Author Topic: Define the Ideal TBS  (Read 9294 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Define the Ideal TBS
« on: February 18, 2008, 07:30:56 AM »
Continued from this thread:

Lets recap on our wish list:

#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the  therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents
#3 A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.



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« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 08:12:09 AM by TheWho »

Offline TheWho

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 07:39:26 AM »
Make it Simple wrote:
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Name faciliities that meets the first five and we can go on.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, we need to somehow get our hands on the schools procedures to see which of the items each school meets.  Ex-staff may be able to help us.  While we are waiting lets move forward.

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Provide a reference to any evidence statistic or study that suggests that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm.

It should be easy

I would like to finish with the TBS list first,  But I think it would be worth our time to develop one for wilderness also, good point.

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Otherwise you are defending something that appears to be a figment of your imagination.

Well that figment of my imagination did a lot to help my daughter as well as 1,000's of others.

 
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In teh absence of specifics you are making statements that are the equivalent of telling us that it is better to be rich and healthy then it is to be poor ans sick.

Well, who ever said that was on the mark.  It is also better to be a healthy, happy and well adjusted teenager than a sick, unhappy, at-risk teenager.


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This is simple who-
You go-don't quit now.

Yes it is.  One approach I was thinking of is we should develop this list up to 10 items which would define the ideal TBS (we should limit it to 10, what do you think?) , put them in order of importance and then try to rate TBS’s as they come up (for those items we know about for each school).  If we do our job here correctly (and raise the bar) there shouldn’t be any TBS’s which meet all our demands on the wish list… it should be something for all of them to strive for.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: where is the proof
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2008, 08:07:35 AM »
sorry who
When did we decide that we were distinguishing between wilderness programs and schools.  Not me. I keeo calling tehm facilities because the words you use to descrie one part of them is a loaded word.
YOu just changed the rules.
If we were only talking about schools we would have a different list that started with the faculty of the schools and consinued with who accredited them, the licensed teacher to student ratio, and we would not have had thelength of stay item - we would have talked about graduation rates but I think you know that.
You are being dishonest, who

I am waiting who! It is tiem for the list, statistics etc.

and while we are talking about dishonest lets see what you have done with the list.

I included an item that said - all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured.
I put it in because the reporting of child abuse should be a core value.  It should be a core value because while you talk about helping your daughter ( an anecdote witha  happy ending) I know of too many cases in which kids how were abused at home and developed problems as a result, primarily with their families. They were ,then  sent to facilities where there real diagnosis- whatever it was called- was that they were there as a result of the bad choices they made and would be helped by making good choices at the facility and as they made good choices that showed compliance they owuld gradually get more privileges.- (does that sound familiar and therapeutic -who?).
That is an awful thing to do to a kid that has been abused.  It doesn't lead to healing, and stabilization and all the other words you throw in because they sound medical but are just words-
Once you accept that what I have described happens and happens much too often to be acceptable then the weeding out of those kids and the identification and prosecution of the perpetrators has to be a core value that the facility educates their staff  of adolescents sent away who sever ties with their parents on their 18th birthday out of anger or the percentage  of kids that are cut off by their families because the facility told them they should (having rejected the facilities help) and you apparently can't tell me the number of families that feel helped and stabilized.

So here's my question who

Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
and one more thing who- please don't change the subject at the top so that it implies that there is an ideal tbs because that is dishonest too.  let's agree to have us both use the word facility to describe these places because that does not incude a value judgment about them.  hat sounds fair doesn't it who?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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Re: where is the proof
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2008, 08:31:24 AM »
Quote from: "make it simple"
sorry who

Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.

Quote
When did we decide that we were distinguishing between wilderness programs and schools.  Not me. I keeo calling tehm facilities because the words you use to descrie one part of them is a loaded word.
YOu just changed the rules.
If we were only talking about schools we would have a different list that started with the faculty of the schools and consinued with who accredited them, the licensed teacher to student ratio, and we would not have had thelength of stay item - we would have talked about graduation rates but I think you know that.
You are being dishonest, who

I was under the impression we were speaking about TBS’s.. remember?  We compared them to nursing homes and you didn’t like the word (Therapeutic) in front of boarding schools because you felt it was misleading.  If I thought you wanted to include wilderness I would have altered the list.
So at this point we can go back and start over and develop a list that satisfies both wilderness and TBS’s or we can continue and finish the TBS portion.

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I am waiting who! It is tiem for the list, statistics etc.

Whoa!! Slow down MIS.  Lets get the list(s) done first.

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and while we are talking about dishonest lets see what you have done with the list.

I included an item that said - all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured.
I put it in because the reporting of child abuse should be a core value.

Must have lost it when I moved it over.. I added it back in (see initial post).

Quote
It should be a core value because while you talk about helping your daughter ( an anecdote witha  happy ending) I know of too many cases in which kids how were abused at home and developed problems as a result, primarily with their families. They were ,then  sent to facilities where there real diagnosis- whatever it was called- was that they were there as a result of the bad choices they made and would be helped by making good choices at the facility and as they made good choices that showed compliance they owuld gradually get more privileges.- (does that sound familiar and therapeutic -who?).
That is an awful thing to do to a kid that has been abused.  It doesn't lead to healing, and stabilization and all the other words you throw in because they sound medical but are just words-
Once you accept that what I have described happens and happens much too often to be acceptable then the weeding out of those kids and the identification and prosecution of the perpetrators has to be a core value that the facility educates their staff  of adolescents sent away who sever ties with their parents on their 18th birthday out of anger or the percentage  of kids that are cut off by their families because the facility told them they should (having rejected the facilities help) and you apparently can't tell me the number of families that feel helped and stabilized.

We can add items to our list which will help alleviate your (our) concern about the above problems.
TBS’s should be a safe haven for these children and work towards rebuilding their self esteem and strengthening the family ties.

Quote
So here's my question who

Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
and one more thing who- please don't change the subject at the top so that it implies that there is an ideal tbs because that is dishonest too.  let's agree to have us both use the word facility to describe these places because that does not incude a value judgment about them.  hat sounds fair doesn't it who?

This didn’t start out as a wilderness discussion, go back and read from the beginning.  Lets finish the TBS list and then move on to wilderness (don’t sweat it we can do both)…… in the mean time if there are any staff that are reading this they may be able to help with the information we need to compare schools to our list.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2008, 08:36:02 AM »
sorry who- it doesn't work like that!

The list
The evidence, statistics etc.

you go
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2008, 08:48:23 AM »
Like I said we cant define a list until we know what each schools procedures are... If you have any of this information feel free to contribute (or anyone for that matter)

How about for number 7.  The school will provide periodic progress reports on how the child is doing in the program versus the initial plan.

This will allow the parent and child to get a better view on how far along they have progressed and what areas they are struggling with and/or areas that need more attention.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2008, 09:03:23 AM »
sorry who
 
You are not playing fair and I learned a long time ago not to play with cheaters. 

Because you are not being honest I am leaving but I will check back next sunday in the morning and see if you have provided the information that will allow a meaningful discussion and not just provide you with a platform.  The privilege you get is to have this back and forth but you have to earn it who by playing fair who.  I will give you another chance in a week.  Let's see if we can modify your behavior.

On a personal note this has been instructive for me.  It strengthens my resolve.

And one more thing- Congratulations Ginger. Who would have thought that you would be so successful that someone like who would be hired to do what he does here?  Amazing



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2008, 09:28:17 AM »
Quote from: "make it simple"
sorry who
 
You are not playing fair and I learned a long time ago not to play with cheaters.

I am sorry if you feel I have cheated.  Our entire discussion has been documented here for all to see.  I don’t see where there has been any dishonesty on my part.  I thought we have agreed up until item number 6, what happened?

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Because you are not being honest I am leaving but I will check back next sunday in the morning and see if you have provided the information that will allow a meaningful discussion and not just provide you with a platform.  The privilege you get is to have this back and forth but you have to earn it who by playing fair who.  I will give you another chance in a week.  Let's see if we can modify your behavior.

Behavior Mod!!  See it can be a good thing and it is part of everyday life.  Many here perceive it as a negative.   You may check back in a week but there will be no lists of schools, statistics provided by me unless someone provides them to me via email or posts them here on the forum.  If I do get them I will post them here on this thread for easy access.

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On a personal note this has been instructive for me.  It strengthens my resolve.

I think it has been a good exercise also……during your week you can maybe think ahead to start coming up with items you think we can put together to strengthen the wilderness industry.  I will move forward and finish this up on my own… thanks for your help MIS

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And one more thing- Congratulations Ginger. Who would have thought that you would be so successful that someone like who would be hired to do what he does here?  Amazing

I dont know Ginger well but if she were to hire anyone I know it would be someone who is less pro-program.  I think I would be the last one on her list of hires.


