Ranch For Adopted Kids Gone Wild

[TheWho]

I think the bottom line is an inconclusive student study that has as an opinion on the part of the author that it COULD be good, but is now not good, is in no way evidence that something is good.

Also, a book about a program written by someone who went through it is not proof anything is good either.

WHY are we still discussing this, except two programmies trying to make a violin out of a fiddle?

Regardless of the outcome of the book it shows that these schools are not as secretive as people make them out to be.  I have read enough to know most of them have open doors and they let this guy in to run around freely for 16 months and then wrote about it.  Since the outcome wasnt all pretty it is obvious he wasnt working for the industry, but we already knew that thru his bio.

[TheWho]

Also, a book about a program written by someone who went through it is not proof anything is good either.

So what you are saying is living it for 16 months doesnt prove anything,  So the same logic must apply to the kids.  Their account cannot be taken seriously.

So who do we rely on for the truth?  The parents of the kids who attended?  Maybe they are more objective because they were not as emotionally involved?  You could have a point, but it neutralizes alot of opinions here on fornits if this is indeed true.

[Nihilanthic]

A single anecdote is not going to counter thousands of people saying the same thing that is contrary to his story. Preponderance of evidence. A cohesive story told for years by many vs a story by one.

Additionally, I seriously doubt that the program he went to was "open doors" and let him run around freely for 16 months. That is what we call BULLSHIT.

Lets get some other survivors from there to back it up. When one of the biggest complaints about programs is what amounts to coercion and brainwashing, a single story saying that "oh its not bad" doesn't really cut it. Ginger herself says she didn't know what was done to her was bad and wrong until she had been away from it long enough to know that it wasn't acceptable or even not bad.

[TheWho]

A single anecdote is not going to counter thousands of people saying the same thing that is contrary to his story. Preponderance of evidence. A cohesive story told for years by many vs a story by one.

Additionally, I seriously doubt that the program he went to was "open doors" and let him run around freely for 16 months. That is what we call BULLSHIT.

Lets get some other survivors from there to back it up. When one of the biggest complaints about programs is what amounts to coercion and brainwashing, a single story saying that "oh its not bad" doesn't really cut it. Ginger herself says she didn't know what was done to her was bad and wrong until she had been away from it long enough to know that it wasn't acceptable or even not bad.

Again Niles, you don’t know what you are talking about.  Sooner or later a student will come on here and tell you that he followed the group thru their time there and came and went as he pleased.  I know this because my daughter was attending at the same time and knew the other kids in the peer group he was following.  ASR had an open door policy for him.

Niles you never set foot in a program,,, why run around here doubting other peoples stories?  If people say they were abused.. listen to them.  If they say they were helped listen to them too.  We need to hear the stories of the people who spent time in these places.  The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences.  These are the ones that really count the most!!  If you start discarding firsthand accounts because of what you think you want to hear you are doing yourself and everyone else here on a fornits a great injustice....  read, listen and learn Niles!!  You cant help others if you close yourself off from listening.


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[Anne Bonney]

The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences.

No.  They're second hand at best, seeing as he wasn't enrolled in the program and wrote about his impression of 4 other individuals' experiences. 

[TheWho]

The guy wrote a book on his first hand experiences.

No.  They're second hand at best, seeing as he wasn't enrolled in the program and wrote about his impression of 4 other individuals' experiences. 

Yes, they would be first hand experiences and second hand experiences.  He wrote in boh tenses.

[Anonymous]

Who, I agree with Anne.  If a survivor wrote a book it would be all first hand information.  The Marcus book is a combination of first hand and second hand.  He wrote the book from the viewpoint of being inside a program and could experience some of the aspects of what was going on, observe whether kids were being abused or happy or sad and interview them at various stages in their stay, but he didnot go thru the entire experience himself because he could go away at night if he pleased and as not working on any personal issues.
There was another book that was written called “Help at all cost” ,I think, by a Mai Szlavitz.  I use to see it here.  This is an example of a book written with just second hand information.

[TheWho]

Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up.   Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information.  But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information. 



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[Anne Bonney]

Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up.   Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information.  But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information. 

He can write about his first hand observations of the students, but he cannot....in any way, shape or form........write a first hand account of what its like to be inside one of those places, with no due process, no recourse, restricted/monitored/censored communication with family and no chance of leaving without conforming.  Until he does two years or so exactly as the kids did, he can't speak for shit except what he observed.  And believe me, that's vastly different from what the kids experience.

[TheWho]

Oh, I agree, thanks for clearing that up.   Any book which is reporting information from interviews is considered second hand information.  But as you mentioned Marcus is also reporting and writing about first hand information. 

He can write about his first hand observations of the students, but he cannot....in any way, shape or form........write a first hand account of what its like to be inside one of those places, with no due process, no recourse, restricted/monitored/censored communication with family and no chance of leaving without conforming.  Until he does two years or so exactly as the kids did, he can't speak for shit except what he observed.  And believe me, that's vastly different from what the kids experience.

Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing.  The author can comment on the mechanics of the program.  The way the kids act, what they are fed, types of meals, punishments used, structure, number of kids in a room, hours spent in school, free time etc.  Which would be communicated to the reader as something like “There were between 8 and 12 children per peer group and the children would go thru the steps of the program together…”.  He can also communicate what the children said by quoting them…they could be phrased like.... Bianca was upset when she emerged from her therapy session shouting “I would be better off dead then in this place!!”…….. Michael who was placed at ASR for self mutilation and dropping out of school was set to graduate in 3 weeks.  He couldn’t stop talking about getting home and trying to get back to school….. in group last week Michael said “I know I am thinking too far ahead but I would really like to build boats and eventually build a boat for myself so I need to get back to school.  I think I can still graduate with my class if I go to school during the summer.”





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[Anne Bonney]

Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing.

No, WE're not.  Not at all.  Whoever is doing the observing, isn't seeing what happens behind closed doors.  Just as the parents who think they know about programs because they have a kid that they shipped off to one don't know either.  No one can know unless you're trapped there, just like the kids.  No one can know the fear, anxiety, shame, guilt and terror that is felt.....either by physical or psychological abuses that inevitably happen in what's commonly referred to as 'group therapy' sessions (raps/profeets or any of the LGAT-type 'therapeutic community' 'positive peer pressure' techniques.  They're abusive in their very nature).

[TheWho]

Exactly, I think we are all saying the same thing.

No, WE're not.  Not at all.  Whoever is doing the observing, isn't seeing what happens behind closed doors.  Just as the parents who think they know about programs because they have a kid that they shipped off to one don't know either.  No one can know unless you're trapped there, just like the kids.  No one can know the fear, anxiety, shame, guilt and terror that is felt.....either by physical or psychological abuses that inevitably happen in what's commonly referred to as 'group therapy' sessions (raps/profeets or any of the LGAT-type 'therapeutic community' 'positive peer pressure' techniques.  They're abusive in their very nature).

Wow!!!  Relax Anne.... Read the book!!

[Anne Bonney]

Look, unless he spent the time there exactly as the kids did, he CANNOT KNOW what it felt like and what the long term ramifications are, fully.  Just like the parents CANNOT EVER KNOW fully what they experienced. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?


 As I've said many times here before, when I got out of Straight I was singing their praises telling everyone that it saved my life.  When people would ask me about abuse, I laughed because I had no idea, YET, the depths of what had been done to me.  I didn't consider it abuse.  I would parrot the same tired lines that you still hear to this day regarding these 'new and improved' mindrape mills.  I needed that tough love!!  Afterall, I had gotten myself into this mess, right?  My brain needed a little washing, right?  It was all for my own good, right?  The raps were really designed just to help me 'get in touch with my feelings', right?




Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[TheWho]

Look, unless he spent the time there exactly as the kids did, he CANNOT KNOW what it felt like and what the long term ramifications are, fully.  Just like the parents CANNOT EVER KNOW fully what they experienced. Are you saying you disagree with that statement?

No one is disputing that.  Marcus never claimed he knew what the kids felt or indicated/ predicted any long term effects or outcome.  He was writing about the ins and outs of a TBS from his point of view.

[Nihilanthic]

You know this entire load of shit could be eliminated with a simple fix of making thinsg open and transparent.

Yeah. Don't lock them up in the middle of nowhere incommunicado and make a point of isolating them, and this shit won't happen because they won't be able to HIDE this shit. There is no need while in 'therapy' to keep someone isolated and incommunicado.

But, well, then it wouldn't be a program anymore.