Author Topic: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run  (Read 55321 times)

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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 11:07:38 PM »
Yep, that's pretty much it, pretty much what happened to me.  They had me convinced that I was a lot worse off than I really was before I went into their program, and then after I left it, within a couple years' time I turned into an actual monster pothead, me and all my Daytopian friends.

And then, I subsequently turned to one group after another in an effort to get well and stay well...I'd become convinced that I could not function as a healthy an autonomous human being, that the only way to survive was as part of some group.  Basically, I got to a point to where I had lost pretty much all sense of personal identity and defined myself in terms of whatever group I was visiting or aligned with at the time.  And I have been around a lot of them: JPUSA, the Twelve Tribes, a small group in Dallas you've probably never heard of, ISKCON...believe me, I have made the rounds of the fringe religious groups.  

Most of these communities I never really intended to join; I was simply "checking them out" from the point of view of a researcher.  I just simply enjoy researching cults.  It helps me to understand my own experience and I simply find it fascinating.

Sheez, this discussion is really helping me.  It'll take a while to process it all.  Thanks for your time and help here.

Have you ever heard anything about DAYTOP having ties to, or being funded "under the table" by, organized crime out of NYC?  When I was around DAYTOP back in the day, there were rumors floating around that kids coming back from Millbrook would tell of.
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 11:21:43 PM »
I just was skimming through "AA, Cult Or Cure", the book I linked to earlier. I found this:

Quote
So if detoxification isn't the primary purpose of 12-step inpatient treat-ment, what is? One 12-step advocate lists the goals of treatment as follows:
   

(1) Treatment does not "cure" the disease—the expectation is that by insti­tuting an achievable method of abstinence the disease will be put into re­mission. (2) All therapeutic efforts are directed at helping the patient reach a level of motivation that will enable him or her to commit to this abstinence program. (3) An educational program is developed to assist the patient in becoming familiar with the addictive process, insight into compulsive behaviors, medical complications, emotional insight, and maintenance of physical, mental, and spiritual health. (4) The patient's family and other significant persons are included in the therapeutic process with the understanding that the therapeutic process does not occur in a vacuum, but rather in interpersonal relationships. (5) The patient is indoctrinated into the AA program and instructed as to the content and application of the 12 steps of the program. [emphasis added] (6) Group and individual therapy are directed at self­ understanding and acceptance with emphasis on how alcohol and drugs have affected their lives. (7) There is insistence on participation in a longitudinal support and follow-up program based on the belief that, as in the management of all chronic disease processes, maintenance is critically important to the ultimate outcome of any therapy. This follow-up usually consists of ongoing support provided by the treatment facility as well as participation in community self-help groups such as AA, Narcotics Anonymous (NA), Opiates Anonymous (OA), and the like.lv
   

Put in plain English, this means that the purpose of "the treatment process" is to "indoctrinate" the patient into "the AA program" and into the disease-concept-of-alcoholism belief system. That is, the purpose of 12-step treatment is to convince the patient that he has an incurable "disease" from which he will never recover; that he is "powerless" over his alcohol con­sumption; that he will inevitably lose control if he drinks; that should he return to drinking, he will inevitably drink in a progressively more destruc­tive manner; that he is "in denial"; that he must not trust his own thoughts and perceptions; that he must abandon self-direction and turn his life and will over to God (or God's interpreter, AA); and that he must make a com­mitment to lifelong involvement in Alcoholics Anonymous, because the only alternative to such lifelong involvement is "jails, institutions, or death."