Stay safe and see you next week, MIS.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: where is the proof
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2008, 11:16:50 AM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.



This is also part of why everyone thinks you're such an asshole.  "Don't apologize"  (eye roll).  You know damn well he wasn't apologizing.  He was referring to how full of shit your answers are.  You come off as so condescending and holier than thou that we can't think anything but that you're an ass.


Name the programs you consider to be safe and effective for kids and the reasons why they are any different from the rest.  Your failure to be able to do so proves that not only are you an ass, but that you're a lying industry shill.

How 'bout ASR?  Are they some of the "good" programs you speak of?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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Ideal TBS
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2008, 12:15:28 PM »
Quote from: "Tired of the dodging"
Quote from: "TheWho"
Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.



This is also part of why everyone thinks you're such an asshole.  "Don't apologize"  (eye roll).  You know damn well he wasn't apologizing.  He was referring to how full of shit your answers are.  You come off as so condescending and holier than thou that we can't think anything but that you're an ass.


Name the programs you consider to be safe and effective for kids and the reasons why they are any different from the rest.  Your failure to be able to do so proves that not only are you an ass, but that you're a lying industry shill.

How 'bout ASR?  Are they some of the "good" programs you speak of?

MIS was just as rude to me as I was to her/him.  You only see one side of it.  This was never about listing schools.  If you go back to the beginning it was about listing requirements we felt would make an ideal TBS.  MIS started changing the course and asking for a list of schools that met the items we were listing… which of course we all know is impossible without having knowledge of the schools working procedures.. it would all be speculation.

If you read your own post, you come across arrogant and rude yourself and as far as I know we have never spoken before which shows a lack of character on your part.  If you would like to contribute to the conversation you are more than welcome but let’s keep the personal comments to yourself.

As far as ASR goes, I would say they are a good school.  I tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools but no one was interested or that they felt all schools were bad (black and white mentality) so this is not an area which interests many here on fornits.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2008, 12:18:49 PM »
Bullshit.  You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably.  You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2008, 12:26:57 PM »
Quote from: "fed up"
Bullshit.  You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably.  You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.

When we are done with the list my expectations would be that no TBS would meet all the requirements.  If the list is in fact "Ideal" then it should be a benchmark of a sort for all TBS's to strive towards (in our opinions), with the bar raised high.

Think of it as trying to design the "ideal" car... i.e.  getting 100 miles to the gallon, 500 horsepower etc... it is sort of a wish list which may or may not be attainable but is a representative snapshot of what customers may want.  Just because no cars meet the present "ideal" doesnt mean they are not good.  The same with this list we are coming up with....
Why does everything outside of trashing programs make everyone so angry... what is wrong with a thread that is a little proactive?


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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
Quote from: "fed up"
Bullshit.  You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably.  You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.

When we are done with the list my expectations would be that no TBS would meet all the requirements.



Well, duh!

Quote
Think of it as trying to design the "ideal" car... i.e. 

No.  I hate those analogies. 
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Ideal TBS
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 01:24:13 PM »
Quote from: "TheWho"
MIS was just as rude to me as I was to her/him.  You only see one side of it.  This was never about listing schools.

No, they weren't.  I've been watching since MIS' first post. 


 
Quote
If you go back to the beginning it was about listing requirements we felt would make an ideal TBS.  MIS started changing the course and asking for a list of schools that met the items we were listing… which of course we all know is impossible without having knowledge of the schools working procedures.. it would all be speculation.

Except for the ones that you consider to be good.  You keep saying you have personal knowledge of *good* schools.  If you do, in fact, then LIST THEM.  If not, then STFU.

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If you read your own post, you come across arrogant and rude yourself and as far as I know we have never spoken before which shows a lack of character on your part.  If you would like to contribute to the conversation you are more than welcome but let’s keep the personal comments to yourself.


Oh fuck off you sanctimonious piece of shit.  I'll make all the personal comments about you that I care to.

Quote
As far as ASR goes, I would say they are a good school.  I tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools but no one was interested or that they felt all schools were bad (black and white mentality) so this is not an area which interests many here on fornits.


Wait, up there you said that a list would be pointless, but here you say that you've "tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools".  Make up your mind moron.
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Offline TheWho

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Re: Define the Ideal TBS
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 01:40:32 PM »
MIS was just as rude a thewho
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »