Author Topic: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"  (Read 2985 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2008, 09:15:16 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
@ yes on 5,

I saw the commercials on TV and immediately got a sick felling in my gut. I think I see a pattern of deception once again.

I would rather be placed in any prison before going through what I did in the program.

We need a proposition ending prison time for drug use or possession first. Then we should scientifically evaluate how best to handle the prison problem. The real criminals are the white collar ass-hats who dictate policies to ruin people because they self-medicate.

I'm sorry, but if you're not hurting anybody but yourself, I don't care. No jail needed, no treatment, just leave people alone so they can destroy themselves or crawl out of the abyss that some of us have when they are ready. The problem is, the abyss I crawled out of was caused by this so-called "treatment". We eventually change our behavior because we see a reason to do so and it takes that learning to really make the change.

 I don't use any drugs but I know many people that have been using drugs since college and live very productive lives. That's 15 years of an illegal activity that we are supposed to believe is a scourge to our society? I gotta tell ya, these people have high paying jobs and do very well in life, I don't see the criminal connection. Also, alcohol is a drug and it's legal. I know very few people who don't drink alcohol but very very few that do don't have anything that I would consider a drinking problem. But more importantly, drug laws do not stop people from using drugs. Just like prohibition didn't stop drinking, so why do we have these laws that transform normal people into criminals?

I think the sociopaths at the top know that drug use is a normal human event and have successfully influenced public opinion that it is seen as a criminal behavior. They benefit by making money off of the criminals and poor souls who are just doing what is probably natural in our environment.

Then think about legal drugs and big pharma and you can nail down what is really going on. Money and control over the masses. Psyche meds are WAY more dangerous than street drugs but prescribed like candy, while the dangers are covered up.

but wdo you know they are trying to create another cult-gulag ? Maybe they are trying ot recreate a legitimate "treatment" program. (legitimate in that they don't psychologically, physically, or mentally  abuse their inmates besides imprisoning them)
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2008, 09:37:47 PM »
Quote from: "YES ON 5"
Would you rather people go to jail

Having been through forced "treatment" for a nonexistant problem like many others here, I might have actually preferred that jail to "treatment", actually.  At least there they wouldn't have been invasively trying to modify my existing view of reality and causality.  Give people an option to get "treatment"?  Why not...  but force it?  Never.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2008, 09:42:48 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
Psyche meds are WAY more dangerous than street drugs but prescribed like candy, while the dangers are covered up.

Be careful where you get your information on that.  There is a lot of false information being put out on that subject by CCHR (a Scientology front group) among many others. Scientology views Psychiatry as "evil" (yes, really) and has been pushing that view on the public for a long time.  That being said, I would tend to agree that there are some street drugs (such as marijuana) which, when taken in a manner other than smoking, are by and large safer than the vast majority of prescription medicaiton.
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Offline wdtony

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 09:43:58 PM »
survivor wrote:
but wdo you know they are trying to create another cult-gulag ? Maybe they are trying ot recreate a legitimate "treatment" program. (legitimate in that they don't psychologically, physically, or mentally abuse their inmates besides imprisoning them)


and I say: Highly doubtful.  the whole "how do you know" shit is starting to piss me off. No one knew I was being tortured in KHK but it sure as hell happened. If there is a "possibility" for abuse, there needs to be a change. There definitely is a possibility here.

And by the way, jail is soooooo much better than a program. By leaps and bounds, it's better.
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Offline wdtony

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2008, 09:49:58 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "wdtony"
Psyche meds are WAY more dangerous than street drugs but prescribed like candy, while the dangers are covered up.

Be careful where you get your information on that.  There is a lot of false information being put out on that subject by CCHR (a Scientology front group) among many others. Scientology views Psychiatry as "evil" (yes, really) and has been pushing that view on the public for a long time.  That being said, I would tend to agree that there are some street drugs (such as marijuana) which, when taken in a manner other than smoking, are by and large safer than the vast majority of prescription medicaiton.

I hear ya, but I was nearly killed by a psyche-med and I have done a tremendous amount of research on neurotransmitters and the brain as it pertains to psychiatric medications. I have also talked to many who have lived through the adverse reactions from these meds and it is truly horrific. The DSM-4 might as well be Dianetics at this point.

And I know Scientology is against psychiatry-(APA). For me it is a win-win. Kinda like a Sue Scheff vs. WWASPS kinda thing. Although I think some psychiatrists are good compared to the failed ideology of Scientology.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2008, 09:50:45 PM »
Quote from: "survivor"
but wdo you know they are trying to create another cult-gulag ? Maybe they are trying ot recreate a legitimate "treatment" program. (legitimate in that they don't psychologically, physically, or mentally  abuse their inmates besides imprisoning them)

I'll let Charles Bufe elaborate on AA in an institutional setting:

http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chaptr10.htm

Changing how people think without their knowledge or consent is wrong.  State mandated religious conversion is wrong and unconstitutional.  Courts have upheld this again and again.

Even if it worked, it still wouldn't be ethical for the above reasons, but it doesn't work, tragically, and often causes more harm than good (though those who are in it swear by it, in the same way Scientologists swear by their cultic voodoo hoodoo).  If anectodal evidence of "OMG  it saved my life" was backed up by hard facts, maybe there would be some merit to it, but the facts show, AA has a horrendous sucess rate, often worse than no treatment at all, lending credence to the stance that people should be left alone to use or abuse substances if they choose to.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2008, 09:54:29 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
I hear ya, but I was nearly killed by a psyche-med and I have done a tremendous amount of research on neurotransmitters and the brain as it pertains to psychiatric medications.
Yeah, but you have to admit, there is a difference between psychiatry itself and the pharma industry.  Individual psychiatrists generally try to do the right thing but are affected by marketing like anybody else.  A shrink put me on Ambien once.  Very bad experience.  It stayed in my system too long and affected my depth perception during the day (among other side effects).  Clearly with many drugs there should be a lot more testing, but there are drugs that work as advertised and have changed many lives for the better.
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Offline wdtony

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2008, 10:09:32 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "wdtony"
I hear ya, but I was nearly killed by a psyche-med and I have done a tremendous amount of research on neurotransmitters and the brain as it pertains to psychiatric medications.
Yeah, but you have to admit, there is a difference between psychiatry itself and the pharma industry.  Individual psychiatrists generally try to do the right thing but are affected by marketing like anybody else.  A shrink put me on Ambien once.  Very bad experience.  It stayed in my system too long and affected my depth perception during the day (among other side effects).  Clearly with many drugs there should be a lot more testing, but there are drugs that work as advertised and have changed many lives for the better.

I can't argue with that. Peter Breggin is an affluent Psychiatrist and is hell-bent against Big Pharma. Unfortunately he has explained how Big Pharma has paid for the APA's trips, meals, conferences, et-cetra. I think psychatry could be great if it wasn't influenced by the Pharmaceutical industry.

As far as some good meds helping some, I do believe that. I have seen it and experienced it myself. It is difficult to weigh the pros and cons when information is so constricted by whomever has a vested interest. When shit like ODD starts becoming mainstream accepted, I get nervous because I just don't believe it is a real condition. I mean, I have been diagnosed (at different times) with drug and alcohol addiction, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, depression and panic disorder. I have also been diagnosed as a normal person with no indication of any mental illness. How does this jive? Who is right? All different specialists and doctors but always a different diagnosis and different brain drug. Diagnoses are screwy.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2008, 10:25:17 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "wdtony"
I hear ya, but I was nearly killed by a psyche-med and I have done a tremendous amount of research on neurotransmitters and the brain as it pertains to psychiatric medications.
Yeah, but you have to admit, there is a difference between psychiatry itself and the pharma industry.  Individual psychiatrists generally try to do the right thing but are affected by marketing like anybody else.  A shrink put me on Ambien once.  Very bad experience.  It stayed in my system too long and affected my depth perception during the day (among other side effects).  Clearly with many drugs there should be a lot more testing, but there are drugs that work as advertised and have changed many lives for the better.

I can't argue with that. Peter Breggin is an affluent Psychiatrist and is hell-bent against Big Pharma. Unfortunately he has explained how Big Pharma has paid for the APA's trips, meals, conferences, et-cetra. I think psychatry could be great if it wasn't influenced by the Pharmaceutical industry.

Well.  A good blow to decreasing that grip would be to deregulate drugs so that psychiartists could prescribe alternatives (such as marijuana) where they felt it was appropriate.  As Marijuana has so many uses, it could dramatically affect pharma's exclusive grip on treatment.  It's one of the reasons I feel it's still illegal.  Pharma wants a monopoly.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2008, 10:26:58 PM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
Diagnoses are screwy.

That's for sure.  Often they're made in haste, and without sufficient knowledge of a particular person.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2008, 11:19:09 PM »
Ok, let's go back in our minds to a saner time before anyone ever seriously considered the idea that government should tell us what foods we eat and what drugs we put into our bodies. This would have to be prior to the time of Jefferson, who said "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." And I think he was right.

Back in the good old daze, the Rx symbol was shorthand for "Recipe" If you thought someone was wise and learned enough to give you good advice on what to do for your health, you'd trade currency or whatever else for their advice and they might write down the instructions as a prescription for an apothecary to follow to put it together for you. That was the benchmark. Does anybody seriously think that this or any government is wise, honest or even learned enough to tell you what to put into your body?

I'm trying to find a once popular drug policy reform quote. Can't remember who said this, but he was a professor and he asked his class a couple of questions:
  • How many of you have smoked pot (many)
  • How many went through treatment to quit (few)
  • How many of you believe that smoking pot will destroy your life? (many)

These were graduate students, if I'm not mistaken. No slouches. The evidence of their having achieved well for themselves despite having smoked pot was undeniable. And yet they didn't see it. The professor described it as not logical conclusion but deep seated religious indoctrination.

