Open Meeting

[SurvivorEMSR]

I attended open meeting at PFC this past friday night. From what I see, there are a lot of changes in progress. Obviously I wasn't able to see a lot, but I did see that clients are allowed to wear shoes, they are not constantly forced to sit up, and I didn't notice any "arming" taking place. Clients are also allowed to go outside for different amounts of time based on the level they are on. I believe it goes something like one hour for first level, two for second and three for third. I am also under the assumption that newcomers are no longer watched in the bathroom. These seem like reasonable changes to me, and although I still think much needs to be changed, it is an improvement.

From the newcomer talks and the parent talks I heard, it is still quite apparent to me that the clients/parents are put under the assumption that the kids need serious drug treatment, and Pathway is the "cure" for their problem. The newcomer talks are the same. Clients talk about a past incident involving drugs, how they felt then, and how they feel now. From the limited amount of talks I heard, I would say that the problems expressed could be problems of any teenager. I won't get specific on what was discussed, but whether or not these kids are drug addicts can definitely not be determined by the trivial "drug incidents" they explained. I was not very pleased to hear clients singing the same humiliating songs upon entrance and dismissal.

Although I didn't know many people at open meeting, the people I did know and talked to all asked me questions about how I was doing, and when I answered that I was making out just fine, I received skeptical looks and comments. One parent asked me if I was staying out of trouble, and when I responded "yes" he replied, "no you're not." This combined with the messages I get from PFC supporters lead me to believe that there are a lot of un-true rumors circulating around about how bad my life is going. This, of course, is not much different than when I was a client. Anyone who stopped attending Pathway or didn't graduate or complete aftercare was automatically unhealthy and dangerous.

There are also fewer clients than I have ever seen at Pathway. I believe I counted about five girls and maybe ten guys. About one third of these fifteen clients are fifth phasers and should be gone soon leaving only ten clients. I don't believe I have ever seen less than thirty or thirty-five clients at one time, so this leads me to believe that Pathway could be in trouble.

I have some quick questions to ask of you guys, and I want your opinions on them. Do you believe that there is no helping PFC, or is there some hope that it may turn out to be a positive program? If it was just thought of as a program to help struggling teens instead of "an intensive drug rehab," could it be a helpful place? Should our goal be to shut Pathway down indefinitely or just to reform it? What if there was a chance that PFC would actually be open to our suggestions and change to what we see fit? It would seem to me that if they are already making extreme changes because of what we disagree with, they might make further changes based somewhat on our suggestions; this seems especially true if they are struggling financially. Am I dreaming here or not?

To share a little bit more of my personal feelings, the knots I felt in my stomach during my visit were the worst I have ever had. I'm glad that clients aren't being put through exactly the same things I was, but should PFC still have to answer for what myself and many others went through? I'm not sure, and a little confused, so I would like some suggestions if that's all right.

Other than that, I can't think of much more to say. Thank you for being here. EMSR

[Anonymous]

Having been at the same open PFC Meeting, I believe that the writer has some other problems than just PFC's method of treatment.  I have not encountered any substance abuse program, or any treatment program that does not have flaws.  The question is:  Can a program with flaws still  have merit?  Can it still help adolescents who have substance abuse problems, and who have been out of control?  Of course.  
the measure of a program is of course its results, which at PFC are very good, but also whether it is able to continually look at itself, and institute changes that are good for the clients and clinically sound.  PFC does this.
Of course PFC does not work for everybody.  Can you name any program for any disorder that does?  That is not the point. If the program can help a significant number of adolescents, it is worthwhile.  Let's remember the national average for successful treatment of substance abuse is less than 10%.  PFC's rate is far above that.

[SurvivorEMSR]

What about the clients who DON'T have substance abuse problems? What you are saying is that Pathway's methods are sound, because Pathway may help some while misleading and hurting others. I think your argument stinks! You can't just look at the people who were helped by Pathway. Don't you see that? How many people have to suffer in order to help your precious few? What kind of flaws are you talking about? The flaws that I see in PFC are very serious. I know many people that will say PFC hurt them more than it helped them. On the other hand, I'm sure there are many people who are greatful to Pathway. Where do you draw the line?  

I'm getting very frustrated with you people. Why do you have to mention things like, "I believe the writer has other problems than just PFC's method of treatment." Can't you respond to my argument in a civilized way? Just the other day I asked that people not bash on others regardless of whether or not they are PFC supporters, but maybe that's the only thing you understand.