That is the purpose of 12-step "treatment." It really has very little to do with the problem of alcohol abuse. Rather, it's an indoctrination program designed to inculcate both distrust of self and learned helplessness ("power­lessness") in the patient, and to convince him that his only hope of salvation is to abandon self-direction and to plunge himself into lifelong participation in the religious program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Never mind that every single premise upon which this indoctrination program is built is demonstrably false. As someone once pointed out, smoking is a behavior and lung cancer is a disease, just as drinking is a behavior and cirrhosis is a disease. Alcohol abuse (lifting bottles or glasses to one's lips and swallowing more alcohol than is healthy) is a behavior, not a "disease"—terming a behavior a "disease" broadens the term's definition so greatly as to render it almost meaningless. Thomas Szasz puts the matter thusly: "Excessive drinking is a habit. If we choose to call bad habits 'diseases,' there is no limit to what we may define as a disease."lvi

As well, drinkers are not "powerless" over their alcohol consumption—it isn't Satan controlling the muscles in the arm lifting the glass to the lips —and they can learn to control it."Loss of control" tends to occur only when individuals believe that it will occur.lvii

Progression of the "disease" is not inevitable, and a very high percentage of alcohol abusers (including those termed "alcohol dependent") eventually "mature out" and either achieve non problem drinking or abstinence without participation in AA or any treatment program.lviii

"Denial" is a Catch 22 concept, and as such is essentially useless except as a bludgeon in the indoctrination process—if you admit that you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic; and if you deny that you're an alcoholic, you're "in denial," which is evidence that you're an alcoholic. Either way, as with denials of witchcraft in the Middle Ages, you lose.

And, finally, participation in AA is hardly a ticket to salvation; the recovery rate in AA is no higher than the rate of spontaneous remission.lix

Because they've been thoroughly indoctrinated into the AA/disease­concept belief system, these facts matter not at all to those administering and conducting 12-step treatment programs. For them, having turned their lives and wills over to God, The Program has become a matter of religious faith; and even to question the premises of their belief system is blasphemous. They know The Truth—as revealed by Bill Wilson in the "inspired" Big Book. As well, they believe that their sobriety and their very lives depend on "carry[ing] this message" to those not yet saved, so they often carry that message with fearful zeal.

But what is inpatient treatment actually like? Many of the elements of inpatient treatment are little changed from the days of Dr. Bob's early hospital work: the patient is isolated from family and friends; outside con­tacts are greatly restricted; reading matter is restricted to approved "re­covery" materials, such as the Big Book and other 12-step literature; the patient is regarded as sick and as unable to think sanely—thus the need for indoctrination; coercion is regarded as a normal and sometimes desirable part of the recovery process; the patient is given little time alone and is kept very busy; and the patient is placed in a milieu where indoctrination is achieved largely through the pressure of a unanimous majority opinion, and where dissenting views and skeptical attitudes are viewed as sick, as "disease symptoms." In this milieu, all activities—including individual counseling and group "therapy"—are aimed at one goal: indoctrination into the AA/ disease-concept belief system, and involvement of the patient in AA.

LOL... I swear.  I had not read that bit yet.  Came across it by chance.  I haven't read the whole book yet.  Have you read "Cults in Our Midst" by Margaret Singer?  That's another one i'd recommend.

What I find fascinating, though is that instead of becoming a lifelong member of a specific group, you've found a way to adapt to all sorts of them.  Did any of the beliefs of the other groups contradict those of DAYTOP?

As for your question about DAYTOP and it's connections to NYC organized crime.  I've forwarded that question to my friend (Antigen) who knows a lot more than I about DAYTOP's connections.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 11:44:48 PM »
Quote
LOL... I swear. I had not read that bit yet. Came across it by chance. I haven't read the whole book yet. Have you read "Cults in Our Midst" by Margaret Singer? That's another one i'd recommend.

What I find fascinating, though is that instead of becoming a lifelong member of a specific group, you've found a way to adapt to all sorts of them. Did any of the beliefs of the other groups contradict those of DAYTOP?

Oh yeah, I have read Dr. Singer's work (I do not recall if I read that one specfically or not but I have read some of her stuff) , a bit of Lifton, as well as that of Hassan, Seigelman/Conway, etc.  Sure.  I am pretty modestly familiar with the cult-ed literature, and always seeking to learn something new in that arena.

As to your second question: that's a big one.  Long story.  Give me time to process and write up an answer for you and will present it tomorrow night.

Say, I'm going to wind down now and read some of this AA stuff.  I hope to meet back with you here tomorrow night though.  Cool?
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 11:48:31 PM »
Sure thing.  See ya tomorrow.  Gnight.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 07:03:12 PM »
Greetings; I hope that all are well this evening.

