Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Daytop Village
DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
SEKTO:
I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts, junkies and crack fiends coming off of the mean streets of NYC, but to apply those same techniques to suburban kids who are experimenting with grass at the local high school, even if it's an outpatient thing, is dangerous at best, and psychologically devastating, crippling at its worst.
And in all truth, when I was in DAYTOP I met some for-real ex-dope fiends, trust me. That scared me away from ever getting too mixed up with the "hard stuff." Again, DAYTOP was not all bad, and there are some positives to my experience, but in the longer run, my final assessment was that it was a toxic environment to put some kid like me into, and that it was nothing but a negative influence on me. It (the DAYTOP experience) just simply taught me to be fearful and dependent.
Taken literally and as a whole, these "DAYTOP values" are IMO a set of cutesy-sounding, thought-stopping, critical-analysis reducing armchair-psychologist mumbo jumbo.
That place utterly undermined my sense of identity and personal boundaries. And it has taken me fifteen-odd years to see that. This message board IS part of my therapy and healing process. Good God. These realizations are cathartic, and disturbing for me to process.
psy:
--- Quote from: "SEKTO" ---I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts
--- End quote ---
I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?
--- Quote ---junkies and crack fiends coming off of the mean streets of NYC, but to apply those same techniques to suburban kids who are experimenting with grass at the local high school, even if it's an outpatient thing, is dangerous at best, and psychologically devastating, crippling at its worst.
--- End quote ---
I hear that. If you tell a kid he's a fuck-up enough, he'll become one, whether he was to begin with or not.
An imaginary conversation with a staff member / other member of the group trusted with confrontation:
staff: you are a fuckup, a drug addict, and you need to admit that to yourself to get better.
inmate: but i'm not. Just because I smoked pot does not mean I am addicted to it.
staff: you wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem. Your best stinking thinking got you here.
inmate: but that doesn't make sense. There was no due process or diagnosis. how do you know I have a problem.
staff: because you're here. Nobody is here that doesn't have a problem (mystical manipulation). We know. We are addicts just like you.
inmate: you don't know me. I just met you.
staff: an addict knows an addict.
inmate: that doesn't make any sense.
staff: that's because you're thinking too much. Remember. Your best thinking got you here. You are sick in the head. You are just in denial. It's not just a river in ejypt.
inmate: No i'm not in denial. you people are crazy!
staff: Your denial is just further evidence you are in denial.
And so on and so forth, wearing away resistance. Eventually the inmate decides to "fake it", becoming part of the group illusion that everybody there is a hopeless addict that will be deadinsaneinjail without the program. Eventually the faking it turns into "believing it". Voila! A normal person is turned into a hopeless addict right then and there. DId the person have a "problem" to begin with? Who knows... but he does now!
--- Quote ---This message board IS part of my therapy and healing process. Good God. These realizations are cathartic, and disturbing for me to process.
--- End quote ---
Yeah. Fornits can be a head trip of sorts, but I agree. It's healthy in the long run to think about and process these things. IMO, the longer you wait the more difficult it is anyway.
I'll respond more to your posts in a bit. I'm working on a few projects here.
SEKTO:
--- Quote ---I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?
--- End quote ---
Well, I did say, "maybe, perhaps" they could be useful to some degree if we are talking about a hard-core addict in genuine denial about the extent of his or her problem.
--- Quote ---
staff: you are a fuckup, a drug addict, and you need to admit that to yourself to get better.
inmate: but i'm not. Just because I smoked pot does not mean I am addicted to it.
staff: you wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem. Your best stinking thinking got you here.
inmate: but that doesn't make sense. There was no due process or diagnosis. how do you know I have a problem.
staff: because you're here. Nobody is here that doesn't have a problem (mystical manipulation). We know. We are addicts just like you.
inmate: you don't know me. I just met you.
staff: an addict knows an addict.
inmate: that doesn't make any sense.
staff: that's because you're thinking too much. Remember. Your best thinking got you here. You are sick in the head. You are just in denial. It's not just a river in ejypt.
inmate: No i'm not in denial. you people are crazy!
staff: Your denial is just further evidence you are in denial.
--- End quote ---
Hahahaahha!!! I had exchanges with "counselors" JUST LIKE THIS in that place. Almost verbatim.
You are blowing my mind, man. You understand, you really seem to understand.
Wow, yes, I did eventually start to "Act as if" and then started to believe in the illusion...they repeatedly taught us that deadinsaneinjail stuff. Exactly, word for word.
I never did turn into a street junkie or crack fiend or anything (DAYTOP scared me away from that stuff for the most part) but got to where I was the biggest potsmoker this side of Cheech. I am not proud of my past using and drinking.
My friends and buddies from there, however...two of them are dead now (one of them was a serious heroin addict who got killed while trying to steal a car), one of them spent a good while hooked on Oxycontin and had to go into another rehab to kick that stuff, another was on crack for a while, some have been in jail or prison, and I cannot think of one who stayed "clean and sober" in the longer run.
Like I said yesterday, two of my best friends are ex-DAYTOPians and they are doing relatively fine now, as am I.
DAYTOP, then the various cults I mingled with, researched, and the one I was in, and the Army collectively really fucked my head up. And it started with them. Damn.
But hell, fifty years ago they would have been giving kids like us electroshocks and lobotomies and shit. At least now we have psychotherapy.
--- Quote ---Yeah. Fornits can be a head trip of sorts, but I agree. It's healthy in the long run to think about and process these things. IMO, the longer you wait the more difficult it is anyway.
--- End quote ---
Head trips are a good thing, as far as I am concerned. Fornits for me is a healthy head trip. Thanks for your time.
dishdutyfugitive:
--- Quote --- SEKTO wrote:I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts
I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?
--- End quote ---
Folks who ardently believe they have the solution for addicts all have 1 thing in common - just focus on being sober today and show up tomorrow - you can deal with your 'drug thinking tomorrow here'
rinse - lather - repeat adinfenitum
Now, I will give these folks credit for trying to help people. However, they're incredibly misinformed to the condition, solution and big picture. They're insanely microfocused on the AA model. They will never achieve results that equate to a 'cure' or solution.
They need to wipe the drawing board clean. Erase the past and start from scratch. Leave your fuckin egos and wallets at the door.
SEKTO:
--- Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive" ---
--- Quote --- SEKTO wrote:I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts
I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?
--- End quote ---
Folks who ardently believe they have the solution for addicts all have 1 thing in common - just focus on being sober today and show up tomorrow - you can deal with your 'drug thinking tomorrow here'
rinse - lather - repeat adinfenitum
Now, I will give these folks credit for trying to help people. However, they're incredibly misinformed to the condition, solution and big picture. They're insanely microfocused on the AA model. They will never achieve results that equate to a 'cure' or solution.
They need to wipe the drawing board clean. Erase the past and start from scratch. Leave your fuckin egos and wallets at the door.
--- End quote ---
What, in your estimation, is the condition, solution and big picture?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version