If you haven't noticed, I have been trying to give PFC somewhat of a chance and keep an open mind, but that doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere but insulted. I have been told by very significant people at Pathway that myself and the people on this site have affected Pathway's new change in rules, and we could have a very significant say in whether or not PFC stays open. I have been contacted by MANY PEOPLE saying that I should press charges against PFC for yes, "other problems I have with Pathway." These things include laws that were broken at PFC and civil rights that were taken away from me. I chose not to take legal action, because part of me wants to believe there is some hope for Pathway, but from listening to you, I am not so sure. You talk about PFC's success rate, but where do you get this information? I am a former client who knows other former clients, and NONE OF US HAVE EVER BEEN CONTACTED BY PATHWAY. Does Pathway just count the people who continue to return to PFC?

Some people on this site believe that Pathway needs to be done away with regardless of what changes are made. That isn't necessarily my opinion, but you don't see them bashing on me. Although I don't appreciate your insults, I do respect your opinion, and I hope YOU try to keep an open mind. EMSR

[Anonymous]

I want to commend you EMSR for going to that open meeting and reporting your observations. To comment on what you wrote earlier regarding what I think should happen to PFC, I think the following:

"Do you believe that there is no helping PFC, or is there some hope that it may turn out to be a positive program?"

NO, I don't think there is any helping a cult, not one that uses mind raping methods like cutting off young people from their families, putting them in unsafe situations such as confessionals amongst other teens discussing inappropriate things regardless if they are true or not. I don't think cults like PFC that tell young people that it's a "privilege" to see their parents, or they don't "deserve" this or that, I think that rips right in to a healthy psyche and begins to destroy it. I think that kids (all human beings for that matter) should be able to go to the bathroom by themselves unsupervised. I don't think anyone has the right to tell you who your friends should be, or who you should hang out with, people can grow up and change friends if they need to without the help of a cult or PFC in this case.

"If it was just thought of as a program to help struggling teens instead of "an intensive drug rehab," could it be a helpful place?"

NO, it's neither, it's a place that uses sickening, unproven, & dangerously experimental methods to take young people with troubles and make them even worse for years down the road. I am sure that PFC would love our society to accept them as a 'legitimate place that cares (puke), but I don't think that is likely, apparently they have less minds in their to rape thank God.

"Should our goal be to shut Pathway down indefinitely or just to reform it?"

Shut it down and sue the shit out of your former tormenters, and keep exposing all these Straight INC spin-offs still in operation.

"What if there was a chance that PFC would actually be open to our suggestions and change to what we see fit? It would seem to me that if they are already making extreme changes because of what we disagree with, they might make further changes based somewhat on our suggestions; this seems especially true if they are struggling financially. Am I dreaming here or not?"

Sorry EMSR, but you are dreaming ~ and I say that with all due respect for you. They are only making changes because they are afraid of lawsuits. They know they are only as good as their cult, and it requires many ingredients of abuse in order to keep their cult PFC alive.

"What about the clients who DON'T have substance abuse problems?"

Thank you EMSR, I was in Straight INC 20 years ago and I never had a "substance abuse problem" either, thank you for saying that on behalf of those of us that these cults ripped apart and apparently still are.

"What you are saying is that Pathway's methods are sound, because Pathway may help some while misleading and hurting others. I think your argument stinks! You can't just look at the people who were helped by Pathway. Don't you see that?"

LOL, did I forget to mention that I "graduated" Straight INC too? Straight claimed their methods were "sound" as well. They were still psychologically mind fucking then as they do now, the same basic legs that make the mind rapists table stand are STILL in place.

"How many people have to suffer in order to help your precious few? What kind of flaws are you talking about? The flaws that I see in PFC are very serious."

EMSR, your writer will never answer that question, he (or she) doesn't care about that 'outsider' that was either pulled or ran away, 18 and out of their reach. I was one of their victims, I am a survivor now. The biggest flaw I think they committed is that now they have a population explosion of people like me to deal with. We are finding these sites and wanting to go after these bastards and close them down for good.

"I'm getting very frustrated with you people. Why do you have to mention things like, "I believe the writer has other problems than just PFC's method of treatment." Can't you respond to my argument in a civilized way?"

EMSR, to borrow a quote from a famous film "stupid is as stupid does." ~ and that really seems to fit here. That writer is making some silly, ridiculous (and stupid) attempt to discredit your argument. Desperate people (like they seem to be at PFC these days) tend to grab for anything when their mind rapist ship is taking on water and about to sink.

They can attack-attack-attack here all they want, that doesn't go over to well in court when they are faced with abuse charges, just ask Miller Newton that these days, years now since the KIDS program (another Straight INC off-shoot) was shut down:

http://thestraights.com/articles/lulu.htm

[METALGOD8]

Well, EMSR, I suppose your stomach has recovered since the open meeting. Just hearing those 2 words are enough to make mine twitch a little.
I don't know if they let you talk to 1st phasers there. Did you try? If you had, then you could have gotten a lot more information about what they do. What I like to hear is that the clients are thinning out a bit now. Seems like people are learning what they are all about and making better choices for helping their children. Without clients, it is hard to treat them, right?  :smokin:

[Anonymous]

EMSR-
In response to the following:
"From the newcomer talks and the parent talks I heard, it is still quite apparent to me that the clients/parents are put under the assumption that the kids need serious drug treatment, and Pathway is the "cure" for their problem."

