Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run  (Read 142192 times)

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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #225 on: March 10, 2009, 10:37:35 PM »
Tell us something please, Honesty: you mentioned that you are not in full agreement with DAYTOP in many areas of it's policies and practices; would you mind explaining to us what some of your points of contention with that organization are?

My thoughts:

There has been no hint that DAYTOP actually needs such a yes-man as Honesty as their spokesperson, but, by all appearances, as far as Honesty is concerned that doesn't matter. He/she does not want to wait for another actual incidence of persecution to occur, he/she wants to prevent further threats to his/her security from arising.

Honesty reminds me of that kid Robert in The Wave, who volunteers to be Mr. Ross' bodyguard. Robert starts to dress like Mr. Ross, talk like Mr. Ross, follow Mr. Ross around, etc.

The Monsignor and DAYTOP have made Honesty feel good about him/herself, probably for the first time in his/her life, and Honesty wants to do everything he/she can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose DAYTOP and hurt the credibility of the man and group that have given this person their  new-found improved self-image.

Honesty's is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual, and are therefore worthy of what social psychologists would call "moral exclusion."

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, to keep people sober, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

Honesty's is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals.

Honesty (and all of the DAYTOPians for that matter) needs to learn that his/her importance and worth as a person does not depend on any role or function that he/she fills in a group-his/her value (and that of all people) rests in the fact that he/she is a human being. One is not more valuable because one possesses a high IQ, has forsaken all to follow Jesus, has many possessions, lives in a three-story mansion, has been sober for twenty years, has a fifth-grade education or a PhD.

After all, it is DAYTOP that makes Honesty feel so good about him/herself-so self-confident and worthwhile, probably for the first time in his/her life. He/she may believe that he/she has no options outside of the group, and that is not a happy prospect for him/her.

So rather than receive the message, he/she attacks the messenger through use of the (big words) ad hominem attack. After a certain point it seems that Honesty is unable to refute the logical, objective arguments put to him/her and so he does what people often do in such a situation: he/she attacks DAYTOP's critics personally. If one party to a dispute can discredit the other party in some way, then it is easier to to discredit that person's arguments.

This is what trolls like Honesty engage in time after time, argument for the sake of argument, and it is quite a childish and tiresome tactic.

There is a potential danger with such public testimonials, such as Honesty's, Magificent's, or or any others. If the testimony is to a person or a human organization (as in this case since, after all, DAYTOP is a human organization which is led by humans and not by God Himself) there is the possibility that the person or organization may change in time from good to bad. For example, teaching discipline to students or to one's own children is essentially good, and getting them to articulate answers to spoken questions may facilitate learning. But discipline may mutate into abuse, if, for example, the teacher or parent or (whoever the leader may be) instead of hitting his desk with the dowel, so to speak, hits a student with a dowel or a whip, makes them sit in a chari for hours at a time or makes them wear a pacifier. At this point, since Honesty and the rest have made public statements praising DAYTOP (just as the character of Robert in the short film made a public statement praising The Wave) it will be much harder for him to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and Honesty/Magnificent/whoever will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the student/DAYTOP resident who was humiliated or otherwise mistreated.

This is very much like what happens with the woman who is physically abused by her husband. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #226 on: March 10, 2009, 11:02:03 PM »
I don't know about the program that you're talking about and I'm sure that it was terrible but let it go.  How long ago did you say it was?  It seems that all you want to do is go on and on about how bad the place was.  Don't you think it's time to move on or are you one of those who wants to wallow?  Dude you have serious problems.  And making fun of spelling?  Is that where you go when someone gets to you and you don't know where else to go?  You consider yourself an intellect and when you do something like make fun of spelling I don't see an intellect I see a child trying to be meaner then the other kid.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #227 on: March 10, 2009, 11:15:50 PM »
Careful study of the Monsignor's words in You Can't Do It Alone, will reveal a lot about the DAYTOP mentality; it's something to the effect of (and I had to give the copy I read back to the library therefore I do not have one with me from which to make citations), "allegiance to one another," support(ing) one another," work(ing) together," "obey(ing) the rules," and "supporting the DAYTOP family."  

The Monsignor writes in a manner very much like Mr. Ross' speech to his class, from The Third Wave)...

"Now, through hard work and allegiance to one another you will learn faster and accomplish more. But only if you support one another, and only if you work together and obey the rules you can ensure the success of The Wave."

