Author Topic: Thinking = the DEVIL  (Read 1908 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Thinking = the DEVIL
« on: June 30, 2008, 11:05:51 PM »
Damn... guess my login info was lost. Well I was "Awake" but can't login. And it looks like the last 3 months of posts are gone too. Unfortunate because there was some informative conversations going on. Well, I remember at least one thread that had some great remarks.

BlownAway started the Thinking = the Devil thread and I think should be adressed again.

At CEDU it was common to be attacked for being "in your head" or "in your thinking" or "letting your thinking control you". As I recall, BlownAway said, it was always "I" that put drugs into "ME's" body. The "thinking" was always responsible for all your bad actions.

I remember some other comments that surmised that it was a necessity for CEDU to be able to attack the thinking of an individual (or group) in order for the students to take in their rediculous "tools" or teachings. In other words they knew that free thinking was a threat to the students' overall belief in their indoctrination process. If one doesn't trust their own thoughts my guess is that they are less likely to question what they are told.

Well if you haven't checked out liams site yet check it out.  The actual "I and Me" and "Summit" scripts... the ones they used AT CEDU!

http://liamscheff.com/daily/2008/06/20/ ... t-scripts/

         ????????????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 11:36:51 PM »
I came up with a theory regarding this concept.   Below is a description of what cognative dissonance is and how it can be used to change one's beliefs. Essentially when a person performs an action that contradicts their belief system it creates dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling when a person begins to understand that something the person believes to be true is, in fact, not true. The brain responds by attempting to adapt their belief system so that their actions and beliefs are in balance. Another way to say that is, the brain begins THINKING in order to come up with a solution to this moral dilemma. Long/short I believe that CEDU recognized that THINKING had to be destroyed in order to keep the students believing in their rediculous teachings. Otherwise their "tools" would easily have been trumped by any moderately intelligent person, hence the need for the lesson in the I and ME. Teach the students to attack their own thinking by yelling and screaming at the floor until that "uncomfortable feeling" goes away.
    I'll also note this isn't a new concept. In the book "Cults in our midst" pg. 177 it discusses a psychotherapy cult with the odd name "Dr.
Tim". And I'll quote, "No criticism or complaints were tolerated by Tim, who said such complaining indicated "being in your head" rather than "in your feelings." Anything other than feeling was labeled "being in your stuff" and considered an indication of mental disorder."  The connection between CEDU and Dr. Tim seems a little too close for comfort to me. We already know Mel Wasserman applied synanon style "therapy" and it looks as if he lifted more material from other cults as well.

Cognitive Dissonance
Description
This is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two
conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.

Dissonance increases with:

·       The importance of the subject to us.

·       How strongly the dissonant thoughts conflict.

·       Our inability to rationalize and explain away the conflict.

Dissonance is often strong when we believe something about ourselves and
then do something against that belief. If I believe I am good but do
something bad, then the discomfort I feel as a result is cognitive
dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is a very powerful motivator which will often lead us
to change one or other of the conflicting belief or action. The discomfort
often feels like a tension between the two opposing thoughts. To release the
tension we can take one of three actions:

·       Change our behavior.

·       Justify our behavior by changing the conflicting cognition.

·       Justify our behavior by adding new cognitions.

Dissonance is most powerful when it is about our self-image. Feelings of
foolishness, immorality and so on (including internal projections during
decision-making) are dissonance in action.

If an action has been completed and cannot be undone, then the
after-the-fact dissonance compels us to change our beliefs. If beliefs are
moved, then the dissonance appears during decision-making, forcing us to
take actions we would not have taken before.

Cognitive dissonance appears in virtually all evaluations and decisions and
is the central mechanism by which we experience new differences in the
world. When we see other people behave differently to our images of them,
when we hold any conflicting thoughts, we experience dissonance.

Dissonance increases with the importance and impact of the decision, along
with the difficulty of reversing it. Discomfort about making the wrong
choice of car is bigger than when choosing a lamp.

Note: Self-Perception Theory gives an alternative view.

Research
Festinger first developed this theory in the 1950s to explain how members of
a cult who were persuaded by their leader, a certain Mrs Keech, that the
earth was going to be destroyed on 21st December and that they alone were
going to be rescued by aliens, actually increased their commitment to the
cult when this did not happen (Festinger himself had infiltrated the cult,
and would have been very surprised to meet little green men). The dissonance
of the thought of being so stupid was so great that instead they revised
their beliefs to meet with obvious facts: that the aliens had, through their
concern for the cult, saved the world instead.

In a more mundane experiment, Festinger and Carlsmith got students to lie
about a boring task. Those who were paid $1 felt uncomfortable lying.

Example
Smokers find all kinds of reasons to explain away their unhealthy habit. The
alternative is to feel a great deal of dissonance.

So what?
Using it
Cognitive dissonance is central to many forms of persuasion to change
beliefs, values, attitudes and behaviors. The tension can be injected
suddenly or allowed to build up over time. People can be moved in many small
jumps or one large one.

Defending
When you start feeling uncomfortable, stop and see if you can find the inner
conflict. Then notice how that came about. If it was somebody else who put
that conflict there, you can decide not to play any more with them.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/t ... onance.htm

                                                                           
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline The Fornits

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 12:03:27 AM »
I was first introduced to the concept of cognitive dissonance in Straight, Inc. in around `80 or `81 when they incorporated a warped version of Rational Self Analysis and Rational Self Therapy. I'm trying to remember the name of the pshrink who came up with it cause he was scheduled as a keynote speaker at the Bathesda conference in 2000 but begged off at the last minute due to illness. Maltsby or something?

Anyway, the way they explained it to us then was that cognitive dissonance was the uncomfortable feeling that comes with change; with adopting some new belief or behavior. The word change itself was highly vaunted in Seed/Straight lingo. If somebody stood you up in group and said "I see you changing a lot..." that was a load off cause it meant you were getting 'positive feedback' (not sure feedback was the word... help anybody?) and not confronted.

Ayeah, I'd say some of the spooky people pulling the strings behind the scenes were very well aware of the concept and took pains to ensure that it's use in the RSA/RST lit didn't interfere with our programming.

Shit, that was me, Ginger, Antigen, not an admin post, obviously.

Ok, well, what's worth doing is worth doing well. I haven't got time to figure out the back end of this new set up right now and reassign the post so I'll just continue.

We also had a stated rule, repeated at least twice daily in rules rap, "No getting into your head" which basically meant no daydreaming or thinking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline dishdutyfugitive

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 01:52:25 AM »
HOly shit.

I'm 5 pages into this and all I can say is holy shit.....

I just read the page where it says,

"I = Yesterday, I = Tomorrow,  ME = Now, there is only now"

I specifically remember being troubled by this and more importantly capitulating to it. I specifically remember telling myself I was a bad person for thinking about the future, that I wasn't getting the program, etc etc. This 'tool', taught in the reckless manner that it was, was truly detrimental to a kid's development.

The concept in the Preambling carcass bullshit is ironic. "Silent voice?" Every day we had to silence our true selves and instead hypersaturate every square inch of our being in the kool aid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Awake

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 06:57:15 PM »
Yeah Dish. Thats what I think too.... holy shit. this one definitely sought to cross a few wires in the brain. I particularly like the part where it says

*Language is poor in feeling words.
*It is rich in intellectual words, abstract thoughts.
*I am (resposible)
*So, I and ME, when people are working, the language is being broken down.
> We only care about "Me" having a voice.

They took these basic words that allow the english language to function and re-defined them to mean I = thinking and
ME = feeling. What kind of mind fuckery is that? How could anyone who believed that hold down even the simplest conversation? or have an opinion?
 "I think this program is rediculous.... wait ... I THINK???... shit that must mean I'm living in the past or future..... which means I'm just a walking dead guy!!!!! Fuck you I!!! You make me feel angry!!!! Get out of my head!!! You're making me die! (scream at the floor, scream at the floor yadda yadda) There.... Me connect with feelings. Me alive again. Me live in the now."
  So you're taught to feel bad about yourself when you think? You're probably going to feel like a peice of shit the rest of your life.... and schizophrenic at that. Well it really DOES look like THINKING = THE DEVIL seeing as you had to go through an exorcism to get rid of it. Me brain hurt just thinking about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Awake

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 10:19:02 PM »
So I began to question this stuff even more. Specifically I believe CEDU can be categorized as a psychotherapy cult. The nature of a psychotherapy cult would be one that capitalizes on proven psychological facts regarding the way our brains operate. Well, the basic unit of thought is the word…. Right? What would thought be like without having been taught language? Isn’t language a program that we’ve learned that dictates our perception of the world and ourselves?
   
Before I get too deep here (and I’ll admit I don’t proclaim to KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt ANYTHING I’m saying, and welcome any other viewpoints) my point is to say that Cedu DID identify certain universal truths common amongst all people, but used them to implement insidious philosophies. I postulate that Cedu’s deception is not that “thinking” can’t be trusted. The REAL deception is “feeling” is the real you.

In the case of “Thinking vs. Feeling” as in the I and ME workshop (as well as the rest of Cedu  as an undercurrent in daily life there) I had to consider the prospect that thinking in fact COULD NOT be trusted. Perhaps our brains are “thinking machines” that urge us to respond in a “feeling” manner. Our brains create expectations out of life and those expectations are often not met OR exceeded, urging a positive or negative “feeling” response.

In conclusion, my opinion is that IF there is such a thing as conscious thought it is VERY rare, perhaps non-existent. But rather we ARE consciousness only inhabiting, experiencing, and completely at the mercy of this thing we call life. Consciousness independent of thought and feeling IS the real you….. just along for the ride.

On a different note as I recall, what we called “feeling” at Cedu (doing work, running your anger, sobbing, and even forced emotion) in the vast majority of cases was really a state of rage. A toxic, primal mix of emotions that came out all at once. In my case I believe any real “work” I did had to do with hating being at Cedu or hating my parents. But it was always accompanied by staff’s comments of “you’re feeling weak right now, aren’t you. Or. What’s really going on inside you? You’re forgetting your truth. What’s your little kid saying right now? Etc. etc.”  For me it seemed like it was for the intention of re-directing my feelings onto myself….. and it worked in some cases. What I remember of myself and others was entering an intense emotional state but confused as to where to direct the emotion…. Resulting in an almost thoughtless state of rage.

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline blownawaytheidahoway

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 07:09:44 AM »
shit, my original posts are gone! ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Life is a very wonderful thing.\' said Dr. Branom... \'The processes of life, the make- up of the human organism, who can fully understand these miracles?... What is happening to you now is what should happen to any normal healthy human organism...You are being made sane, you are being made healthy.
     \'That I will not have, \' I said, \'nor can understand at all. What you\'ve been doing is to make me feel very very ill.\'
                         -Anthony Burgess
                      A Clockwork Orange

Offline psy

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Re: Thinking = the DEVIL
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 08:03:47 AM »
Quote from: "blownawaytheidahoway"
shit, my original posts are gone! ???
I went through google's Cache, printed a few pages to PDF and uploaded them here.  This should about cover the missing posts.

http://www.fornits.com/docs/thinkingTheDevilP2.pdf
http://www.fornits.com/docs/thinkingTheDevilP3.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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