I was also in attendance at last Friday night's open meeting.  I see no basis from the newcomer talks and parent talks that PFC places assumption that the clients need serious drug treatment.  No one mentioned that PFC was the cure for anything.  What I heard were some clients who were sharing past incidents about their using and parents who were proud of their children for earning higher levels, and relieved that their child was no longer using drugs since entering treatment.  That is not thanks to PFC, it is realistically the clients choice to use or not.  Clients are not restrained when trying to run as they may have been in the past.  Any client can walk out the door.  Please explain the above mentioned quote some more.  Maybe I missed something Friday night.
Thanks

[Anonymous]

I think there has been at least ten pulls or relapses from Pathway in the last year. What do you think of Pathway taking back a client who stayed over two years, again.  Don't you think they should say that maybe the client needs other treatment instead?  Maybe instead of just the client doing a mike talk about a past incident that they drugged , maybe the parents should also "Make Amends" for a past incident where they wronged their child. and do this in front of the whole group! Why not cut out the three verses at the end open program, you know the one about "That's how it is with Gods' love". Also saying love ya to everyone somehow diminishes the phrase to meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Of course admitting you are powerless and that a higher power(PATHWAY) would restore you to sanity and that you have all these defects and horrible morals, and you have to write a horribly boring MI everyday about how powerless you are, geez I wonder why anyone would relapse.  Lets not try having them write a journal about WHY they are having a struggle and reaching back into their history to face that horrible rage, anger, jealousy,wanting to die feelings and really understand WHY they numb themselves.  These MI's are ridiculous and stupid.

[SurvivorEMSR]

On 2003-07-20 21:13:00, Anonymous wrote:


I was also in attendance at last Friday night's open meeting.  I see no basis from the newcomer talks and parent talks that PFC places assumption that the clients need serious drug treatment.  No one mentioned that PFC was the cure for anything.  What I heard were some clients who were sharing past incidents about their using and parents who were proud of their children for earning higher levels, and relieved that their child was no longer using drugs since entering treatment.  That is not thanks to PFC, it is realistically the clients choice to use or not.  Clients are not restrained when trying to run as they may have been in the past.  Any client can walk out the door.  Please explain the above mentioned quote some more.  Maybe I missed something Friday night.

Thanks"

Are you kidding me? Pathway makes clients give a newcomer talk which revolves heavily around the clients "serious drug problem." Example: I missed school because of drugs. What assumptions are left to make besides, "Wow, this client really needs help." I was made to say the same things, but I didn't skip school because of drugs, I skipped school because I was a teenager. But of course, I was told that all my problems were because of drugs, and I'm sure that is how it is now at PFC.

They are also forced to recite a long list of drugs which they have used or experimented with. Here's mine: alcohol, marijuana, opium, lsd, mushrooms, perscription drugs, over the counter drugs, speed, inhalents. Now tell me that at first sight you're not like, "Wow, this kid has a problem." Well, at second glace, except for marijuana and alcohol, I don't think I did any of these drugs more than twice. I now use no drugs, except alcohol sometimes, and I am not an addict. My point is that these newcomer talks are set up to evoke a certain response from the listeners. If everyone around the newcomer is convinced that the client is an addict, the client will eventually be forced into believing it also. Don't question me here, because I have been through this same situation.

The parents stand up and give these sobby weepy stories about how horrible life was with their kid, and how they are so glad to get the much needed help. "Oh I couldn't believe that you lied to me. I know now that it was the drugs that made you do this, and I'm glad we found this program." People see these raw emotions from distraught parents, and the assumption has already been made that drugs caused the problems they were having with their child. Jesus Christ, who doesn't lie to their parents?

Of course Pathway presents parents with a "cure," otherwise they wouldn't be there. I can't believe that you would even argue that Pathway doesn't say that all their clients are serious drug addicts or alcoholics. Pathway advertises as an "intensive drug rehab." Of course the clients they accept are going to be told that they need "intensive drug rehab." I can't believe I even have to point this out!

On your point about clients not being restrained anymore, I was told that this is very true. BUT, clients ARE NOT told that they CAN leave anytime they want. It is still implied that one cannot make his/her own decisions until one reaches the age of 18. I don't even need to tell you this, because you can just ask staff. I did, and this is the answer I was given.

How can you say that it is the clients choice not to use? This was my situation, and I realize the rules were different, but I belive you will get my point. I was put in PFC when I was four months away from turning 18. I was under the assumption, no wait a minute, I was told that I could not leave. From watching the clients hit the floor and being bloodied up when they tried to leave, I wasn't going anywhere. (Please don't point out how PFC no longer does this. It doesn't make a difference). I figured that I would wait the four months, and then I would pull myself. PFC convinced my parents that if I were to leave PFC, they could not let me live with them, and they would not support me at all. I wasn't going to give up my parents, my brothers, a college education, my car, clothes etc. just to leave PFC. I turned around really quickly and realized I "needed" Pathway. This is how it was with everyone once they turned 18. Sure, they could leave, but where to?

I hope this answers your question a litlle better, and maybe you can answer a couple for me. Do you honestly believe that Pathway doesn't make the assumption that the clients admitted need serious drug treatment? Does PFC not outright friggin' say that the clients need serious drug treatment? If a client turns 18 and wants to leave, do the parents say, "All right Johnny, come on home?" Does PFC not influence parents decisions?

Thank you for your opinions and your time. EMSR

[nakid2003]

"Let's remember the national average for successful treatment of substance abuse is less than 10%. PFC's rate is far above that."


i am a former graduate of pathway family center and of course have heard of the wonderful things and statistics that pathway has, while i was in there of course. i once read that pathway had a seventy something success rate among graduates in the first 3-5 years upon release. first of all i have no fucken clue where they get their stats from to post them as if they did a real poll on them. but the thing is with all these statistics being thrown around the plain fact is the true results that are happening...if we were to go by "pathways" rule of thumb for what "success" is, these stats would be tossed out immediately. now i have no problem with people's personal decisions and what they choose to do with their life, let me make that clear. of all the people that i know of that have graduated that place...only a grand total of 6 have stayed "clean" up to that 3-5 year mark. and the ones who dont make it up to that mark dont even pass the 1 year success mark that pathway might say is a success. my personal belief is that pathway is NOT far above that 10% success rate and they have a very unfair system to judge the lives of former clients "success". but hell, what would i know chances are i would be thrown into that unhealthy, unsuccessful category since i never finished their aftercare program.

chris, the indykid

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140440607/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Tacitus, Roman senator and historian (A.D. c.56- c.115)

[Carmel]

I agree here...and would like to add that "success" is also a broad term because for those of us who never were addicts to begin with, success by Straight/Pathway definition was not attained because we didnt stay "clean".  We were told if we ever took another drink or drug, that we would die.  I am not dead folks...not by a long shot, but I will never be part of Straight/Pathway's success rate.

I drink occasionally and smoke sometimes too, but I am no addict...never was.  I have a beautiful family, home and a great job....but because I have a glass of wine with my dinner on Saturday night, makes me a Straight failure.

As far as the way I treated my parents, well...what would anyone have done if their father was MIA and their mother couldnt even pay for their school photographs because their step-dad blew her pay on the bar every night.  Talk about alcoholic....HE should have been in the damn program.  It pisses me off when parents act so damn righteous about how their kid "mistreats" them.  Here is where Anon can rightly say that they need to TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THEMSELVES. :wink:

[SurvivorEMSR]

Why is it that none of my questions are ever answered by PFC supporters? Anon, you made an argument against me, and then you never defended it! I try to show a little bit of an open-mind to the changes that have come about in PFC, but you supporters seem to washed to hear any of the blatant facts that we give you.

Tell me this. If Pathway is such a great place, why is it about to close down? Once again, I was told by very reliable sources that PFC is close to done. The Indy PFC has many many problems, and Southfield PFC is out of money. I was up there on friday, and there were about fifteen clients. Fifteen! I have known Pathway since 1999 and there has never been that few.

Well, you know what, I'm done keeping an open-mind. It gets me nowhere with you people. Pathway is at its end, and it needs to be shut down. I believe that due to the changes this site has sparked at Pathway, we also have the power to put it out of business indefinitely. By pissing everyone on this site off all the time, you are not helping PFC stay alive. Can't you see you are fighting a losing battle? PFC has no time left. These recent changes are a last struggle to keep Pathway afloat. Pathway is in big trouble, and regardless of how many insulting messages you send me, PFC will remain in trouble until its dying day.

MetalGod, you are absolutely right. If anyone at Pathway wants to defend themselves, this website is available 24 hours a day. As I can see that keeping an open-mind and defending the changes at PFC seems to not affect the ridiculous arguments of supporters, I will cease doing so. I want retribution for the 26 months of HELL I spent at Pathway. EMSR

[butternationalist]

ED,
 if you were any closer to the truth id have to slap you. I fully intend to watch them go down and ive got just the thing for it.
  Good show ole chap------smith :wave: