Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run  (Read 141018 times)

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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2009, 01:02:31 PM »
There is a similar story in Cults in our Midst where a man was made to act like a baby and be in diapers and a crib, IIRC.  I think this was in the Center for Feeling Therapy.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2009, 01:04:42 PM »
You are welcome, Guest, and I thank you for your continued support and encouragement.

And now for a little more commentary.

As human beings we (or at least, most of us) need to be in relationship to other people. We need others as friends, confidants, lovers, etc. to offer us affirmation, solace, correction, fellowship, etc.

In normal, healthy relationships, however, we also need time and space for ourselves occasionally so we can obtain rest and spend time in reflection. We will on occasion voluntarily give up our personal agenda on occasion to meet an emergency, whether it concerns our family, out community, or our nation. But once the emergency has passed we go back to our normal lives again.

In abusive organization like DAYTOP this personal agenda is seldom if ever granted; the member is almost always, if not always, giving up his own right to privacy and the pursuit of his own goals in order to pursue the goals of the group and to submit to the agenda of his or her authority.

Finally, the process of group building, when it becomes abusive, creates a system that is mutually addictive to both founder(s) and followers.  The followers need the founder/leader/organization to make them feel that they are realizing the proffered goal; the founder/leader/organization needs followers (some call them the leader's "narcissistic supply") to make him (O'Brien) feel successful, powerful, and truly enlightened.

It is a truism that to be in one's teens and early twenties (like we Dallas DAYTOPians from the early '90s were) is a most difficult period of life; young people, such as the young people that DAYTOP seems to target (at least back then), are in a major transition period of life from childhood to adulthood. They are beginning to take on or be given greater responsibility over their own lives, making decisions for themselves that some authority-parents, teachers, etc.-formerly made for them. This can be either a heady experience or an unsettling one, often both at the same time. If some one older (like Mr. O'Brien) comes along and offers guidance, even in the form of harsh discipline,this can be experienced as relief from the pressure of decision-making.

Adolescence and early adulthood is a notoriously difficult period of life. It is a transition from childhood to adulthood, with young people wanting and being able to make more decisions for themselves. Decisions that an authority (teacher, parent, etc.) formerly made for them they are now having to make for themselves. And they are having to think about their futures: what career should they pursue? What do they want to look for in a potential mate? What do they believe about the meaning of life? This can be a bit unsettling, even scary, for a lot of young people. If a group like DAYTOP comes along and offers "assistance" in the form of "attack therapy," or even offers to make some or most of those decisions for them, then this can be experienced as a major relief.

I believe that this is how and why the DAYTOP generally only succeeds in enticing people to join the DAYTOP organization as staff/counselors, when the potential recruits are barely adults, whether in an emotional or chronological sense.

Furthermore, in practice, it looks a lot like "Honesty" is deriving his/her sense of self-worth as an individual from his/her involvement with his/her group (DAYTOP).

"Honesty" offers something of a voluntary testimonial as to how wonderful DAYTOP is--for the first time in his/her life he/she feels special and has been given meaning and purpose. This is no doubt true, which is precisely what makes his/her statements so sad.

There is a potential danger with public testimonials, such as "Honesty's" or any of the others made publicly by past or present DAYTOPians. If the testimony is to a person or a human organization (as in this case since, after all, DAYTOP is a human organization which is led by imperfect humans and not by God Himself) there is the possibility that the person or organization may change in time from good to bad. For example, teaching discipline to students or to one's own children is essentially good, and getting them to articulate answers to spoken questions may facilitate learning. But discipline may mutate into abuse, if, for example, the teacher or parent or counselor hits a student with words; with verbal abuse and psychological assaults, humiliation and such.  At this point, since Honesty has made a statement praising the DAYTOP it will be much harder for him/her to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and Honesty will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the "dope fiend/druggie" who was hit, humiliated, verbally abused, or otherwise mistreated.  After all, if what I am saying is true in all respects, then it would mean that DAYTOP has been abusing kids for the past forty years, and why would DAYTOP or any of its staff want to acknowledge and admit to that?

This is very much like what happens with the woman who is physically abused by her husband. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.
Public testimonies to God or abstract principles like love, patriotism, or the virtues of a lifestyle of absolute sobriety do not carry the same potentiality for negative consequences, for the simple reason that God and abstract principles do not change from good to bad, from healthy to unhealthy.

Virtually any conversion experience will feel similar on the level of emotions, whether the conversion is to Christ, Mohammed, Marx, Monsignor O'Brien, or Elvis.

That does not mean all conversions are the same, just that they feel the same.

And doubtless we'll shortly be hearing the DAYTOPians cry "slander" as a response to my recent posts on the topic of "Honesty" and the source(s) from which he/she derives his/her self esteem, and his/her sense of personal validation.  Any criticism of any of DAYTOP or anyone on its staff will be automatically be interpreted as "slander" and/or "persecution" as we all well know.

I would encourage the DAYTOPians to try and remain objective and rational in reflecting on the concepts that I have introduced to the discussion.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 01:26:55 PM by SEKTO »

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2009, 01:24:12 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?




Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.

I beg your pardon for not answering this sooner, Anne; I was meaning to get to it today and thanks for reminding me.

Here was my original post, made last 6 December:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=26260&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60
Quote
For example: if somebody new was "copping an attitude" we'd "reel them in" by arranging a "haircut" with that person's "big brother" and some "coordinators" or "counselors." We'd confront this person on their "image problem" and "physical attitudes" and then after the "haircut" they'd be given an "L.E." like sitting in The Chair for awhile with a sign on their back, or walking around with a sign that said, "ask me to bark like a dog" or a pacifier on a string around their neck. If the person would still not come around, then they'd be confronted in the "encounter group" and then if they were still had not made the proper attitude adjustment they'd be "called out" before the entire "DAYTOP family" in "morning meeting," which I suppose was a variation of the Fireplace Ritual, in an effort to help "pull them up."

To answer your question: I recall Mike Gomez being made to walk around with a pacifier hanging around his neck on a string (like a necklace), but no, I do not recall him actually being made to put it in his mouth.  People were told to approach him and ask "Why do you have that pacifier around your neck, Mike?" and he was made to reply, "Because I am such a baby."  That was Marcy's idea.
 
And once I was made to walk around with a sign on my back that said "Ask me to bark like a dog."  People would approach me and ask me to bark like a dog, and I would.  That was the idea of a coordinator named Nathan Y.

Also I was once made (again, by Marcy) to dance around like a spazz in morning meeting in an effort to "help me" overcome my inhibitions and social shyness.  At first I refused, but she told me that we would stay in the meeting for as long as it took, until I danced.  It was terribly embarrassing for me, and only added to my hangups.  I never forgot the time Marcy kept us in morning meeting for as long as it took in order to make me dance.  I felt like an idiot.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 01:31:09 PM by SEKTO »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #153 on: February 04, 2009, 01:30:11 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?




Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.

I beg your pardon for not answering this sooner, Anne; I was meaning to get to it today and thanks for reminding me.

Here was my original post, made last 6 December:

http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... a&start=60
Quote
For example: if somebody new was "copping an attitude" we'd "reel them in" by arranging a "haircut" with that person's "big brother" and some "coordinators" or "counselors." We'd confront this person on their "image problem" and "physical attitudes" and then after the "haircut" they'd be given an "L.E." like sitting in The Chair for awhile with a sign on their back, or walking around with a sign that said, "ask me to bark like a dog" or a pacifier on a string around their neck. If the person would still not come around, then they'd be confronted in the "encounter group" and then if they were still had not made the proper attitude adjustment they'd be "called out" before the entire "DAYTOP family" in "morning meeting," which I suppose was a variation of the Fireplace Ritual, in an effort to help "pull them up."