In response to the question put to me last night:
Quote
What I find fascinating, though is that instead of becoming a lifelong member of a specific group, you’ve found a way to adapt to all sorts of them. Did any of the beliefs of the other groups contradict those of DAYTOP?
Wow, that's a broad question, a lot of ground to cover here.  I shall begin answering the question, by recalling the two of the “DAYTOP values” that most profoundly affected my mentality after I’d left DAYTOP, these ones I really integrated the most into my worldview.  These two are, “You can’t keep it unless you give it away” and “Act as if."

These respective beliefs (Daytopian thinking and religion, especially Bible-based religious thinking IMO) do not, at least on the surface, contradict one another (most Bible-based groups are evangelistic to one degree or another) and the DAYTOP values are quite adaptable to being implemented in any overtly religious context.  I suppose that I contrived a way to adapt them to every situation and group that I was around.  Daytop is in effect a pseudo-religion with its own creed and dogmas etc.  For example:

You can’t keep it unless you give it away: This one threw my sense of boundaries way out of whack.  The best way to help yourself maintain your sobriety is by helping somebody else to do the same.   Or in a churchy group the best way to maintain your salvation is by helping others to attain the same, by "getting people saved."  A good value in and of itself I suppose (keeping it by giving it away, whatever "it" may be), it sounds good enough in principle, but taken literally and to an unhealthy degree this mindset fosters co-dependence and a group mentality, and an unhealthy sense of responsibility for other people’s success or failure.  It’s true that in a sense that “we are all in this together” (in the sense of a global community and all that), that we are interdependent, but it’s also true that I have to be selfish in order to learn how to be selfless in a healthy way.  DAYTOP taught me a lack of balance and a boundary-reducing philosophy in this respect.  You cannot keep yourself unless you give yourself away.  In retrospect, it sounds so insane, but that's what I tried to do, give myself away.

Act as if: Translated as "fake it ‘till you make it."  You are who other people tell you you are, or who they tell you you ought to be.  Need I say more?

Here's a couple more:

Be careful what you ask for you just might get it:  Again, sounds good on the surface, right?  But twisted and taken to an unhealthy extent, it leads to complacency and again, group-dependency, and a lack of confidence and trust in oneself; it leads one to actually fear being fully "recovered."  Makes one afraid of new challenges because this thinking leads to self-doubt and one will always remain in a state of thinking "I'm just trying to sabotage myself again, I'd better ask my counselor what she/he thinks before I make a decision."  It's crippling for a kid to be exposed to this stuff. Be careful if you think that you might want to be fully recovered and an independent, autonomous, fully-functional individual, you just might get it!

To be aware is to be alive  So nebulous; what does this one really mean?   It boils down and leads to what Lifton described as "doctrine over person" and "the dispensing of existence." It's a potent little thought-stopping phrase that is used to abruptly shut down critical thinking.  "To be aware of yourself is the same as being aware of other people telling you who who are, and until you know who you are as defined by the group perception of you the individual, you are not truly alive."  

All of these "DAYTOP values" IMO are, to some degree or another, thought-stopping, critical-thinking reducing nonsense phrases.  

All cults use some type of thought stopping technique. “You can't keep it unless you give it away” is a phrase I heard over and over while I was at DAYTOP and now in hindsight, I realize what a powerful tool that little phrase is, as is the teaching on “Act as if.”  Trying to incorporate all this new information about myself, my feelings, and the world around me was suddenly truncated by the thought-stopping phrase, “You can't keep it unless you give it away.”

"Let DAYTOP do the thinking for you" is all these really mean, and it actually promoted unawareness and an attitude of apathy, an inability to see anything valid outside of the group environment.  Instills a fear of "relapse" through misplaced hypersensitivity to times, places, and circumstances.  Conflates self-awareness and developing critical thinking with "be careful what you ask for" crapola and irrational fear of relapsing.  It actually guarantees relapse once you are out of DAYTOP!

These are just my notes, ramblings, brainstorming.  Am I making sense to anybody?

This I believe is a good start.  Any questions or comments from anyone?
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 08:10:34 PM »
I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts, junkies and crack fiends coming off of the mean streets of NYC, but to apply those same techniques to suburban kids who are experimenting with grass at the local high school, even if it's an outpatient thing, is dangerous at best, and psychologically devastating, crippling at its worst.  

And in all truth, when I was in DAYTOP I met some for-real ex-dope fiends, trust me.  That scared me away from ever getting too mixed up with the "hard stuff."  Again, DAYTOP was not all bad, and there are some positives to my experience, but in the longer run, my final assessment was that it was a toxic environment to put some kid like me into, and that it was nothing but a negative influence on me.  It (the DAYTOP experience) just simply taught me to be fearful and dependent.

Taken literally and as a whole, these "DAYTOP values" are IMO a set of cutesy-sounding, thought-stopping, critical-analysis reducing armchair-psychologist mumbo jumbo.

That place utterly undermined my sense of identity and personal boundaries.  And it has taken me fifteen-odd years to see that.  This message board IS part of my therapy and healing process.  Good God.  These realizations are cathartic, and disturbing for me to process.
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 09:06:34 PM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts

I would tend to disagree.  The results from most of these facilities are temporary.  Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent.  Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?

Quote
junkies and crack fiends coming off of the mean streets of NYC, but to apply those same techniques to suburban kids who are experimenting with grass at the local high school, even if it's an outpatient thing, is dangerous at best, and psychologically devastating, crippling at its worst.

I hear that.  If you tell a kid he's a fuck-up enough, he'll become one, whether he was to begin with or not.

An imaginary conversation with a staff member / other member of the group trusted with confrontation:

staff: you are a fuckup, a drug addict, and you need to admit that to yourself to get better.
inmate: but i'm not.  Just because I smoked pot does not mean I am addicted to it.
staff: you wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem. Your best stinking thinking got you here.
inmate: but that doesn't make sense.  There was no due process or diagnosis.  how do you know I have a problem.
staff: because you're here.  Nobody is here that doesn't have a problem (mystical manipulation).  We know.  We are addicts just like you.
inmate: you don't know me.   I just met you.
staff: an addict knows an addict.
inmate: that doesn't make any sense.
staff: that's because you're thinking too much. Remember. Your best thinking got you here.  You are sick in the head.  You are just in denial.  It's not just a river in ejypt.
inmate: No i'm not in denial.  you people are crazy!
staff: Your denial is just further evidence you are in denial.

And so on and so forth, wearing away resistance.  Eventually the inmate decides to "fake it", becoming part of the group illusion that everybody there is a hopeless addict that will be deadinsaneinjail without the program.  Eventually the faking it turns into "believing it".  Voila!  A normal person is turned into a hopeless addict right then and there.  DId the person have a "problem" to begin with?  Who knows...  but he does now!

Quote
This message board IS part of my therapy and healing process.  Good God.  These realizations are cathartic, and disturbing for me to process.

Yeah.  Fornits can be a head trip of sorts, but I agree.  It's healthy in the long run to think about and process these things.  IMO, the longer you wait the more difficult it is anyway.

I'll respond more to your posts in a bit.  I'm working on a few projects here.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 09:55:33 PM »
Quote
I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?

Well, I did say, "maybe, perhaps" they could be useful to some degree if we are talking about a hard-core addict in genuine denial about the extent of his or her problem.  
Quote

staff: you are a fuckup, a drug addict, and you need to admit that to yourself to get better.
inmate: but i'm not. Just because I smoked pot does not mean I am addicted to it.
staff: you wouldn't be here if you didn't have a problem. Your best stinking thinking got you here.
inmate: but that doesn't make sense. There was no due process or diagnosis. how do you know I have a problem.
staff: because you're here. Nobody is here that doesn't have a problem (mystical manipulation). We know. We are addicts just like you.
inmate: you don't know me. I just met you.
staff: an addict knows an addict.
inmate: that doesn't make any sense.
staff: that's because you're thinking too much. Remember. Your best thinking got you here. You are sick in the head. You are just in denial. It's not just a river in ejypt.
inmate: No i'm not in denial. you people are crazy!
staff: Your denial is just further evidence you are in denial.