I'll give you another example which you can replicate easily. Go into any bar on football night. Tell somebody about Mark Stepnoski having become president of Texas NORML the day after he retired and having gone public with the open secret that all-star level performing athletes prefer pot to Rx drugs for their many aches, pains and the pressures of celebrity. Every time, you'll have some fool with a beer in his hand blabbering about how bad an example people like that set for the chiiiiiiiildren. You can go ahead and point out the athletes' level of performance, dedication and accomplishment and that the drugs they choose to achieve that evidently fail to fuck them up. No matter. If you press the point, you may well find yourself running for the door under threat of physical violence from an angry mob of drunken drug war zombies.

Point is, "treatment or incarceration" is a false dichotomy. Just exactly the same as we all faced while in the program; go along or get beat down. The reality was, is and ever shall be that our  only choices were to get beat down physically or suck it up and get our minds fucked up; either way we're getting fucked up!

If I had it to do over again, I'd have taken a stand at the time and maybe gotten through  it with my mind a little more intact. I won't fall for it again.
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Offline psy

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 12:18:57 AM »
There are some of your posts, Ginger, that i'd just like to frame.
 :notworthy:
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2008, 04:12:04 AM »
Quote from: "wdtony"
survivor wrote:
but wdo you know they are trying to create another cult-gulag ? Maybe they are trying ot recreate a legitimate "treatment" program. (legitimate in that they don't psychologically, physically, or mentally abuse their inmates besides imprisoning them)


and I say: Highly doubtful.  the whole "how do you know" shit is starting to piss me off. No one knew I was being tortured in KHK but it sure as hell happened. If there is a "possibility" for abuse, there needs to be a change. There definitely is a possibility here.
.

I don't know enough about it, maybe the legislation is written in a way that the places they set up don't have oversight and have a high danger of abuse, but there is a difference between a "drug treatment program" and a "program." I am against forced treatment and imprisonment for drug use. That said, not all treatment places, or treatment, especially court mandated treatment, are programs. Maybe treatment could be going to meetings once a week or meeting with a shrink. But yes, "treatment or prison" is a false dichotomy, made more absurd because many of the people forced into "treatment" won't be drug addicts, just drug users or sellers.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2008, 04:28:29 AM »
The CYA, or California Youth Authority, isn't called Cover Your Ass without a damn good reason. Now don't get me wrong as I'm not advocating for these treatment duckfarms, but if I had a choice I'd take the treatment duckfarm over some kiddie lockdown in the state of California anyday.

My thoughts on this make me wonder why they are once again treating the symptom rather than the disease. What is causing high crime rates amongst kids in California anyway?

Are they even as high as people are being lead to believe?

Beats the hell out of me, but I do know that I'd rather see the money funneled into after school programs like marching band, chess club, football, and god help me and I shudder as I say this but even basketball. (Nothing personal I just hate basketball the sport is retarded)

Now to take it another level what blows my mind is the ideology that kids are soooooo very dangerous that they have to be ripped out of their neighborhood and hurled into a drug treatment program to get them off the crack.

*coughs.. wrap around program please...

Seems to me there are plenty of other ways to address the problem, if the problem even exists in such horrifying numbers, that bouncing kids into drug programs shouldn't even be a choice.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Cali Prop. 5: Forced State-run "Treatment for kids"
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2008, 05:05:41 AM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
The CYA, or California Youth Authority, isn't called Cover Your Ass without a damn good reason. Now don't get me wrong as I'm not advocating for these treatment duckfarms, but if I had a choice I'd take the treatment duckfarm over some kiddie lockdown in the state of California anyday.

My thoughts on this make me wonder why they are once again treating the symptom rather than the disease. What is causing high crime rates amongst kids in California anyway?

Are they even as high as people are being lead to believe?

Beats the hell out of me, but I do know that I'd rather see the money funneled into after school programs like marching band, chess club, football, and god help me and I shudder as I say this but even basketball. (Nothing personal I just hate basketball the sport is retarded)

Now to take it another level what blows my mind is the ideology that kids are soooooo very dangerous that they have to be ripped out of their neighborhood and hurled into a drug treatment program to get them off the crack.

*coughs.. wrap around program please...

Seems to me there are plenty of other ways to address the problem, if the problem even exists in such horrifying numbers, that bouncing kids into drug programs shouldn't even be a choice.

the only reason kids have problems if not because they are impoverished is because their parents are abusive. If you want to help "problem kids" empower them to the point they are not dependant on their wretched parents. IMproved foster care, force absuive parents to bankroll their kids--away from home. Something like that. But middle class and working class peoples don't like the idea of legislation being passed to protect kids from them.
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