To answer your question: I recall Mike Gomez being made to walk around with a pacifier hanging around his neck on a string (like a necklace), but no, I do not recall him actually being made to put it in his mouth.  People were told to approach him and ask "Why do you have that pacifier around your neck, Mike?" and he was made to reply, "Because I am such a baby."

And once I was made to walk around with a sign on my back that said "Ask me to bark like a dog."  People would approach me and ask me to bark like a dog, and I would.

Also I was once made (by Marcy) to dance around like a spazz in morning meeting in an effort to "help me" overcome my inhibitions and social shyness.  At first I refused, but she told me that we would stay in the meeting for as long as it took, until I danced.  It was terribly embarrassing for me, and only added to my hangups.  I never forgot the time Marcy kept us in morning meeting for as long as it took in order to make me dance.  I felt like an idiot.



Wow.  Sounds familiar though, unfortunately.  Break 'em down thru humiliation.  

SETKO, I was asking the idiot who was going after you.  I believe these things happened because they happened to me in a different program.  I was wondering what his thoughts were on this type of "therapy".
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #154 on: February 04, 2009, 01:38:47 PM »
Anne, I slightly edited the post you quoted in order to include the names of the people who thought up these humiliating "LEs."

Marcy was one of the more vicious and confrontational counselors; she was downright sadistic about it really, I'd say.  

I used to hate the encounter groups she's run because she'd scream at you until you wanted to hide under your chair.  

She'd always scream at me and tell me how phony and shallow and plastic she thought that I was.

She'd counsel me to try and not use big words when I speak to people and told me that she thought it very annoying.

I am as certain as I can be that she once recommended to me that I read Dianetics.  That would have been in '93 or '94.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2009, 04:17:59 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "HONESTY"
it appears you have not gotten the help you need.

Define "help you need", or for that matter, why don't you define "recovery"?  This is not a stupid request.  Answer the question and you'll see where i'm going.


I have already given you my definition. My refernce to "Help you Need" is for Mr. B (Sekto) obvious unreolved guilt he has for his treatment of others and his ongoing desire to blame others for his actions. If you want to show me where you are going feel free to do so.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2009, 04:27:19 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Monsignor O'Brien and the DAYTOP organization have made this person "Honesty" feel good about him or her-self, probably for the first time in his/her life, and "Honesty" wants to do everything he/she can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose DAYTOP and hurt the credibility of the man (O'Brien) and group (DAYTOP) that have given this person his/her new-found improved self-image.

"Honesty's" is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual.  They are not seen as adequate individuals in and of themselves.

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, get people off of drugs, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

"Honesty's" is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals. It is especially heinous when followed in the name of helping people.

"Honesty" (and all of the DAYTOPians for that matter) needs to learn that his/her importance and worth as a person does not depend on any role or function that he/she fills in a group-his/her value (and that of all people) rests in the fact that he/she is a human being. One is not more valuable because one possesses a high IQ, has many possessions, lives in a three-story mansion, or has been sober for twenty years.

After all, it is DAYTOP that makes "Honesty" feel so good about him or her-self-so self-confident and worthwhile, probably for the first time in his/her life. He/she may believe that he has no options outside of the group, and that is not a happy prospect for him/her.

So rather than receive the message, he/she attacks the messenger (in this case, myself) through use of the ad hominem attack.

Again, a very typical reaction for someone in an abusive and controlling group. After a certain point it seems that they are unable to refute the logical, objective arguments put to them and so he/she does what people often do in such a situation: they attack DAYTOP's critics personally. If one party to a dispute can discredit the other party in some way, then it is easier to to discredit that person's arguments. This is what the DAYTOPian trolls engage in time after time, argument for the sake of argument, and it is quite a pedantic and tiresome tactic.



Bla,bla,bla, You like many others have continued to try and slander Dyatop becuase it didn't help you. Daytop has never said they can or would be for everyone. I am not an employee of Daytop and and I'm not saying that some staff or counselors at Dyatop sucked. This is true and likely you had to deal with some. But this does not mean that the program or everyone associated with it is this way. You attacked people who are dead and some who are not. Just beacuse you had a poor experience does not mean the program was bad. Perhaps you were not and appear not to be ready to come to terms with your own shit. So don't accuse me of things I'm not and don't blame others for your obvious failure at treatment. Did you ever think that maybe just maybe you were the one who was wrong.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2009, 06:32:47 PM »
^^
TheWho
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2009, 12:07:48 PM »
Telling me, Honesty, that what happened to me in DAYTOP is somehow my fault, that I somehow deserved that kind of mistreatment, is like telling a woman who was raped that it is her fault and that she should not have dressed like a slut to begin with.  

Mike Gomez not deserve that.  Billy C. did not deserve that.  I did not deserve that.  Nobody deserves that.

I did not "fail" in my treatment, DAYTOP failed us.

You are blaming the victims (a form of the ad hominem attack) and insulting our intelligence and integrity.  

So please do me (us) a favor, Honesty.  

Before you pop off with another self-justifying response on this board, why don't you take a little time to think about this.

If you are honest with yourself I think you will see that you do not have anything here to take a stand about.

You are very much in the wrong here.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #159 on: February 08, 2009, 05:41:22 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
Telling me, Honesty, that what happened to me in DAYTOP is somehow my fault, that I somehow deserved that kind of mistreatment, is like telling a woman who was raped that it is her fault and that she should not have dressed like a slut to begin with.  

Mike Gomez not deserve that.  Billy C. did not deserve that.  I did not deserve that.  Nobody deserves that.

I did not "fail" in my treatment, DAYTOP failed us.

You are blaming the victims (a form of the ad hominem attack) and insulting our intelligence and integrity.  

So please do me (us) a favor, Honesty.  

Before you pop off with another self-justifying response on this board, why don't you take a little time to think about this.

If you are honest with yourself I think you will see that you do not have anything here to take a stand about.

You are very much in the wrong here.

I'm not wrong and you know it. You slander people who had nothing to do with your issue. The person or people you claim hurt you have not. You had the oppertunity to leave the progrm at any time. You made a choice and you have to live with it. Daytop never made you do anything, you chose to. So don't blame others for you poor choicese, blame yourself.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2009, 11:48:00 PM »
Your words brought tears to my eyes. I am not one who often cries. I am currently in 2x weekly sessions with a Psychologist who inadvertantly triggered a cascade of memories and rage in me...by simply using vernacular I remember from Daytop. He had at some point worked within a similar program. I made my disgust about that known.
       I was one of the first 7 "family members" of DayTop Richardson TX. In that "common ground", I was trained and encouraged to be hostile and confrontational. My recollection of encounter groups are as of being a prized conteder in the verbally abusive equivalent of a cock fighting ring. I was a 13 yr. old girl.   I know that I quickly assimilated in to a scary little bitch who would "drop slips" on even counselors (Yes, even Marcy. I wonder if the Marcia written of had a scar on her right cheek. Same cheeky bitch?). I was searching for that "refuge" we all intoned about together, each morning meeting. I became trained to cut my peers to the quick and was rewarded with promotions for adapting so well. I am sorry to all who have ever encountered me in an encounter group or "hair cut" (more like a scalping). My experience of that place would have been far less damaging if someone any one of them had allowed me to be a kid or at least reminded me that I was.
     I was 14 when I was sent "upstate" to NewYork for residential treatment, after the police found me stoned at a male counselor's apartment. Granted, he held only a marginal role of being an "atheletics counselor" and was of course to the "others"(promoted from within) an outsider. No charges were filed against the "counselor" for having provided me with drugs or for harboring a runaway. One officer did ask if "anything had happened". I answered truthfully, "no". While sexual contact had not occured by the time of my being "located there", it had seemed to me inevitable. By that I mean unavoidable, as choice was not a consideration in that role. Following this, I was treated to my 15TH birthday in Millbrook, NY. In the RTC environment I was "that one" the girl with the dubious distinction of being the problem child that had been swept their way. I am aware that that which made me vulnerable to that particular pervert pre-dated my arrival at DayTop. That did not make the hypocracy of having been sent to RTC, and harshly discouraged from speaking honestly of the circumstances that brought me to RTC any less harmful. I became sucidol while in NY.
     I'm startled by how vivid my anger for these thing is.
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Offline Magnificent