Hahahaahha!!!  I had exchanges with "counselors" JUST LIKE THIS in that place.  Almost verbatim.  

You are blowing my mind, man.  You understand, you really seem to understand.

Wow, yes, I did eventually start to "Act as if" and then started to believe in the illusion...they repeatedly taught us that deadinsaneinjail stuff.  Exactly, word for word.  

I never did turn into a street junkie or crack fiend or anything (DAYTOP scared me away from that stuff for the most part) but got to where I was the biggest potsmoker this side of Cheech.  I am not proud of my past using and drinking.

My friends and buddies from there, however...two of them are dead now (one of them was a serious heroin addict who got killed while trying to steal a car), one of them spent a good while hooked on Oxycontin and had to go into another rehab to kick that stuff, another was on crack for a while, some have been in jail or prison, and I cannot think of one who stayed "clean and sober" in the longer run.

Like I said yesterday, two of my best friends are ex-DAYTOPians and they are doing relatively fine now, as am I.  

DAYTOP, then the various cults I mingled with, researched, and the one I was in, and the Army collectively really fucked my head up.  And it started with them.  Damn.

But hell, fifty years ago they would have been giving kids like us electroshocks and lobotomies and shit.  At least now we have psychotherapy.
Quote
Yeah. Fornits can be a head trip of sorts, but I agree. It's healthy in the long run to think about and process these things. IMO, the longer you wait the more difficult it is anyway.
Head trips are a good thing, as far as I am concerned.  Fornits for me is a healthy head trip.  Thanks for your time.
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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2008, 10:07:26 PM »
Quote
   SEKTO wrote:I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts



I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?

Folks who ardently believe they have the solution for addicts all have 1 thing in common - just focus on being sober today and show up tomorrow - you can deal with your 'drug thinking tomorrow here'

rinse - lather - repeat  adinfenitum

Now, I will give these folks credit for trying to help people. However, they're incredibly misinformed to the condition, solution and big picture. They're  insanely microfocused on the AA model. They will never achieve results that equate to a 'cure' or solution.

They need to wipe the drawing board clean. Erase the past and start from scratch. Leave your fuckin egos and wallets at the door.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2008, 10:41:05 PM »
Quote from: "dishdutyfugitive"
Quote
   SEKTO wrote:I mean, I can see some of these B-Mod and more confrontational techniques maybe perhaps being useful and even beneficial when applied to hard-core addicts



I would tend to disagree. The results from most of these facilities are temporary. Even if it worked, (which it doesn't, since the changes are reliant on a controlled milieu), it would still be a process without informed consent. Who would fully and knowingly consent to brainwashing (not that such a thing is even possible, since Singer's first condition is that a person must remain unaware of how he is being changed)?

Folks who ardently believe they have the solution for addicts all have 1 thing in common - just focus on being sober today and show up tomorrow - you can deal with your 'drug thinking tomorrow here'

rinse - lather - repeat  adinfenitum

Now, I will give these folks credit for trying to help people. However, they're incredibly misinformed to the condition, solution and big picture. They're  insanely microfocused on the AA model. They will never achieve results that equate to a 'cure' or solution.

They need to wipe the drawing board clean. Erase the past and start from scratch. Leave your fuckin egos and wallets at the door.


What, in your estimation, is the condition, solution and big picture?
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Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 12:41:19 AM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
What, in your estimation, is the condition, solution and big picture?

There are alternatives to AA that have higher success rates.  Ones that focus on a cure, rather than dependence on a group.
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Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 01:09:19 AM »
A couple more notes/thoughts:

I remember that there were a few kids in the DAYTOP facility where I was who had come out of Straight; remember, I was in DAYTOP from '92 to '94, about a year and a half, and Straight closed in '93 I believe.  One of these kids was involved in some kind of class-action suit against them, I think.  We "inherited" some kids from Straight.  These kids used to tell horror stories of what life in Straight was like.  I am talking physical assaults, forced druggings, use of physical restraints, sleep and food deprivation, really overtly coercive and abusive stuff.  Over-the-top bad things of a physical nature.

