • Karma: +3/-4
      • View Profile
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2009, 05:07:59 PM »
    I think what we're actually quibbling over is what public and private mean. When most people say "privatized", they mean that the money is going to some private organization. (Compare the use of "Private prisons" for the recent contracts-out in that department.) Eckerds may have been in the public sector, but it wasn't directly run by the state, was it?

    Also, take "budget cuts caused" with a grain of salt. The real question is "Why was the budget cut?" It's not like they didn't think about the budget before they slashed it (well, one hopes they didn't). Recessions are a great time to kill off stuff you don't want around anymore, and "budget cuts" is a convenient scapegoat when the child torturers who are about to lose their jobs come to legislators asking why the flow of kids has stopped.

    Quote from: "the article"
    Youth advocates say they expect the recession will bring more cuts next year in other states, hitting programs that try to rehabilitate children rather than simply locking them up...

    Quote from: "Ursus"
    I'm afraid I don't see a decrease in contracting out "difficult jobs" happening any time soon.

    Huh? You just quoted it. When the article says "programs that try to rehabilitate children", you can pretty much bet your bottom dollar that they mean shitpits. "Simply locking them up" refers to the actual juvenile justice system. And yes, I know the latter is FUBAR.

    And from the other side of the government equation: Remember who Mitt Romney's campaign finance managers were?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline Ursus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 8989
    • Karma: +3/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #10 on: January 01, 2009, 06:14:20 PM »
    Quote from: "Guest"
    I think what we're actually quibbling over is what public and private mean. When most people say "privatized", they mean that the money is going to some private organization. (Compare the use of "Private prisons" for the recent contracts-out in that department.) Eckerds may have been in the public sector, but it wasn't directly run by the state, was it?

    Public sector programs have different oversight and accountability issues. The state gets to read over your books. Extreme policy changes have to be okayed, etc. etc. I'm sure that the degree to which this occurs varies from state to state.

    A good rule of thumb is whether Lon will have anything to do with it. He's such a "parent-choice" elitist that anything that stinks too much of government meddling is just not capitalistic enough for him.  :D

    The Welfare Reform Act has a great deal to do with a number of formerly public companies going private, e.g., Abraxas (TC rehab, possibly linked to Gateway), even though functionally, very little changed. Abraxas negotiated a buy-out of itself by a private prison contractor; most key personnel kept their jobs.

    —————————————————

    Quote from: "Guest"
    Quote from: "the article"
    Youth advocates say they expect the recession will bring more cuts next year in other states, hitting programs that try to rehabilitate children rather than simply locking them up...

    Quote from: "Ursus"
    I'm afraid I don't see a decrease in contracting out "difficult jobs" happening any time soon.

    Huh? You just quoted it. When the article says "programs that try to rehabilitate children", you can pretty much bet your bottom dollar that they mean shitpits. "Simply locking them up" refers to the actual juvenile justice system. And yes, I know the latter is FUBAR.

    When the article refers to budget cuts "hitting programs," they are talking about government-run programs that will be discontinued.

    When I refer to the government "contracting out 'difficult jobs'," I refer to cases in which no juvie or community-based program is deemed appropriate (in part because of the discontinued programs), and the kid gets shipped to a privately-owned RTC like Peninsula Village, i.e., a contract job.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

    Offline Che Gookin

    • Global Moderator
    • Newbie
    • *****
    • Posts: 4241
    • Karma: +11/-3
      • View Profile
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #11 on: January 02, 2009, 07:24:38 AM »
    Contract facilities are interchangable with juvies
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Guest"
    I think what we're actually quibbling over is what public and private mean. When most people say "privatized", they mean that the money is going to some private organization. (Compare the use of "Private prisons" for the recent contracts-out in that department.) Eckerds may have been in the public sector, but it wasn't directly run by the state, was it?

    Public sector programs have different oversight and accountability issues. The state gets to read over your books. Extreme policy changes have to be okayed, etc. etc. I'm sure that the degree to which this occurs varies from state to state.

    A good rule of thumb is whether Lon will have anything to do with it. He's such a "parent-choice" elitist that anything that stinks too much of government meddling is just not capitalistic enough for him.  :D

    The Welfare Reform Act has a great deal to do with a number of formerly public companies going private, e.g., Abraxas (TC rehab, possibly linked to Gateway), even though functionally, very little changed. Abraxas negotiated a buy-out of itself by a private prison contractor; most key personnel kept their jobs.

    —————————————————

    Quote from: "Guest"
    Quote from: "the article"
    Youth advocates say they expect the recession will bring more cuts next year in other states, hitting programs that try to rehabilitate children rather than simply locking them up...

    Quote from: "Ursus"
    I'm afraid I don't see a decrease in contracting out "difficult jobs" happening any time soon.

    Huh? You just quoted it. When the article says "programs that try to rehabilitate children", you can pretty much bet your bottom dollar that they mean shitpits. "Simply locking them up" refers to the actual juvenile justice system. And yes, I know the latter is FUBAR.

    When the article refers to budget cuts "hitting programs," they are talking about government-run programs that will be discontinued.

    When I refer to the government "contracting out 'difficult jobs'," I refer to cases in which no juvie or community-based program is deemed appropriate (in part because of the discontinued programs), and the kid gets shipped to a privately-owned RTC like Peninsula Village, i.e., a contract job.


    I'm looking through this mess of quotes and I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

    1) Eckerds, in Flordia, is a Private company that holds a state funded contract. A year or so ago it did start converting some of its state funded contract facilities to Pay for Pain facilities. Is the oversight any better in the state funded situation versus what I experience in Three Springs in Alabama that was a Pay for Pain facility?

    Yes and no..

    Bearing in mind that oversight tends to mean different things to different people. Oversight to state auditors tends to mean they want to know that the paperwork is caught up, the dollars are accounted for, and the regulations are being followed. To ensure this they hold yearly audits that are a week long nightmare. The other 51 weeks of the year the state tends to represent this distant motherland that still says hello every time a ship pulls into port and kicks off a new load of convicts.

    Unless a rebellion breaks out that gains bad publicity the state prefers that they call you and that you don't call them.

    As for policy changes?

    Heh.. window dressing my friends. Remember, the state is a patriarch that believes children should only be seen and not heard. They don't really want to be arsed in dealing with these kids so they tend to pass what laws they think will shut everyone up so they can go back to gambling and whoring on their days off. If the policies actually meant something then these places wouldn't be an serious concern for anyone who cares about the welfare and safety of kids.  

    I'll be honest when I say I'm surprised at some of these cuts. Dollar for dollar it is cheaper to keep a kid in a contracting program than it is in a state run and staffed facility. I figured the states would start cutting their own juvies first and saved on costs by contracting. My figures are out of date and based on a conversation I had with a high level member of Eckerds Youth Alternatives many years ago, but if you adjust for inflation and all that the figures for 2000 were about 33,000 a year for a kid in Eckerds and about 45,000 a year for a kid in juvie.

    12,000 a year is a decent chunk of change when you are dealing with hundreds or thousands of kids.

    The rest of the hemming and hawing on this thread is a bit difficult to follow. Not sure what you guys are trying to get at so I'll take my leave and go back to sleep.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline wdtony

    • Posts: 852
    • Karma: +1/-0
      • View Profile
      • http://www.pfctruth.com
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #12 on: January 03, 2009, 10:59:39 PM »
    What category would these places fall under? And does it really matter if it is a public or private torturous hell-camp?


    TEXAS Drug Treatment jail alternative

     Texas drug treatment options can replace jail time for first time offenders. Most Drug rehabilitation centers will help you or someone that you love seek the help the person needs instead of going to jail. Call us to discuss this option for treatment in place of unnecessary jail time. The state of Texas understands the need for drug rehabilitation and will work with select treatment facilities in and outside of Texas...................................

    Source: http://www.addictionnomore.com/texas%20 ... 20alt.html
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    Pathway Family Center Truth = http://www.pfctruth.com

    Offline hurrikayne

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 373
    • Karma: +0/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 11:53:31 PM »
    IMHO - abuse is abuse, regardless of whether it is paid for by our tax dollars, or by personal financing.  As for category...I don't know, I think I would lean more toward 'public' since the detainee would have gone to jail on the taxpayer's dime in the first place.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    "Motivation is everything. You can do the work of two people, but you can\'t be two people. Instead, you have to inspire the next guy down the line and get him to inspire his people. " - Lee Iacocca

    Offline wdtony

    • Posts: 852
    • Karma: +1/-0
      • View Profile
      • http://www.pfctruth.com
    Re: More programs shutting down
    « Reply #14 on: January 04, 2009, 12:36:34 AM »
    Having been placed in a program and also spent a few times in jail when I was younger, I can say that Jail would be my pick every time. Jail is sooooooo much better than the damn torture center programs. When I went to jail at age 18, I was so surprised at how good it was compared to the program. Now I don't want to go to jail, but it sure is a big step up from a program.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    Pathway Family Center Truth = http://www.pfctruth.com