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2009, 06:55:04 PM »
I'm not sure who B is and by his ramblings I have no doubt that he has been traumatized but he has more then a few facts wrong.  I'll begin by saying that yes many mistakes have been made in the treatment field and Daytop is one among many.  To clear up some of the fiction that B has been going on about.

1. Daytop, Texas closed in 2000 and it was a choice made in NY because of the manage care company that had taken over funding of the Dallas programs.  This can easily be checked with the state, who still holds Daytop in high esteem.  Daytop, Texas was a small operation so after salaries and overhead there would have been little to, "embezzle".
2. Daytop is not a religious organization and has not ever nor is run by the mob.  
3. "Marcia", as you have chosen to call her, and it's a good thing because, can you say slander.  Your story about Mike is a complete fabrication and "Marcia" left Daytop of her own accord for a better opportunity and just an fyi, she is doing very well today, gainfully employed, and very happy.
4.  You may not know of any successes that came from Daytop but that would be because you were not immediately successful and you are one angry mixed up person.  By the way the person who told me of this blog is a success story.

Again, I have no doubt that you did not have a good experience and I agree that much was lacking, "back in the day", but there are TC's all over this country, including Daytop, that do a good job.  The field has become more regulated and, at least in Texas, you can not work as a counselor in a substance abuse program without a credential.

You need to check your comments and keep them in perspective.  "All", of the friends that you made at Daytop who were not successful are not, "ALL", of the people who have walked through the doors of Daytop.  There are many out there who's lives are better and they are better for their experience at Daytop.  It's sad for you that you decided to seek out the stuggling addict rather than the addict who was able to achieve sobriety one day at a time.
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Offline Magnificent

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #162 on: February 27, 2009, 08:01:45 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "HONESTY"
it appears you have not gotten the help you need.

Define "help you need", or for that matter, why don't you define "recovery"?  This is not a stupid request.  Answer the question and you'll see where i'm going.


Are you kidding me.  You can stop your little game of how do you define this or that or whatever.  Here are the facts Sekto or whatever is full of it.  He has told so many lies it's comical.  True, there probably were people who abused power at times but this guy is amazing.  Are you his lawyer or is he able to take care of himself now that he's all grown up.  Man I came on here because i was just told about this and wanted to check it out and I have to wonder if many of you are sitting at computers in some pysch ward playing.  And, if people really want to have a discussion do more then making fun of a tpyo.
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Offline Magnificent

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2009, 08:13:31 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Honesty"

I never said the person wasn't sober, I said they have failed in recovery. In order to recover you must come to terms with issues. As SEKTO has not.


Yeah, we get it.  Anyone who dares criticize your beloved program or program guru obviously hasn't "come to terms with their issues".  Right.

 ::)  ::)  ::)

I never thought that I'd be in the position of defending DAYTOP because, as I have said there were some issue there that I had a problem with, but this guy SEKTO is not telling the truth and even when he tells the truth is with major spin.  I don't have an issue with people sharing their feelings and what issues they may have had with any program but I know about this program and he's feeding you all a lot of stories that I'm sure he believes but just aren't true.  Honesty knows what he's talking about and SEKTO is spun his own memories which he believe to be true.
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Offline Magnificent

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #164 on: February 27, 2009, 08:17:30 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?




Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.

To end this one, another fabrication.  Maybe SETKO heard some stories from those who were graduates because they use to tell stories about the old days but pacifiers and all of that other crap never happened.  His fantasy again.  I'm not attempting to belittle his experience apparently it was not good but he needs to be truthful.  Share your pain without telling lies I'm sure there's are many things that he can share that are true that can express his pain but this is sick.
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