Author Topic: A Little From Column A, A Little From Column B  (Read 770 times)

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Offline ajax13

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A Little From Column A, A Little From Column B
« on: July 17, 2008, 04:24:32 PM »
While it is quite certain that a man who worked in Miller Newton's child prison and attempted to head a branch of this prison in Calgary has some type of personality disorder, the exact nature of that disorder is debatable.
Perhaps this could help shed some light on the issue:
What is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath?
In: Narcissism  [Edit]

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While all of the information here is very interesting please do not attempt to diagnose any one with these conditions yourself! NPD is incredibly difficult to diagnose correctly and so assuming that your problems with an abusive partner cannot be healed or are incurable is dangerous and could cost you more than you bargain for. Please get advice before trying to decide what disorder your partner might have or believing that they are incurable!

Kim Cooper author of "Back from the Looking Glass" - Living with the Personality Disorder that Causes Abuse.


Answer
Simply put, the narcissist lacks proper ego functioning (lacks a rigid sense of self) while the sociopath lacks a superego (lacks a conscience).

Enhance this answer: malignant narcissism vs. Psychopathy. The malignant narcissist incorporates antisocial and paranoid features. But the malignant narcissist can incorporate values, by creating their own superego. Therefore the malignant narcissist has an imaginary superego controlling the impulses of the (Id). This is done because the ego of the malignant narcissist needs the outside world to control its rigid sense of self while the psychopath does not.

The antisocial lacks regard for society and others, while the narcissist disregards others for selfish purposes, and may also disregard societal rules for the same reason. The traits of an antisocial and a narcissist also frequently overlap, but I've found that individuals can be one or the other as well. Although the psychopath seems to be a more severe form of both malignant narcissism and an antisocial personality (my take is that the psychopath differs from the APD itself).

For a more complete answer to, go to: http://www.ultimate-self.com/villains/ Or the bottom of the page.


Answer

Good answer below.

I would add, to confuse matters, that psychopaths are not to be equated with sociopaths -- psychopaths are the most severe of the psychopaths and have their own psychopathological profiles. I would also add that there is a subcategory of narcissists called "malignant narcissists" that to some extent merge the antisocials and the narcissists. However, for the most part, the answer below is right on the money.




Answer
Psychopaths or Sociopaths are the old names for antisocial PD. The line between NPD and AsPD is very thin. AsPD may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of NPD.

The important differences between narcissism and the antisocial personality disorder are:

Inability or unwillingness to control impulses (AsPD);

Enhanced lack of empathy on the part of the AsPD;

Inability to form relationships, not even narcissistically twisted relationships, with other humans;

Total disregard for society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties.

As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil ? they lack the intention to cause harm. As Millon notes, certain narcissists "incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt." (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000)

Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of their fellow humans. Their abuse of others is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's.

More about the relationships between pathological narcissism and other personality disorders here:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq15.html

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq82.html


Answer
In my opinion, they are distinctly different disorders.

For one thing, they have totally different focus:

NPD specifically manifests as a pathological craving for attention. Socio/psychopathy manifests as a pathological disregard for anything but self gratification.

To compare the two would be rather like comparing a goal with a methodology.

Though the two conditions could easily co-exist in the same individual.

When those with NPD are "indifferent, callous and careless," surely this is a by-product of their driving need for attention to which all else is sacrificed. The Sociopath, however, is indifferent, callous and careless OF HIS NATURE, which FACILITATES the destructive pursuit of his personal choice of self gratification.

Of course, at the end of the day, what is important is not what we CALL these conditions, but rather what they actually are.


Answer
Put simply - Sociopaths do not have a conscience. Narcissists do.


Answer
The way I heard it explained once was that a sociopath cannot empathize, cannot feel anyone else's feelings, but he doesn't feel his own either. A narcissist feels his own feelings deeply, but has an absolute inability to feel anyone else's, to have empathy for anyone else.


Answer
After much reading and knowing a few, this is my opinion.

Narcissist wolf says to everyone: "I'm a sheep, I'm a sheep, I'm in the sheep club. The sheep are the best. Those wolves are terrible. You have to be a special sheep to be in the high-wool club like me. If you don't believe I'm a sheep then you are calling me a liar. I was only eating meat because my boss made me do it. I was howling at the moon because you made me angry. I have always been a sheep. You are paranoid, I don't have canine teeth. You are imaginging it. I'm a sheep. I won best sheep of the year award. We have to be on the look out for SueTarget. She's a wolf in sheeps' clothing. I am the one that did all the work. SueTarget messed it all up. SueTargets's fur looks fake. I'm the biggest sheep so I should be the boss. I have every right to punish SueTarget and eat her. It will be good for her, and teach her a lesson. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for the team. I have to be the enforcer here and eat bad sheeps to help keep society clean. I used to be a vegetarian but because all these lazy sheep won't do anything, I am forced into keeping order and forced into being the bad guy and have to do all the eating of sheep."

Sociopath wolf says: "Become the sheep. Believe you are the sheep. Keep the wolf hidden. Don't act like a narcissist and don't try to "talk your way". Become the sheep. Do sheep things. Behave like sheep. No one will see the wolf. Baa baa baa. Eat grass for a while. Give up meat for a while. Tell the sheep things that will make them feel good about themselves. Gain their trust. Be humble. Make them the center of attention. Get them to lower their defenses. Tell them you lost your teeth in a car accident and your parents could only afford wolf-teeth replacements. Keep past a secret so they don't research. Let them do all the talking. Then when the time is right, devour! It is worth the sacrifice and the wait. Then on a polygraph when they ask if I am a sheep, I will have all the sheep memories because I became a sheep. I have memories of eating grass and living like a sheep. I'm telling the truth."

The narcissist have only VERBAL claims that they are good. The sociopath is TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE!


Answer
They both warp reality to suit their needs. Narcissist are all about image and ego. They will say anything (lie) to make them sound good for the moment, even if it contradicts what they said the day before. The malignant narcissist goes a step further and devalues, criticizes and nitpicks other people. A narcissist is lazy. They are all mouth. They get others to do their work. They steal the credit. If anything goes wrong, they always have a scapegoat ready to blame. This is why they always work in teams and are committeeholics. They sit back and issue orders while everyone else is doing all the work. Narcissist never work alone, because if they did, then they would actually have to work. A narcissist only exist in the present. They have gaps in their memory and don't know what they did yesterday (it was a lie, and lies don't have real memories attached). They also can't plan for the future. A sociopath is an extreme narcissist with a sadistic, jealous, vindictive dark side. They have a need to hurt people. They will rationalize and justify getting revenge on people. They are lynch mobs. They don't communicate and talk out problems, but have a NEED to believe other's are malicious so that they don't have to feel guilty when they get revenge. I grew up with a sociopath and live with a narcissist and have narcissit in-laws.

A sociopath and narcissist seem to have the same, or similar, chemical imbalance. They are not able to empathize. Emotionally stunted, agressive, self-centered, vain, argumentative, impulsive, volatile, and can be capable of being violent. I think they share the same chemical imbalance as well as similar traits. I don't believe that environment has anything to do with becoming either, except to, maybe, give them certain personality characteristics. The movie, "The Bad Seed" shows that, and whoever made the movie had to have had similar experiences. If you agree with me please answer. I will contact you.


Comment
At the risk of being a bore I must confess that I find the difference very hard to grasp, especially as it appears that all sociopaths are also narcissists but not the other way round. The last answer includes the comment:

"A sociopath is an extreme narcissist with a sadistic, jealous, vindictive dark side. They have a need to hurt people."

The plain meaning of this is that a sociopath is a certain type of narcissist. Is this correct or have I misunderstood something?

Re "Comment"

I think you hit the nail on the head. An everyday garden variety Narcissist just hurts those who happen to come along. A Sociopath is an evolved Narcissist - he goes out of his way to find people to hurt.


Answer
I think it is misleading to assume there are hard, bright lines between categories. People do not come in boxes. All human behavior exists on a three-dimensional continuum with the following axes: Empowered-Unempowered, Loving-Unloving, and Wise-Unwise; with various spectra of physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual ailments arching through the Unempowered-Unloving-Unwise territories.