He does not quite write, "We must support one another regardless of what any of us does," but that could easily be implied from what he does write. I see this theme over and over again in the Monsignor's writings.

Honesty's still trying to do the goose-step just right. Poor Honesty.

"DAYTOP, DAYTOP uber alles..."

In cultic groups like DAYTOP it is essential to live in "unity" with the other members, and especially with the leader(s).

In practice, however, the "unity" that is promoted in cultic groups such as DAYTOP is really "uniformity." Members must believe alike, think alike, talk alike, (sound familiar, Honesty?) and often even look alike. Divergences from even minor points of doctrine and practice is usually not allowed. When it is allowed, those who think differently are not permitted to express their differences publicly. If they do, there are consequences to pay. In DAYTOP, aren't these consequences called "Haircuts" or "encounter groups?"

Cultic and other overly authoritarian groups (again, DAYTOP is a typical example of this) do not recognize that there can be unity without uniformity.

As human beings we (or at least, most of us) need to be in relationship to other people. We need others as friends, confidants, lovers, etc. to offer us affirmation, solace, correction, fellowship, etc.

In normal, healthy relationships, however, we also need time and space for ourselves occasionally so we can obtain rest and spend time in reflection. We will on occasion voluntarily give up our personal agenda on occasion to meet an emergency, whether it concerns our family, out community, or our nation. But once the emergency has passed we go back to our normal lives again.

In abusive group like DAYTOP this personal agenda is seldom if ever granted; the member is almost always, if not always, giving up his own right to privacy and the pursuit of his own goals in order to pursue the goals of the group and to submit to the agenda of his authority.

Finally, the process of group building, when it becomes abusive, creates a system that is mutually addictive to both founder(s) and followers. The followers need the founder/leader/Monsignor to make them feel that they are realizing the proffered goal; the founder/leader/Monsignor needs his followers (some call them the leader's "narcissistic supply") to make him feel successful, powerful, and truly enlightened.

Some more thoughts about The Wave, relating more directly to the theme of nurturing vs. coercion:

At one point, speaking about his class's renewed order, which is coming about as a result of the new "game" that they are playing, Mr. Ross states: "It's as if they wanted to be disciplined."

This is a profound statement, in my opinion.

I believe that Mr. Ross is in fact correct, that most teenagers, and most hard-core addicts in treatment, want at least some discipline. They may not always be consciously aware that they want it, and they certainly won't tell their parents or counselors that they want discipline, but without it they often feel insecure, lacking direction.

It is a truism that to be in one's teens and early twenties is a most difficult period of life; young people, such as the young people DAYTOP seems to target, are in a major transition period of life from childhood to adulthood. They are beginning to take on or be given greater responsibility over their own lives, making decisions for themselves that some authority-parents, teachers, etc.-formerly made for them. This can be either a heady experience or an unsettling one, often both at the same time. If some group like DAYTOP comes along and offers guidance, even in the form of discipline,this can be experienced as relief from the pressure of decision-making.

Later on in the film, Mr. Ross states, "It's amazing how much they like you when you make decisions for them."

This is IMO another profound statement, and it is a corollary of the first statement ("It's as if they wanted to be disciplined.") Adolescence and early adulthood is a notoriously difficult period of life. It is a transition from childhood to adulthood, with young people wanting and being able to make more decisions for themselves. Decisions that an authority (teacher, parent, etc.) formerly made for them they are now having to make for themselves. And they are having to think about their futures: what career should they pursue? What do they want to look for in a potential mate? What do they believe about the meaning of life? This can be a bit unsettling, even scary, for a lot of young people. If some group like DAYTOP comes along and offers "assistance" in the form of quick and easy "answers" to these questions, or even to make some or most of those decisions for them, then this can be experienced as a major relief.

I believe that this is how and why DAYTOP generally only succeeds in enticing people to join the the group as staff, when the potential recruits are barely adults, whether chronologically or emotionally speaking.

