DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run

[psy]

it appears you have not gotten the help you need.

Define "help you need", or for that matter, why don't you define "recovery"?  This is not a stupid request.  Answer the question and you'll see where i'm going.

Are you kidding me.  You can stop your little game of how do you define this or that or whatever.  Here are the facts Sekto or whatever is full of it.  He has told so many lies it's comical.  True, there probably were people who abused power at times but this guy is amazing.  Are you his lawyer or is he able to take care of himself now that he's all grown up.  Man I came on here because i was just told about this and wanted to check it out and I have to wonder if many of you are sitting at computers in some pysch ward playing.  And, if people really want to have a discussion do more then making fun of a tpyo.

Well.  I was getting at a point but the question was never answered.  To a certain extent I asked the question to cause the person who asked it to think about whether their definition of recovery was that of the world at large, or whether it had it's own definition specific to daytop/Synanon derived programs.

I asked the question about "help you need" because it illustrates a point that anybody who dares to criticize the program is automatically labeled as in need of "help".  It's a fairly flexible term.

[psy]

Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?

Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.

To end this one, another fabrication.  Maybe SETKO heard some stories from those who were graduates because they use to tell stories about the old days but pacifiers and all of that other crap never happened.  His fantasy again.  I'm not attempting to belittle his experience apparently it was not good but he needs to be truthful.  Share your pain without telling lies I'm sure there's are many things that he can share that are true that can express his pain but this is sick.

Were you there?  How did you know it did not happen?  There have been other documented instances of this exact sort of thing happening at various programs so it's not entierly unheard of or even out of the ordinary.

[psy]

I never thought that I'd be in the position of defending DAYTOP because, as I have said there were some issue there that I had a problem with, but this guy SEKTO is not telling the truth and even when he tells the truth is with major spin.  I don't have an issue with people sharing their feelings and what issues they may have had with any program but I know about this program and he's feeding you all a lot of stories that I'm sure he believes but just aren't true.  Honesty knows what he's talking about and SEKTO is spun his own memories which he believe to be true.

In my experience on this forum, i've found a few interesting things. Most people agree on what factually did or did not happen, though not all people agree on the interpretations of those events.  One person might see a particular event as abusive...  another person might see it as "therapy" or somehow a part of recovery.  You might disagree with him on his opinions, but as far as the facts of his story go, unless you were there at the exact same time he was with the same people, you might not know what you're talking about.  Programs do get "better" or "worse" over time and tend to vary between locations and staff changes.

[Ursus]

Sorry to butt in on your run of posts here, Magnificent, but it seems to me that SEKTO is relating his personal experiences at Daytop and his interpretation of the net effect that Daytop has had on him, and that salient fact is well communicated by the nature and tenor of his posts.

With all due respect, your posts, on the other hand, would appear to be attacking the validity and veracity of his experiences. I dunno...were you standing there by his side during each and every day of his time there? Do you have some magical mind-bonding ability by which you were able to get inside of his head and see exactly how events affected him?

I myself would be much more interested in hearing of your personal experiences and how and why you feel that Daytop, or TCs in general, have their place in dealing with various problems and societal issues.

People are affected by events and interactions with others differently. Somewhere early on in this thread, SEKTO did state that he was quite introverted. I would very much like to hear your opinion of how the TC modality affects introverts vs. extroverts, given the very nature of "groups" per se, and the inherent "discomfort" (if not terror) they elicit in some folks.

[Ursus]

Lols. Looks like I came in on a run of 'psy' posts after a run of 'Magnificent' posts! Shows you how slow I type!

—•?|•?•0•?•|?•—

Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?

Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.

To end this one, another fabrication.  Maybe SETKO heard some stories from those who were graduates because they use to tell stories about the old days but pacifiers and all of that other crap never happened.  His fantasy again.  I'm not attempting to belittle his experience apparently it was not good but he needs to be truthful.  Share your pain without telling lies I'm sure there's are many things that he can share that are true that can express his pain but this is sick.

Were you there?  How did you know it did not happen?  There have been other documented instances of this exact sort of thing happening at various programs so it's not entierly unheard of or even out of the ordinary.

We even had some of that stuff at Hyde School, although I think Elan (which evolved out of Daytop, or so I understand) is the most famous for that kind of "behavior modification."

[Magnificent]

Sorry to butt in on your run of posts here, Magnificent, but it seems to me that SEKTO is relating his personal experiences at Daytop and his interpretation of the net effect that Daytop has had on him, and that salient fact is well communicated by the nature and tenor of his posts.

With all due respect, your posts, on the other hand, would appear to be attacking the validity and veracity of his experiences. I dunno...were you standing there by his side during each and every day of his time there? Do you have some magical mind-bonding ability by which you were able to get inside of his head and see exactly how events affected him?

I myself would be much more interested in hearing of your personal experiences and how and why you feel that Daytop, or TCs in general, have their place in dealing with various problems and societal issues.

People are affected by events and interactions with others differently. Somewhere early on in this thread, SEKTO did state that he was quite introverted. I would very much like to hear your opinion of how the TC modality affects introverts vs. extroverts, given the very nature of "groups" per se, and the inherent "discomfort" (if not terror) they elicit in some folks.

I will answer your question and psy at the same time.  I will not share my experience because that isn't my point in writing here.  I was at Daytop the entire time that Setko is speaking of so this is how I would know what went on.  I am not saying that he did not have bad experiences or that there weren't some that took their power a bit far.  I'm not sure that Leroy didn't smoke with the kids, we never heard of it and we pretty much heard most of what was going on.  I personally spent a lot of time with Leroy and I have never known him to smoke pot at that time.  Marcy is a lesbian but I never heard her describe herself as a diesel dyke but she was young and the programs were not as regulated.  She was not let go because we gave her a going away party you don't do that when you are let go.  The Joyce that he speaks of was let go from the Daytop she did not leave on her own.

What I am saying is that he is making some of this stuff up.  I too can share experiences that I've had at Daytop, and some not so good, but Sekto has made statements about things he has no knowledge of and has also stated facts that just never happened.  I'm not writing here to defend Daytop I'm writing here because, with the understanding that his perceptions are his reality, they are not necessarily the truth.  The people who he speaks of are basically good people who were doing what they thought they had to do and not with the intention of abusing or injuring anyone.  There isn't one school, hospital, institution in the country that doesn't have bad stuff going on but this guy is way out there.  

There were a couple of staff there that were sent from NY to open the program when these individuals were too strong handed they were sent back to NY or let go.  By the time that the program closed, which was not due to wrong doing on Daytop's part as Setko stated, there were only a couple of people who were original NY staff, maybe 2.  He heard that Mike Gorman died at his daughter's house, he had no children.  From my recollections Ed Cinisomo was one of the nicest guys around but the kids had little to no contact with him because he was the executive director.  If Ed in fact ever made statements about the kids being statistics it would not have been done in a hateful degrading way.  

There were staff who shouldn't have been working with kids and I can see how a young kid can be hurt so I am not saying that Setko shouldn't take issue with Daytop I am only saying that he needs to get his facts straight because some of his perceptions are either straight up fantasies or lies.

[psy]

some of his perceptions are either straight up fantasies or lies.

Well.  The specific things you mentioned were minor (such as reasons a person was let go) and it is just as plausible either he was mistaken/misinformed or you are lying (i'm not accusing anybody here...  just stating a possibility).

Also, if you read  back on this thread carefully, SEKTO was careful to state *how* he knew things and what were his sources.  this makes everything that he says when mentioned with his sources evaluative opinion.

Such as.  If I say "Daytop did the thing with the pacifier.  I know this because i talked to sources A, B, and C."   It's opinion, because you're stating how you know something and a reader is free to disregard your *conclusion* based on the facts and sources you provided.

I think, also, if you read carefully, SEKTO would probably concede that the staff members had the best of intentions.  As you probably know well enough, however, this is not always enough. Furthermore, you're both coming at this from two very different perspectives.  You were a staff member so you've seen this through "staff's" eyes, and know most had the best of intentions.  Clients, on the other hand, had no way of knowing that.  It's easy to perceive misguided authority as sadism when you don't know what the other side feels like.

[Magnificent]

I guess it is acceptable with you for Setko to misstate or misinterpret.  I don't only speak as a staff member I also speak as a client and if a kid was told to wear a pacifier I can assure you it was not with the Director's permission.  It was clear to everyone who worked there that physical learning experiences were off limits.  However, I will give Setko his misinterpretations what I challenge is the outright dishonesty about people he presumes to know.  People he heard things about from other people and so on.  I get that he's utilizing this site as a means of healing, venting or whatever his intentions are but his global statement about Daytop are off.  That program has been around for over 40 years and the time that Setko was there it was so far from what he describes.

[psy]

I guess it is acceptable with you for Setko to misstate or misinterpret.

I didn't state that at all.  What Is said was that he stated where he got the information from and as such, you're free to accept his conclusion or come to your own.

Just FYI, there is no wrong interpretation.

[attachment=0:2tgxtvxv]Picture 496.png[/attachment:2tgxtvxv]

I don't only speak as a staff member I also speak as a client and if a kid was told to wear a pacifier I can assure you it was not with the Director's permission.

I can accept that.  But it seems you're now impying it could have happened.  Before you stated outright it did not.

It was clear to everyone who worked there that physical learning experiences were off limits.  However, I will give Setko his misinterpretations what I challenge is the outright dishonesty about people he presumes to know.  People he heard things about from other people and so on.

Ok. Well do you have any other examples?  I see you listed a few but that was only a minority of what he spoke about.  The bulk of his experience, it seems, you do not disagree with the facts of, as I see it... just his perceptions, opinions, and conclusions which naturally differ from person to person.

[Ursus]

I'm not sure that Leroy didn't smoke with the kids, we never heard of it and we pretty much heard most of what was going on. I personally spent a lot of time with Leroy and I have never known him to smoke pot at that time.

Well...if I were Leroy and had half a knuckle of street-smart savvy between my ears, I sure as hell wouldn't let on to a fellow staff member or admin at a drug rehab program, that I ever smoked any pot in my lifetime.  

...if a kid was told to wear a pacifier I can assure you it was not with the Director's permission. It was clear to everyone who worked there that physical learning experiences were off limits.

Given that many, possibly even most, of the staff working there have been clients of Daytop in the past, do you not think it quite possible that some of these staff may have utilized methods that they were subjected to during their time as clients?

Yeah, the methods supposedly became less brutal as time went on, "official" protocols changed. Perhaps you abided by these changes, and were philosophically in accord with them, but can you honestly say that all of your fellow staff felt deep down as you did?

A lot of the time, people go along with these changes in theory, but in the heat of a frustrated moment, revert back to the old methods...after all, "it worked" for them, right? These are not the kind of incidents that you -- a staff member who would surely disapprove -- would be informed about, unless a fellow staff snitched or let it slip. And given the nature of the program, the chances of a kid complaining about it are seriously reduced.

I'm not just trying to make an academic argument here; this kind of thing frequently happens in organizations that try to make major changes with a lot of the old guard or the old mindset still in place. The term "organizational incest" comes to mind, although it doesn't adequately describe all of what I am trying to say...

[Magnificent]

Again, my intention is not to defend Daytop or any of the tactics they may have used.  He told lies about people and brought up things about others that don't matter as the HIV status of a staff person.  You want to keep on going back to his experiences but that is not what I am debating.  I never saw a pacifier, could it have happened, perhaps but I never saw it.  I've even called a few old students and staff to ask about this because I thought it's been a while maybe I've forgotten but none of them remember anything like that.  Again, did it happen, it may have, don't know.  It's interesting that those who do remember are those who did not have a pleasant time at Daytop.  

My main issue has been his fabrications and stating that he knows something about someone through someone else.  That is irresponsible.  I get that he may not have known the legalities behind someone who is HIV positive not revealing their HIV status back then but why is that even an issue now.  Is he traumatized by the fact that someone who worked there may have been HIV+?  He doesn't even have direct knowledge whether anyone is + or not but he makes a point to mention it, why? How does he live not knowing about everyone he comes in contact with?  I believe that he brought that up for other reasons that had nothing to do with his trauma.  There were also people there with cancer, diabetes, and kidney problems is it an issue that he wasn’t informed about this?

Leroy and Greg were these 2 big black guys.  Again what is the issue that they traumatized him or that they were big black guys?  He has chosen to assassinate a few characters so I think that that opens him up to scrutiny.  Unless you are personal friends with this person are you positively sure that he isn't snowing all of you?  You attack honesty for challenging this guy and you are trying to express how I am off base but DO YOU REALLY KNOW.  Why are you so ready to believe him and question other points of view?

I'm with honesy, I think that this guy just has to blame someone or thing for his failures and can't accept that he is the problem.  It's ironic how he was this normal kid but he's smoking weed and doing Acid.  That's real normal dude.

[Magnificent]

I'm not sure that Leroy didn't smoke with the kids, we never heard of it and we pretty much heard most of what was going on. I personally spent a lot of time with Leroy and I have never known him to smoke pot at that time.

Well...if I were Leroy and had half a knuckle of street-smart savvy between my ears, I sure as hell wouldn't let on to a fellow staff member or admin at a drug rehab program, that I ever smoked any pot in my lifetime.  

...if a kid was told to wear a pacifier I can assure you it was not with the Director's permission. It was clear to everyone who worked there that physical learning experiences were off limits.

Given that many, possibly even most, of the staff working there have been clients of Daytop in the past, do you not think it quite possible that some of these staff may have utilized methods that they were subjected to during their time as clients?

Yeah, the methods supposedly became less brutal as time went on, "official" protocols changed. Perhaps you abided by these changes, and were philosophically in accord with them, but can you honestly say that all of your fellow staff felt deep down as you did?



A lot of the time, people go along with these changes in theory, but in the heat of a frustrated moment, revert back to the old methods...after all, "it worked" for them, right? These are not the kind of incidents that you -- a staff member who would surely disapprove -- would be informed about, unless a fellow staff snitched or let it slip. And given the nature of the program, the chances of a kid complaining about it are seriously reduced.

I'm not just trying to make an academic argument here; this kind of thing frequently happens in organizations that try to make major changes with a lot of the old guard or the old mindset still in place. The term "organizational incest" comes to mind, although it doesn't adequately describe all of what I am trying to say...

You may have missed this part but there were only 2 to 3 Daytop Graduates working at that facility at any time so I'm not sure who this guy is talking about.  Most of the other staff were college graduates who wanted to work with kids.  He's presentling a picuter here of this program full of addicts who had gone through the program and that is the furthest from the truth.  This guy just needs to get over it and if he needs therapy get but stop putting his issues on others.  If he's messed up he's messed up and he needs to deal with that not with everyone else.

[Magnificent]

I would think that if a place were truly as evil as this guy says that Daytop was why have there never been any complaints with the state or legal actions.  You can keep on responding to my postings with, "how do you know", but it can easily be checked out with the state.  You can also find out why the program closed.  That is one fact that can't be disputed, the New York operation decided to pull out of Texas.  I would say that if things were that horrible there would be some record of something going on.  That program operated in Texas for 10 years and when I run into someone who remembers Daytop they remember the good things as well.  Was it all good, probably not but this Sekto describes the house on haunted hill.  Perhaps his life is a horror movie I don't know but he is way over the top.  This is getting old so signing off.

[psy]

Again, my intention is not to defend Daytop or any of the tactics they may have used.  He told lies about people and brought up things about others that don't matter as the HIV status of a staff person.  You want to keep on going back to his experiences but that is not what I am debating.  I never saw a pacifier, could it have happened, perhaps but I never saw it.  I've even called a few old students and staff to ask about this because I thought it's been a while maybe I've forgotten but none of them remember anything like that.  Again, did it happen, it may have, don't know.  It's interesting that those who do remember are those who did not have a pleasant time at Daytop.  

My main issue has been his fabrications and stating that he knows something about someone through someone else.  That is irresponsible.  I get that he may not have known the legalities behind someone who is HIV positive not revealing their HIV status back then but why is that even an issue now.  Is he traumatized by the fact that someone who worked there may have been HIV+?  He doesn't even have direct knowledge whether anyone is + or not but he makes a point to mention it, why? How does he live not knowing about everyone he comes in contact with?  I believe that he brought that up for other reasons that had nothing to do with his trauma.  There were also people there with cancer, diabetes, and kidney problems is it an issue that he wasn’t informed about this?

Leroy and Greg were these 2 big black guys.  Again what is the issue that they traumatized him or that they were big black guys?  He has chosen to assassinate a few characters so I think that that opens him up to scrutiny.  Unless you are personal friends with this person are you positively sure that he isn't snowing all of you?  You attack honesty for challenging this guy and you are trying to express how I am off base but DO YOU REALLY KNOW.  Why are you so ready to believe him and question other points of view?

Well...  you obviously see you disagree with his conclusions and opinions, but I can't see a single thing you mentioned in your post where you question the factual accuracy of what he has said.

I'm with honesy, I think that this guy just has to blame someone or thing for his failures and can't accept that he is the problem.  It's ironic how he was this normal kid but he's smoking weed and doing Acid.  That's real normal dude.

[attachment=0:102adbk8]Picture 497.png[/attachment:102adbk8]

Note the synonyms "usual" or "typical".  As I recall, it's fairly usual for teens growing up to smoke pot or even try acid.  This does not make them addicts or mean they have a problem.

And what do you know of *his* life that you claim he has failed and is looking for somebody to blame?  Furthermore, starting off with statements like "have to wonder if many of you are sitting at computers in some pysch ward playing" will not make you friends or converts to your cause.  Maybe if you did a little less below the belt insulting and a little more factual refuting I might take you a little more seriously.  As it stands, you're just complaining because you disagree with his interpretation of the events and somehow that offends you. Well boo hoo. Opinions of other people offend me all the time but I respect their right to have them.

[psy]

I would think that if a place were truly as evil as this guy says that Daytop was why have there never been any complaints with the state or legal actions.  You can keep on responding to my postings with, "how do you know", but it can easily be checked out with the state.  You can also find out why the program closed.  That is one fact that can't be disputed, the New York operation decided to pull out of Texas.  I would say that if things were that horrible there would be some record of something going on.  That program operated in Texas for 10 years and when I run into someone who remembers Daytop they remember the good things as well.  Was it all good, probably not but this Sekto describes the house on haunted hill.  Perhaps his life is a horror movie I don't know but he is way over the top.  This is getting old so signing off.

This forum is littered with hundreds of examples of the incompetence or refusal of the state to do much of anything even in the rare cases it's their responsibility (most of the industry is unregulated).  Case in point:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/200 ... erg-center

Govt did an inspection, found abuse.  Result: place is still open.

Don't trust the govt to hold your hand. Most of the time they'll lead you into a wall.