Nevertheless, how's this: Suppose we define the differences between and among benign narcissists, malignant narcissists, and sociopaths by what gives them their rush:

A sociopath gloats over the pain he creates, because it means he is powerful. A malignant narcissist glories in the service she compels and the turf she marks, because it means she is important. A benign narcissist basks in the admiration he receives, because it means he is valuable. (That is, beloved, talented, cool, fill in blank.)

So:

If you need constant reassurance that you are valuable, you are a benign narcissist. If you need constant reassurance that you are important, you are a malignant narcissist. If you need constant reassurance that you are powerful, you are a sociopath.

If this analysis is correct, then obviously an individual could be a little of all three, needing reassurance that he is valuable, important, and powerful; because at any moment he could be feeling worthless and/or irrelevant and/or helpless. Someone might be at one point along the spectrum this week and at another point next week.

I think another defining difference is laziness. A malignant narcissist is terminally lazy,doing all his work with his mouth, whereas a benign narcissist will often actually strive to be genuinely valuable, and a sociopath can put inexorable and meticulous effort into setting up his victim.

Here's a characteristic all three share: Not a one of them gives a damn about the potential negative effects upon others of their self-seeking behavior. The sociopath's stance is: "I want what I want, and somebody else gets to pay for it. Don't get in my way. But then, you don't have the right to escape, and once you're in my headlights I'll chase you all over the road until I get you." The malignant narcissist's stance is: "I want what I want, and somebody else gets to pay for it. Don't get in my way. When I run over you, I'm going to be pissed off if you scratch my paint." The benign narcissist's stance is: "I want what I want, and I'll pay for it--but don't get in my way. If I accidentally happen to run over you, I'm just going to wonder what that bump was."

The person who posted here about the two varieties of Wolves in Sheep's Clothing hit the nail bang on the head. Aedhwilla


Also:

NARCISSISTS cannot feel EMPATHY for others, but other than that, they DO HAVE THE FULL RANGE OF EMOTIONS; they can even love others, but in a domineering and self-centered way.

Psychopaths or sociopaths have NO EMPATHY as well as ABNORMALLY BLUNTED EMOTIONS; because of this, some experts call narcissists "halfway sociopathic".

However, other researchers call narcissists "secondary psychopaths" and true psychopaths "primary psychopaths".

Narcissists might not have a chronically underaroused cerebral cortex; psychopaths do.



Answer
WOW !!! the pstings above are really impressive and in depth. Makes you really think. So let me summarize by adding that narcissists might utilize lying, cheating, stealing and abusing to suit thier needs (create a self image) without really thinking through what it does to others. Whilst sociopaths will become the lie, will do the evil deeds for its own sake to hurt others on pourpose for the sheer joy of it. The abuse gives sociapath the control he craves.

It almost seems the sociopath is more self aware yet doesnt care.

The narcisssit has no self to be aware of so is incapable of caring.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: A Little From Column A, A Little From Column B
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 04:38:50 PM »
I believe the correct term is Malignant Narcissism.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissi ... ssism.html


  Anatomy Of Malignant Narcissism


    In 1970, Otto Kernberg coined the term, "malignant narcissism"; he pointed out that the antisocial personality was fundamentally narcissistic and without morality. Malignant narcissism includes a sadistic element, creating, in essence, a sadistic psychopath. In this essay, "malignant narcissism" and psychopathy are employed interchangeably.

    Imagine, as an abuse survivor of someone with malignant narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder, giving your life over to a psychopath, and doing it with trust and a firm belief in his authority. What if said psychopathic conman, was advising victims? It seems absurd, that an abuser would advise the abused. It seems even more absurd, that the abused would take the advice to heart. Yet it happened to me, till I got wise to it and learned more about this disorder, and its largely superficial resemblance to narcissistic personality disorder, or garden variety "narcissism".

    Psychopaths are known to be grandiose, to distort reality, to be contemptuous of human beings, and to be completely without conscience . To ask such a malignant narcissist for advice is to suffer life consequences. Are his words really full of "truth" and "insight" and "care" for the victims?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »