Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Daytop Village
DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
psy:
--- Quote from: "SEKTO" ---There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make their critical thinking skills turn on with respect to what I have brought to the table and concede that I might have a point.
--- End quote ---
This is not true. I've seen it happen (on this site too). It just takes time, sharing the right information, and especially asking the right questions.
I've also talked scientologists into reading Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" (granted I agreed to read dianetics in return.. which was blah). It just takes time. People snap out of brainwashing without a support structure of some type / some similar group.
psy:
--- Quote from: "SEKTO" ---Do you mean the one about the coin trick that one eventually starts playing on oneself? I'll post it later, when I have more time.
--- End quote ---
The one I was referring to was the one with the three coins where the counselor shows people how cult cons are pulled.
SEKTO:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "SEKTO" ---There's nothing that anybody can say, some magic phrase, that will make their critical thinking skills turn on with respect to what I have brought to the table and concede that I might have a point.
--- End quote ---
This is not true. I've seen it happen (on this site too). It just takes time, sharing the right information, and especially asking the right questions.
I've also talked scientologists into reading Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" (granted I agreed to read dianetics in return.. which was blah). It just takes time. People snap out of brainwashing without a support structure of some type / some similar group.
--- End quote ---
You have a good point psy, but still I do not altogether agree. Sometimes members of cultic groups are just too far gone, have passed the psychological point of no return, and will not leave the group (or abandon the group mindset) no matter what happens. Sometimes the are just too personally invested in the group and have too much of an interest in believing in the group and its mission to just simply walk away.
I do not doubt that in the individual DAYTOPians' hearts, they are (or at least believe that they are) truly dedicated to DAYTOP and the Monsignor's teachings.
But at the same time, also in their hearts they wish that they could be superior to the rest of us.
They want to believe that they know something that we do not know, that they see something that we do not see, that they have figured out something that we have not apprehended.
And they are for the most trapped in this kind of self-reinforcing delusion.
They for the most part are unwilling or unable to admit to themselves, or to anybody else, that they could be wrong and possibly could have been misled by DAYTOP.
Better IMO to undermine their potential success in damaging more kids than to try and get those who are in, out.
Personally, I have dealt with a number of cults and cult members and I swear, sometimes I think that these members would still believe in the group and it's leader no matter what evidence you provided them with to try and show them that the group is a fraud. Mormons and their devotion to Joseph Smith and the LDS Church are the first example that come to mind. You could put evidence, absolute proof that Joseph Smith was a fraud right before their eyes and they'd still hold to Mormonism as their religion. You could show them the proof that the Book of Abraham was not really translated from Abraham's writings "written by his own hand upon papyrus" and you could show them the proof that the BOM was plagiarized from a book by one Soloman Spaulding and they'd still believe in Mormonism.
Why? Because of the psychological principle of confirmation bias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
I could give the DAYTOPians absolute irrefutable proof of what happened to my friends and me back then and they still would not believe me. Because if I am right and telling the truth (and I am) and they were obliged to acknowledge it, then it;d mean that DAYTOP has been abusing people for the past forty years and they'd not be too keen on admitting it.
I guess that my experience with DAYTOP may have somehow "strengthened" me in some sense, although I must say that I've come to now hold somewhat of an attitude of fatalism. One must be bitten by the radioactive spider before one's Spidey Sense kicks in, if you take my meaning. The "long-termers" in DAYTOP are largely "sold out" altogether and have abandoned any need to reference themselves to anything other that what the organization assures them of.
Confirmation Bias is also known as Tolstoy Syndrome. A couple of quote by Leo Tolstoy:
"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life".
A related Tolstoy quote is:
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
SEKTO:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "SEKTO" ---Do you mean the one about the coin trick that one eventually starts playing on oneself? I'll post it later, when I have more time.
--- End quote ---
The one I was referring to was the one with the three coins where the counselor shows people how cult cons are pulled.
--- End quote ---
Is this it?
http://www.piney.com/sky1.html
Mind Manipulation
A Psychological Coin Trick In my work at Wellspring in helping victims of cults and spiritual abuse understand what happened to them I often demonstrate a simple coin trick. I place three coins on a table and keep a fourth in one hand. Let's say the coins on the table are a quarter, a nickel, and a penny, and the one in my hand is also a penny. I don't tell the person what coin I have in my hand; rather, I say, "I can read your mind, and I have already predicted what you are about to do. The coin in my hand will prove to you that this is so. Now, what I want you to do is to pick up any two of the coins on the table." Let's say he picks up the quarter and the nickel, leaving the penny on the table. As I show him the penny in my hand I say, "Was there any way I could have known you would leave the penny on the table?" The answer, of course, is "No," and he begins to believe that maybe I do have ESP. But then I tell him to pick up a different combination of coins. So he picks up the quarter and the penny, leaving the nickel on the table. Now I say, "Give me either one of the coins you just picked up." Let's say he gives me the penny. Then I say to him as I again show him the penny in my hand, "Ah, ha! Was there any way I could have known you would give me the penny?" Again, the answer is "No." But by now he's beginning to see what I'm doing. Finally, I tell him that there is only one other possible outcome of the trick. Instead of leaving the penny on the table, or picking it up with another coin and then giving it me, he could have picked it up but then kept it while giving me the other coin. I explain that in that case I would have shown him the penny in my hand and said, "Ah, ha! Was there any way I could have known you would keep the penny?" Now he understands that all I'm doing is interpreting what he does after he does it. I don't say at the start that the coin in my hand will be the same as the coin he leaves or gives me or keeps. I wait till he makes his move and then I only interpret what he does afterwa seem like I have psychic powers.
Anonymous:
A person I was in treatment with in NY told me about this web site so I thought I'd take a look around & I landed on this discussion. Man it sounds like your experience was horrible and you are still dealing with it. I am sorry for your pain. Your experience is unfortunate. With that said, is it a good idea to say "so-and-so told me they were told that?" That is how rumors get started and perpetuated. You could be unknowingly perpetuating false information about the living and the dead. Just sharing my thoughts. Good luck in your road to resolution.
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