I pray that the DAYTOPians will read and thoughtfully consider that which I have written.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #228 on: March 10, 2009, 11:25:41 PM »
I wonder how someone who “does not know of the program being talked about” just wandered in. I’m also amused that someone who admits ignorance of the heart of the matter of the topic at hand would be moved to put their two cents in. Whoever you are, you should conserve your resources until you have something of value to contribute...perhaps better spent on something you do know about.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #229 on: March 10, 2009, 11:30:11 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
I don't know about the program that you're talking about and I'm sure that it was terrible but let it go.  How long ago did you say it was?  It seems that all you want to do is go on and on about how bad the place was.  Don't you think it's time to move on or are you one of those who wants to wallow?  Dude you have serious problems.  And making fun of spelling?  Is that where you go when someone gets to you and you don't know where else to go?  You consider yourself an intellect and when you do something like make fun of spelling I don't see an intellect I see a child trying to be meaner then the other kid.

The program has been running to my detriment (and I have not been consciously aware of this fact) for the better part of 15 years.  

These are things that I have not thought about or written of in years and years.  

The catharsis that I find on this board is itself a part of my letting go process, a part of my therapy.   I am purging myself of the DAYTOP mentality through this board.  

And I don't need this fool Honesty getting in the way of my healing.

In writing what I have written, I have had to withstand a barrage of attacks from these people, attacks on my character and state of mind.  

They call me a liar, a failure, a psych patient.  

Frankly, yes, I'd have more respect for their point of view if what they wrote was just a little more cogent and articulate, or if they could at least spell or put together a proper sentence.  As it is, I'm dealing with some guy who writes on a third grade level and brings nothing to the table other than, "what a crock of shit.  It's your fault that you're such a failure."

But one thing they won't do, they won't even answer questions put to them or give any reasoned, thoughtful replies at all.  They dismiss all I've put out here as "complete fabrication."

Complete fabrication nothing.  I'll take you right to Mike Gomez's grave if you like.

They are rude, hostile, and simplistic in their thinking.  All they do is call me a liar and attack my character, and need to take a seat back at the kids' table where they belong.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #230 on: March 10, 2009, 11:37:49 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
I wonder how someone who “does not know of the program being talked about” just wandered in. I’m also amused that someone who admits ignorance of the heart of the matter of the topic at hand would be moved to put their two cents in. Whoever you are, you should conserve your resources until you have something of value to contribute...perhaps better spent on something you do know about.

Thanks for having my back, Inculcated.  I'd love it if you wrote to me, but respect you and I respect the fact that you may choose not to do so.
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #231 on: March 10, 2009, 11:41:55 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
They are rude, hostile, and simplistic in their thinking.  All they do is call me a liar and attack my character, and need to take a seat back at the kids' table where they belong.

Yes, but at the same time it's amusing.  I almost feel sorry for how they embarrass themselves sometimes by the way they act.  I recently ended up on Pathway Family Center's shitlist, incdedentally:

http://www.pathwaytruth.org/critics.html

It's pretty funny, actually.  Reminds me of Scientology's "religious freedom watch"
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #232 on: March 10, 2009, 11:49:04 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "SEKTO"
They are rude, hostile, and simplistic in their thinking.  All they do is call me a liar and attack my character, and need to take a seat back at the kids' table where they belong.

Yes, but at the same time it's amusing.  I almost feel sorry for how they embarrass themselves sometimes by the way they act.  I recently ended up on Pathway Family Center's shitlist, incdedentally:

http://www.pathwaytruth.org/critics.html

It's pretty funny, actually.  Reminds me of Scientology's "religious freedom watch"

I hear ya, psy.  

These people do more to undermine DAYTOP's credibility than I could ever hope to do by myself, you know?

They are their own worst enemies.  I love it how they do half the work for me.  They make DAYTOP look bad better than anybody else ever could.

Like I said before, these people are actually an embarrassment to DAYTOP.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #233 on: March 10, 2009, 11:54:12 PM »
You people are nuts.  It's funny to read hwo trying to be cool in your response but you're nut jobs.  It's fun to blog something and then one of you come back with some stupit crap.  I could keep you going forever and you all would follow.  Talk about cults what do you think you all have become.  If people don't agree with you you attack, if they agree you kiss their asses.  You're all a joke.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #234 on: March 11, 2009, 12:03:08 AM »
Blah blah blah slander blah blah blah you're full of hate hate blah blah blah you're sick blah blah blah you're a failure blah blah blah you're crazy blah blah blah.

I've withstood more nonsense than that in my lifetime, man.  Your little insults aren't shit to me.  I've heard tougher words in the barracks after a bad night of drinking than I've EVER read here.

I was in the Army and spent 11 months in Iraq (OIF3).  

I went through BCT at Ft. Benning, and trained with the best infantrymen in the world.  I was part of 3ID, the Rock of the Marne, hooah.  I've been in combat and seen Iraqis all shot to bits, watched IEDs blow the hell out of armored vehicles and crazy shit like that.

So don't you know that I've heard it all before, been insulted by some of the best?  Do you think maybe I've been a little desensitized to abuse and suffering, mine and that on the part of others?   Do you think that maybe I'm trying to recover from some of these things?  Do you think maybe my nerves are kinda shot?

You'll have to try harder than that.  It does not hurt my feelings, junior.  Do you know who you're writing to?

You DAYTOPians all take such pains to try and discredit me...but, that would mean that I am often "on target", so to speak, IMO.   ::unhappy::
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #235 on: March 11, 2009, 12:29:13 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
You people are nuts.  It's funny to read hwo trying to be cool in your response but you're nut jobs.  It's fun to blog something and then one of you come back with some stupit crap.  I could keep you going forever and you all would follow.  Talk about cults what do you think you all have become.  If people don't agree with you you attack, if they agree you kiss their asses.  You're all a joke.
To Guest (the one with the allergy to nuts)
Your post is reminiscent of the previously unnamed contribution (probably for the self proclaimed ignorance) I’m going to call you Big Spender… B.S. for short. You don’t to spell out your need for negative attention or your paucity of knowledge. That’s all really obvious.  It’s just that you don’t understand or even care to understand the purpose of this forum that troubles you.
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #236 on: March 11, 2009, 02:20:07 PM »
I’m trying to metabolize the food for thought to be had here, but the intrusions turn my stomach.
I’m trying to understand how the reverberations of my immersion within DAYTOP have played out in to my present life. The impact of my experience at DAYTOP calls to mind in me something my psychologist calls “betrayal trauma”. Granted, there are other non-DAYTOP influences that have contributed to the quandary I find myself in, while trying to deal with my experiences. (“Lightening” has stricken me more than I care to share, and taken the life of a girl I loved very much.)
Trust, has been in my thoughts as I examine the fact that it’s nearly impossible for me to feel it. Most of the time, I vacillate between suspended disbelief and a sense of being unreachable. This inhibits my attempts to deal with treatment abuse related issues in therapy. Of course other issues are impeded by my distrust. Knowing this hasn’t helped. Priming, Habituation, Basic Associative learning… These have instilled in me at an early age the only defenses I can conjure (That don’t include disappearing into the nearest patterned object).
Meanwhile, I smile.
How have others who have been harmed by those in the “helping professions”…deal?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #237 on: March 12, 2009, 05:06:14 PM »
You guys are a joy but I'm disappointed you didn't pick up on my spelling.  And oh yeah I would say that I'm the one on target Septic boy.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #238 on: March 12, 2009, 06:15:14 PM »
Quote from: "Inculcated"
How have others who have been harmed by those in the "helping professions"…deal?

That's a tough one. Are you talking about your Daytop experience, or your attempts to recover from your Daytop experience?

Many therapists are really quite ill-equipped to deal with this sort of thing, especially when the event was some time ago. Not only is there damage due to the length of time the wounds have festered, there may also be additional damage accrued from self-destructive choices made as a result of the original wound. And some -- even well-meaning -- therapists can add yet more damage to that brew as a result of their ignorance.
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Offline Inculcated

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #239 on: March 12, 2009, 10:05:50 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Inculcated"
How have others who have been harmed by those in the "helping professions"…deal?

-- even well-meaning -- therapists can add yet more damage to that brew as a result of their ignorance.

     DAYTOP was one of my damaged in treatment experiences.  I assimilated so quickly in to DAYTOP’s program due to my age and the situation I was coming out of. I was desperate for something that made sense and thought for a while that I had found it. That is until being instructed to conspire with silence about the circumstances that sent me to residential. I actually felt more betrayed by DAYTOP counselors (that I had trusted) for that, than toward the perv’.  
   Of course there is a cumulative effect of other experiences (preceding DAYTOP and following). I’m opting to not elaborate in detail. I have shared these (to the extent that I am able) in current therapy.  I believe the ‘ologist means well. (My ‘iatrist just writes scripts). I am so conflicted about the trust that’s required for treatment to be effective.
So, with treatment abuse induced rage and lack of trust, are some people untreatable?
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“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free”  Nikos Kazantzakis