To be fair, I never saw or experienced anything like that at all in my experience with DAYTOP.  We were encouraged to yell and scream and verbally abuse one another, they'd use humiliation and shaming, the deadinsaneinjail phobia indoctrination, the memorized and daily-recited DAYTOP Philosophy prayer and DAYTOP Values mantras that warped my sense of personal boundaries and identity...

But even then, there were certain guidelines, standards of behavior that we, the kids and counselors alike were obligated to abide by.  For instance, in the encounter groups, we had to keep both feet on the ground at all times and (as we were kids, minors most of us) were not permitted to use profanity during the group session.  Any kind of physical assault or fighting was never permitted.  There was this one time, though, when I remember (this was in an encounter group) the counselor in charge allowed one kid to walk over and push another kid down, hitting the floor while still in his chair (in the course of a particularly heated exchange of words in which the kid that got pushed was being downright insulting) but he (the counselor) broke it up before it actually came to blows.

So I never witness or experienced any physical or sexual abuse of any kind there, nothing at all like what I heard from kids coming out of Straight.   It was mainly verbal and emotional abuse, degradation, humiliation, and groupthink indoctrination.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 01:29:10 AM by SEKTO »

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 01:10:19 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "SEKTO"
What, in your estimation, is the condition, solution and big picture?

There are alternatives to AA that have higher success rates.

Such as...?

Stuff like this?

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006854.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 01:28:48 AM »
Quote from: "SEKTO"
You can’t keep it unless you give it away: This one threw my sense of boundaries way out of whack.  The best way to help yourself maintain your sobriety is by helping somebody else to do the same.   Or in a churchy group the best way to maintain your salvation is by helping others to attain the same, by "getting people saved."  A good value in and of itself I suppose (keeping it by giving it away, whatever "it" may be), it sounds good enough in principle, but taken literally and to an unhealthy degree this mindset fosters co-dependence and a group mentality, and an unhealthy sense of responsibility for other people’s success or failure.  It’s true that in a sense that “we are all in this together” (in the sense of a global community and all that), that we are interdependent, but it’s also true that I have to be selfish in order to learn how to be selfless in a healthy way.  DAYTOP taught me a lack of balance and a boundary-reducing philosophy in this respect.  You cannot keep yourself unless you give yourself away.  In retrospect, it sounds so insane, but that's what I tried to do, give myself away.

It sounds like they incorporated a bunch of elements into that one philosophy (attack on the self, missionary work, group cohesiveness).  I am guessing that by "helping" others you would be expected to harshly confront them in group?  What did help entail?  Would it be accurate to state that the group was seen as more important than the individual?

Did you ever have to write written reports on yourself or others (some programs call this a "dirt list" or "moral inventory")?  How detailed did these reports get?  Were people expected to rat on others for minor offenses?  For doubting the program?  Was there a sort of "thought crime" you could be accused of?  Did objective criteria for advancement in the program really matter, or was it mostly based on the subjective evaluations of the staff into whether you had the "right" attitude (whether you were agreeing with the group philosophy and taking it to heart)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline SEKTO

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Re: DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 01:40:53 AM »
Quote
It sounds like they incorporated a bunch of elements into that one philosophy (attack on the self, missionary work, group cohesiveness). I am guessing that by "helping" others you would be expected to harshly confront them in group? What did help entail? Would it be accurate to state that the group was seen as more important than the individual?

Did you ever have to write written reports on yourself or others (some programs call this a "dirt list" or "moral inventory")? How detailed did these reports get? Were people expected to rat on others for minor offenses? For doubting the program? Was there a sort of "thought crime" you could be accused of? Did objective criteria for advancement in the program really matter, or was it mostly based on the subjective evaluations of the staff into whether you had the "right" attitude (whether you were agreeing with the group philosophy and taking it to heart)?

We'll save these for tomorrow night, OK?  It's pretty late and I am going to go to sleep soon.  Until next time,

B
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »